Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

Ah yes, the "first-time-in-history, therefore does not need to follow any known principles of physics" argument.
What law do you believe was "violated"?
Because it looks like heat-compacted material to me. It also looks like it's folded over on itself. It does not even remotely look like four compacted floors.

The office papers squeezed into the lump proves that the lump was never subjected to extreme temperatures.

These compressed floors are described in two other places that I know of. Nobody with first-hand exposure to them seems to be the slightest bit surprised.

Is everyone lying?
 
Diagrams of the floor structure do not indicate the 4" thick concrete floors had rebar.
In the NIST model documents, Correct.

Photos later produced by beach, IIRC show that the steel was not rebar, but reinforcing steel as part of a supportive mesh system.
Incorrect.

NCSTAR 1-6B p.28 (among other pages)

Yes, it is odd that the double layer of mesh and the rebar were not included within diagrams of the floor structure elsewhere in the report.

Read earlier...

TAM:)
Ahem.
 
Does anybody else have trouble understanding Beachnut? Or is it just my "poor research skills"?
:)

You missed a chance to debunk me, and post this photo. There is some rebar in the floor.
1rebarwithwiremesh.jpg

Chair hold the wire mesh, then rebar is set, then another layer of mesh, and some rebar. And they use 18 gauge wire to tie things before pouring the concrete.

In the meteorite you can see many of these items in the smashed up 3 or 4 floors which have no melted steel, just office junk, floors, and support trusses.

What was your point in the first place? OH?
...
To suggest that this is four compacted floors (again, unsourced) is ridiculous at best. Look at how thick the rebar is compared to what was supposedly four complete WTC storeys. But my main question is, where does the rebar come from?
It is 3 or 4 floors. The rebar is in the floor with the wire mesh, proves the meteorite is 3 or 4 floors, it helps to know there is paper from the floors in the floors smashed together.

You could have debunk me, showed us the wire mesh and tied in rebar, and realize you were wrong about it not being 4 floors.

Did you finally research the jumpers to see it was true, the explosive sounds were from bodies hitting the ground? You have been give many source to prove it.
 
You should keep in mind that not all floors of the WTC were constructed as lightweight concrete and welded wire fabric over thin metal pans. The beam-framed floors were considerably thicker. I don't recall if they had more traditional rebar, but it's possible.

There is certainly no evidence of "melted steel" in the "meteorite," which is what the nutters usually claim. Frankly I'm not sure what they expected to find.
 
You should keep in mind that not all floors of the WTC were constructed as lightweight concrete and welded wire fabric over thin metal pans. The beam-framed floors were considerably thicker. I don't recall if they had more traditional rebar, but it's possible.

There is certainly no evidence of "melted steel" in the "meteorite," which is what the nutters usually claim. Frankly I'm not sure what they expected to find.
Like you said, the Mech floors were beefed up. The rebar on standard floors looks like it was used to tie things together and keep things in place during the concrete pour. I think the Mech floors might of had more rebar, or what ever is set up to increase the strength.
 
Where is the office furniture in this "meteorite"? Furniture which we would see in any other natural building collapse. Not whole, of course. In pieces. Smashed up, etc... but it would be there. I don't know of any natural building collapse that would create "meteorites" that could completely compress four floors int--how many inches is this? Do you?

If there's any furniture in there, it's been compressed very, very thinly, because wood is a lot softer than concrete. We know there are bits of paper in the meteorite, also compressed between slabs of concrete and sticking out of the edges in places. The laws of physics are pretty clear on the fact that, when very hard objects collide at very high speeds - in this case, lumps of concrete colliding at hundreds of kilometres per hour - there are very large forces between them. Most office furniture these days is made of chipboard, which is pretty soft stuff, and will basically compress into sawdust - because that's what it is. So, place a sheet of chipboard against a big block of concrete, and slam another block of concrete into it at a hundred or so mph - are you expecting to see much left? I'm not.

Dave
 
This post got moved to AAH as part of a derail. I'm reposting in case anyone wants a link to the 1964 reference to the famous '600 mph' figure.

AFAIK this is the original reference.It's apparently a statement written by Richard Roth, of the Emery Roth & Son architectural firm. It was apparently part of a battle of words between groups which opposed the construction of the proposed WTC towers and those who were in support.

Skillings1.png

Skillings2.png

Skillings3.png


No details of any such study were ever produced, nor is there evidence from the designer of the towers that anything was published. One of the Chief Engineers, Leslie Robertson specifically recalled it being a low-flying, slow flying aircraft scenario. There was no reason for them to envision a full-speed impact, as the scenario involved a jet off-course while trying to land at La Guardia airport.

Common sense tells us that Robertson's recollection is probably accurate.

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/15/nyregion/15WTC.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/the-height-of-ambition.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
 
This post got moved to AAH as part of a derail. I'm reposting in case anyone wants a link to the 1964 reference to the famous '600 mph' figure.

AFAIK this is the original reference.It's apparently a statement written by Richard Roth, of the Emery Roth & Son architectural firm. It was apparently part of a battle of words between groups which opposed the construction of the proposed WTC towers and those who were in support.

[qimg]http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p211727/Skillings1.png[/qimg]
[qimg]http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p211728/Skillings2.png[/qimg]
[qimg]http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p211729/Skillings3.png[/qimg]

No details of any such study were ever produced, nor is there evidence from the designer of the towers that anything was published. One of the Chief Engineers, Leslie Robertson specifically recalled it being a low-flying, slow flying aircraft scenario. There was no reason for them to envision a full-speed impact, as the scenario involved a jet off-course while trying to land at La Guardia airport.

Common sense tells us that Robertson's recollection is probably accurate.

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/15/nyregion/15WTC.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/magazine/the-height-of-ambition.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

MM seemed to be conflating the 1200 page preliminary structural analysis with the aircraft impact study refered to in point 3. Without the actual study in hand there's no way of knowing what parameters were used or how extensive the study was/

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6466794#post6466794

Your passage is anecdotal at best and presents Robertson as resentful of Skilling's stature.

The fact remains, that the NIST acknowledged the documentation supporting the research and analysis into the effects of aircraft impacts.

Your efforts to dismiss the NIST reference to "1,200 pages and involve over 100 detailed drawings." as a mere brochure, are very disingenuous.

MM

Plus ,thanks to Pf911t, we know airliners can't fly at 600mph at sea level without breaking up so why would anyone design for it?

;)
 
We've been over this issue thousands of times.

There was a simple analysis done to assess such an unlikely, high-speed impact.

It showed the structure would be likely to survive the impact. It, however, was done in the 60's on only a few pages of paper. It's what's called a "back of envelope" estimate, or a Rough Order of Magnitude, because you really can't carry out such a complex calculation with pen and slide rule. To do it right, you need to model details, manage thousands of model elements, vary hundreds of material parameters, treat lots of impact angles and locations, and so on. This was finally done in 2005 by Purdue University and cost millions of dollars, required supercomputers, and took lots of grad student labor.

You can perform a similar ROM calculation to show that a human being is likely to survive being shot by a .22. Which is true. But don't get shot by a .22. Your odds of survival are good, but they are NOT guaranteed.

The original simple calculation did not include the fire. Just the impact. As has been noted, the Towers survived both impacts. The fire is what did them in.

The original calculation is not evidence that the Towers were designed to survive such an impact. If I crash a car at 100 MPH and survive, it doesn't mean the car was designed to such specs. It just means that it performed better than expected. There was never any requirement to survive a high-speed impact, so says Leslie Robertson, the guy who's job it was to verify those requirements.

Finally, even if all the above was not the case, it does not prove the Towers were destroyed by make-believe. It would only mean the calculation was wrong. Engineers make mistakes and science gets better over time. When our calculations don't agree with reality, we fix the calculations, not stamp our feet and scream that reality is wrong.

Unless we're Truthers.

Let's table this one, please? It was stupid in 2005 and it's stupid now.
 
We've been over this issue thousands of times.

There was a simple analysis done to assess such an unlikely, high-speed impact.

It showed the structure would be likely to survive the impact. It, however, was done in the 60's on only a few pages of paper. It's what's called a "back of envelope" estimate, or a Rough Order of Magnitude, because you really can't carry out such a complex calculation with pen and slide rule. To do it right, you need to model details, manage thousands of model elements, vary hundreds of material parameters, treat lots of impact angles and locations, and so on. This was finally done in 2005 by Purdue University and cost millions of dollars, required supercomputers, and took lots of grad student labor.

You can perform a similar ROM calculation to show that a human being is likely to survive being shot by a .22. Which is true. But don't get shot by a .22. Your odds of survival are good, but they are NOT guaranteed.

The original simple calculation did not include the fire. Just the impact. As has been noted, the Towers survived both impacts. The fire is what did them in.

The original calculation is not evidence that the Towers were designed to survive such an impact. If I crash a car at 100 MPH and survive, it doesn't mean the car was designed to such specs. It just means that it performed better than expected. There was never any requirement to survive a high-speed impact, so says Leslie Robertson, the guy who's job it was to verify those requirements.

Finally, even if all the above was not the case, it does not prove the Towers were destroyed by make-believe. It would only mean the calculation was wrong. Engineers make mistakes and science gets better over time. When our calculations don't agree with reality, we fix the calculations, not stamp our feet and scream that reality is wrong.

Unless we're Truthers.

Let's table this one, please? It was stupid in 2005 and it's stupid now.

I don't disagree with your sentiment. I was only trying to give someone a direct link to it.
 
2002-2006
------------
Truther: WTC1/2 were brought down via Controlled Demolition

2007-2010
-------------
Debunkers: CD is done via explosives at the based of the building.
Truther: WTC1/2 were brought down via UNCONVENTIONAL NONSTANDARD Controlled Demolition.

Stanadard Truther Protocol...modify your accusations to fit the ever shrinking wiggle room.

TAM:D


This always makes me laugh. "WTC 7 looked exactly like traditional controlled demoltion!" when controlled demolition isn't traditionally performed in buildings that are on fire.
 
This always makes me laugh. "WTC 7 looked exactly like traditional controlled demoltion!" when controlled demolition isn't traditionally performed in buildings that are on fire.
LOL! Only the twoofers would disregard that elephant in the room..did a spit take reading that!
 

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