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Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

Anders Lindman said:
I said that I was guessing. I haven't researched that part.
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Based on what knowledge ?

What theory do you claim these cuts support?

Without proposing a theory that can be tested against all the science, engineering and evidence, yoy are just JAQing off.
 
BigAl said:
Based on what knowledge ?

What theory do you claim these cuts support?

Without proposing a theory that can be tested against all the science, engineering and evidence, yoy are just JAQing off.
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I'm just throwing out some hypotheses. I'm too lazy to do much research myself.
 
Anders Lindman said:
What explosives? They didn't need any explosives for the core columns. The explosives in the basements was all that was needed (plus the Thermite on a few floors higher up of course, but not for the core columns).
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There were no explosives in the basement, because the people in the basement were alive to talk about loud sounds. Explosives in a basement strong enough for your delusional claim are strong enough to kill everyone in the basement. They heard loud noises, no explosives. You are now spewing idiotic nonsense.
 
Anders Lindman said:
They could only have used torches for the steel work post-collapse. Anything else would have been impractical for cutting through such thick steel manually. I'm guessing, but tell me if I'm wrong.
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So what? I could show you cuts I've made that are much cleaner then anything shown. It all has to do with your set-up and technique. (Yes I do steel work)

You might also be interested to know I know guy's that worked the site.
 
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beachnut said:
There were no explosives in the basement, because the people in the basement were alive to talk about loud sounds. Explosives in a basement strong enough for your delusional claim are strong enough to kill everyone in the basement. They heard loud noises, no explosives. You are now spewing idiotic nonsense.
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My theory is that there were explosives going off in the basements of the towers around 10 seconds before the start of the collapse.
 
Java Man said:
Yes, so lets use the stricter definition used by you instead of the more relaxed definition used by me which encompasses the area within the streets.
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Sorry.

Handwave noted. In architectural and engineering circles the term footprint means inside the base of the building.

there is no "stricter" or "more relaxed" bandying of the defintion. It is what it is.

In those terms a footprint means inside the base of the building.

So by the agreed upon terms in engineering and architecture, the towers (and wtc7) did NOT fall into their own footprints.

Even by your "more relaxed" definition, they didn't as their debris pile was across 16 acres (about 4 city blocks). Now unless by your definition the footprint of a 1 acre building is 16 acres, it obviously fell outside of its footprint. wouldn't you agree?


That is pretty clear and I agree with it. A great deal of debris did find their final resting place well outside the footprint. But did they fall there from the heavens or did they pour outward like sand in an hour glass?
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ah... so now you are claiming that the collapse progressed straight down, and the debris poured out of the sides of the buildings? Is that correct?

I agree and disagree in almost equal measure. We can see the outer wall of the towers shearing off (or unzipping) from the trusses and falling outwards. It is what struck the winter gardens.

Considering the height of the WTC 1 and 2 towers compared to the surrounding building it is clear to see that the debris did not fall from the heavens straight on the building. They began to pile up and bounce outward causing the damage to the lower floors of the surrounding buildings.
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But then the collapse wasn't in its own footprint as it expanded outwards during the collapse progression and struck adjacent buildings.

I won't deny that a rogue piece of steel or two could have bounced outward during the last seconds of the fall. And that a lot of dust and small particles were projected outward.

But to say that great steel beams did not fall vertically down on their footprint is to say that something gave them enough energy to fly outward many hundred yards to fall acres away. Since we know that there were no explosives there's clearly not enough energy sources to project that material outward any significant amount of distance.
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Not quite. Any of the long assemblies could have easily toppled over and carried their connecting parts outwards.

a good example is a bag of spaghetti noodles. Open the bag, and then flip it over and drop it directly through the opening perpendicular (sp) on the counter tip... what happens to the spaghetti? Does it all just collapse into a neat pile (inside its footprint) or do the longre pieces on the outside fall outside?

Given the enormous amount of energy when reaching the floor it is understandable that there as debris pile up, some begin to bounce outward as they hit the pile and pour outward (thus explaining the damage to the lower parts of the surrounding buildings, which have minimal damage in the upper floors and rooftop). In that sense the towers did not find their resting place on the footprint, but rather on a wider area. But to claim that some piece of steel from floor 89 flew out and landed straight from heaven hundreds of yards away is to imply explosives.
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or a fulcrum arm on a long assembly.

so then how did wtc7 manage to strike fitterman hall on the roof and cause a partial collapse? I mean if it fell in it's (much looser defined ) footprint... was fitterman hall inside the footprint of wtc7?

So without any source of energy to project material outward at a significant speed the only way the building has to go is straight down. And what's straight down? It's footprint.
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Bad logic. The collapse propogated downwards. That is correct. But the collapse was not into its own footprint (as we have already defined that term).

the debris pile was much larger than the footprint 800% larger. with a debris pile and collapse zone that much larger, it is NOT its own footprint.

So please stop using the inaccurate and misleading term. it is incorrect, and does not apply to the collapse zone.
 
Anders Lindman said:
My theory is that there were explosives going off in the basements of the towers around 10 seconds before the start of the collapse.
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There is absolutely no evidence, eyewitness report or forensic science to support your assertion.

You are a no-planer. By this, you have demonstrated the inability to judge evidence and logic.
 
DGM said:
So what? I could show you cuts I've made that are much cleaner then anything shown. It all has to do with your set-up and technique. (Yes I do steel work)

You might also be interested to know I know guy's that worked the site.
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But wouldn't more work and care have to be put into the job to make clean cuts? I can imagine that the steel workers cut those columns without thinking too much about how tidy the cuts got.
 
Anders Lindman said:
They could only have used torches for the steel work post-collapse. Anything else would have been impractical for cutting through such thick steel manually. I'm guessing, but tell me if I'm wrong.
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You are wrong.

They used oxy torches and thermic lances in order to speed up the clean up.

The thermic lances make cuts exactly like those pictured.

You really should hone up your google fu.

or are all of your arguments based on incredulity and ignorance?
 
BigAl said:
There is absolutely no evidence, eyewitness report or forensic science to support your assertion.

You are a no-planer. By this, you have demonstrated the inability to judge evidence and logic.
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I posted a video before that shows how the camera shakes like from a massive explosion about 10 seconds before the North Tower starts to collapse. People claim that it's not from an explosion because there is no boom heard in the video. I'm not clear about it myself, but if it turns out that the origin time in the seismic data I have posted about really needs to be reduced by 17 seconds for the start of the collapse of the North Tower, then that matches the 10 second beforehand explosion.
 
TruthersLie said:
The thermic lances make cuts exactly like those pictured.
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Ok, then my guess was wrong. But notice that the idea with diagonal cuts being a part of the original design of the towers is just one example of how it could have been done.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Ok, then my guess was wrong. But notice that the idea with diagonal cuts being a part of the original design of the towers is just one example of how it could have been done.
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could have, would have, should have.

Now go and ask a steel worker if a thermic lance will make those cuts. Feel free.

I understand that you are too lazy to leave your moms basement, but try to get out more.

welcome to ignore.
 
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