Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

[beachnut]

I think Thermite was needed, or else the towers would not have started collapsing so precisely at the impact zones as they did. Ordinary office fire would not have weakened the steel much.

Ordinary office fires have more heat energy than thermite. You lost this one try again.

Bringing thermite to a large office fire, is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

[Disbelief]

I've linked to these several times in this thread and even provided some excerpts.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html

Really? There are people in the excerpts that talk about the 1993 bomb. How about you provide the specific quotes, as I can't seem to find them. Here is the only one I could find:

I didn't have any notions of where to put blame per se, but I remember thinking that it was possibly the same organization who tried to blow up the building back in 1993.

Where is the comparison in this quote? Where does she desccribe the explosions sounding like the 1993 bombing as you contend?

 

[triforcharity]

I think Thermite was needed, or else the towers would not have started collapsing so precisely at the impact zones as they did. Ordinary office fire would not have weakened the steel much.

Why do you think that? Unprotected steel would begin to loose it's strength at 1000 deg. F. At 1800 deg. F (The average temperature in an office fire) the steel would become very soft, and loose most of it's strength.
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...es/strucfire/materialInFire/Steel/default.htm

You wanna keep on this argument from personal ignorance?

 

[Anders Lindman]

The impacts themselves had no bearing on the structural integrity either, nice find.

The 'cookie cutter' holes of planes would have made the structure weaker but not enough I think. Thermite was needed to make the steel infrastructure weak enough on at least one floor.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Ordinary office fires have more heat energy than thermite. You lost this one try again.

Bringing thermite to a large office fire, is like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

But ordinary office fire would not produce enough heat to make the steel very weak. Thermite was needed for that.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Why do you think that? Unprotected steel would begin to loose it's strength at 1000 deg. F. At 1800 deg. F (The average temperature in an office fire) the steel would become very soft, and loose most of it's strength.
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/pr...es/strucfire/materialInFire/Steel/default.htm

You wanna keep on this argument from personal ignorance?

They had to make the steel very weak. That's what the Thermite was used for.

 

[Sabretooth]

They had to make the steel very weak. That's what the Thermite was used for.

Just stop. You are seriously making yourself look like a fool. Go read a book.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Just stop. You are seriously making yourself look like a fool. Go read a book.

But things like "lose most of its strength" isn't enough! Buildings like that surely must be built at least 5 times the needed strength to withstand decades of aging, severe hurricanes and minor earthquakes. So losing 51% of the steel's strength isn't enough. AND the fire could not possibly have made the steel equally weak everywhere. And since steel is a very good heat conductor you need Thermite do cause enough weakness on some floor.

 

[TJM]

The 'cookie cutter' holes of planes would have made the structure weaker but not enough I think. Thermite was needed to make the steel infrastructure weak enough on at least one floor.

"Cookie cutter", that's interesting terminology. So technically, you're saying that plane shaped holes in the buildings appeared. Then what? Would you please expand on that? What happened next? I find this fascinating!

 

[Anders Lindman]

"Cookie cutter", that's interesting terminology. So technically, you're saying that plane shaped holes in the buildings appeared. Then what? Would you please expand on that? What happened next? I find this fascinating!

I can only speculate about that, but yes, I believe the impact holes were made by shape charges, and tons of kerosene used to create the fireball explosions then Thermite together with the office fire started to melt and soften the steel on those floors. When the steel was soft enough, they triggered massive explosions under the basements of the towers which caused the core columns (who were designed to collapse in case of a severe earthquake) to snap apart, and after about 10 seconds the towers started to collapse at the weakened floors.

It was not easy to synchronize the fireball explosion in the second 'plane impact' in real-time with faked live video broadcasts by the large television networks. The live video feeds to the TV stations went through a centralized media control center where the live video feeds were delayed about 5 seconds, in order to synchronize the fake 2D computer graphics silhouettes with the fireball explosion.

 

[Anders Lindman]

I can only speculate about that, but yes, I believe the impact holes were made by shape charges, and tons of kerosene used to create the fireball explosions then Thermite together with the office fire started to melt and soften the steel on those floors. When the steel was soft enough, they triggered massive explosions under the basements of the towers which caused the core columns (who were designed to collapse in case of a severe earthquake) to snap apart, and after about 10 seconds the towers started to collapse at the weakened floors.

It was not easy to synchronize the fireball explosion in the second 'plane impact' in real-time with faked live video broadcasts by the large television networks. The live video feeds to the TV stations went through a centralized media control center where the live video feeds were delayed about 5 seconds, in order to synchronize the fake 2D computer graphics silhouettes with the fireball explosion.

Also notice that this is ALL the initial perpetrators needed to do. All the messy cover-up needed after that, they could ignore. Why do the messy cover-up yourself when you can get the entire U.S. government to do it for you, because the Bush administration could simply not let the public know the truth without it risk having a catastrophic effect on the entire nation.

 

[TJM]

I can only speculate about that, but yes, I believe the impact holes were made by shape charges, and tons of kerosene used to create the fireball explosions then Thermite together with the office fire started to melt and soften the steel on those floors. When the steel was soft enough, they triggered massive explosions under the basements of the towers which caused the core columns (who were designed to collapse in case of a severe earthquake) to snap apart, and after about 10 seconds the towers started to collapse at the weakened floors.

It was not easy to synchronize the fireball explosion in the second 'plane impact' in real-time with faked live video broadcasts by the large television networks. The live video feeds to the TV stations went through a centralized media control center where the live video feeds were delayed about 5 seconds, in order to synchronize the fake 2D computer graphics silhouettes with the fireball explosion.

So you're a no-planer who also is a proponent of the thermite-controlled demolition scenario? Please continue!

 

[Dog Town]

... when you can get the entire U.S. government to do it for you,...

You seem to be clueless, about what that word means!

 

[Anders Lindman]

So you're a no-planer who also is a proponent of the thermite-controlled demolition scenario? Please continue!

The short summary is pretty much it. Of, course a lot of details have to be explained without bringing in too far-fetched ideas (it's pretty much far-out already as it is ). For example, it's clear that many people were working in those office floors on 9/11. So how could they have rigged those floors with TONS of kerosene and Thermite without the ordinary people working there noticing it when they went to work that morning? My answer is that only a few floors, say one or two in each tower would have been needed to be rigged with Thermite and kerosene. Those floors could have been sealed off and therefore be empty of people. But I haven't researched that fully.

 

[BigAl]

The short summary is pretty much it. Of, course a lot of details have to be explained without bringing in too far-fetched ideas (it's pretty much far-out already as it is ). For example, it's clear that many people were working in those office floors on 9/11. So how could they have rigged those floors with TONS of kerosene and Thermite without the ordinary people working there noticing it when they went to work that morning? My answer is that only a few floors, say one or two in each tower would have been needed to be rigged with Thermite and kerosene. Those floors could have been sealed off and therefore be empty of people. But I haven't researched that fully.

I'm too lazy to do much research myself.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6347434#post6347434

You are a no-planer. By this, you have demonstrated the inability to judge evidence and logic.

 

[leftysergeant]

The short summary is pretty much it. Of, course a lot of details have to be explained without bringing in too far-fetched ideas (it's pretty much far-out already as it is ).

I knew you would eventually get something right. Half way , at least.

Sort of.

For example, it's clear that many people were working in those office floors on 9/11. So how could they have rigged those floors with TONS of kerosene and Thermite without the ordinary people working there noticing it when they went to work that morning?

No way in hell they could.

My answer is that only a few floors, say one or two in each tower would have been needed to be rigged with Thermite and kerosene. Those floors could have been sealed off and therefore be empty of people. But I haven't researched that fully.

Nope. You still need vast quantities of explosives to expell the kerosene out every opening that the jets made. No way that anyone is going to mistake that for a jet impact.

Also, kerosene came out of several floors, and people were seen at the windows on all the impacted floors. Explosives adequate to drive the fireballs would have killed them. You still have the problem of two freaking HUGE holes in the towers that were clearly staved IN.

Utter FAIL.

 

[Anders Lindman]

You are a no-planer. By this, you have demonstrated the inability to judge evidence and logic.

But use Occam's razor. What is the simplest explanation? Four commercial airliners hijacked and flown with incredible speed and accuracy (well, except the one that plowed deep into the ground). Or, the scenario I have described?

 

[Bell]

But use Occam's razor. What is the simplest explanation? Four commercial airliners hijacked and flown with incredible speed and accuracy (well, except the one that plowed deep into the ground). Or, the scenario I have described?

Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Next!

 

[leftysergeant]

But use Occam's razor. What is the simplest explanation? Four commercial airliners hijacked and flown with incredible speed and accuracy (well, except the one that plowed deep into the ground).

The Pfft scenario came out of the wrong end of somebody's torso. The speeds are not that amazing. You have to be daft or suicidal to fly like that, but it can be done, for a little while. And the targets were not that much smaller than a typical runway, and you could not ask for a better day to fly. Great weather for flying by visual reconnaisance.

Or, the scenario I have described?

Yours is just not doable. You need suck-a-booms to make the entry holes, and those would have taken out most of the glass on the floors rigged, if you even had such a thing.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Also, kerosene came out of several floors, and people were seen at the windows on all the impacted floors. Explosives adequate to drive the fireballs would have killed them. You still have the problem of two freaking HUGE holes in the towers that were clearly staved IN.

That would be hard to explain with my theory I admit. Are you sure there were people on all of the impacted floors?