Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

T.A.M. said:
the 3% multiple trauma, likely refers to more then one injury in a person (like a broken arm and a corneal abrasion).
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Or internal organ and pulmonary injuries.

The multiple traumas would have been included in the % of other injuries mentioned in the results. For instance, a multiple trauma of arm laceration and corneal abrasion would have been reported AS BOTH a laceration AND a corneal abrasion.
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I'm not sure this is true. And 15% is still not accounted for.
 
Java Man said:
Are you nuts? What type of lunatic speculation is that?

All I'm trying to establish if that blasts in the same region would have been heard the same from the ground below. Yes or no. And if not would it then have been louder or not. That is all. Where did you come up with the synchronized detonation idea?
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I took from your comparison of the two in the same line, that you were implying that the CD charges were set to go off at the time of impact, and they used the impact noise to mask them...trust me, I have seen more ridiculous things posted by your ilk.

However, since that was not your meaning, I apologize.

TAM:)
 
triforcharity said:
How long should the black boxes have stood up to the fires? What is your guess?

(PS, I know the answer already)
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Rating is 30 min @ 1100º C

Edit: that rating is to be usable. Obviously it can stand a lot more, but data may not be recoverable. Nevertheless it's a long shot from vaporizing into thin air.
 
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T.A.M. said:
this is laughable. Appeal to your own demented opinion and nothing more, noted.

TAM:)
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They also found a landing gear. Probably planted in one of the WTC towers and then made to project out from the building using explosives.
 
T.A.M. said:
I took from your comparison of the two in the same line, that you were implying that the CD charges were set to go off at the time of impact, and they used the impact noise to mask them...trust me, I have seen more ridiculous things posted by your ilk.

However, since that was not your meaning, I apologize.

TAM:)
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I accept your apology, thank you.

But you still haven't answered the question. What would your answer be?
 
Java Man said:
I accept your apology, thank you.

But you still haven't answered the question. What would your answer be?
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how loud something is, explosion or other wise, depends on many things, including distance from the explosion, the barrier between the ear and the explosion, so it is hard to say. I also have no idea how loud a typical jet impact or CD charge is, so my guess is completely uneducated and speculative, but I would guess a jet impact.

TAM:)
 
ergo said:
Or internal organ and pulmonary injuries.



I'm not sure this is true. And 15% is still not accounted for.
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yes, that 15% is why I would like to see the full report list. They state in the results, that the listed % are for MAJOR causes of morbidity.

This is why I would like Elmondo's link...much more thorough. This was discussed a few times before, about 2-3 years ago.

TAM:)
 
Anders Lindman said:
They also found a landing gear. Probably planted in one of the WTC towers and then made to project out from the building using explosives.
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another Appeal to your own uneducated imagination...well done. Like to go for a hat trick?

TAM:)
 
Java Man said:
Rating is 30 min @ 1100º C

Edit: that rating is to be usable. Obviously it can stand a lot more, but data may not be recoverable. Nevertheless it's a long shot from vaporizing into thin air.
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BZZZTTTT!!! It is actually, for SSDR, 1100 deg. C. for 60 minutes.

Now, how many hours were the fires burning at the WTC? Much more than 10 that is for sure.

BTW, here is the requirements.

Fire Protection and Impact

Crash Impact Test -- It has been agreed that 3400gs for 6.5 ms would be required to meet most accident scenarios. This test is actually performed with a cannon. A Fairchild CVR has survived a crash that was estimated to be more than 6000 gs.

Static Crush -- In this test, 5,000-pound pressure is applied against all six axis points.

Pierce Test -- A pierce test employs a 500-lb. weight dropped from 10 feet. It has been modified to be performed with a hardened steel pin.

Fire Test -- The devices are subjected to 1100 degrees Centigrade for 60 minutes, then undergo 10 hours at 260 degrees Centigrade. Because of its outstanding fire survival record, the Fairchild Model A100CVR was used as the model to insure mandated standards could be obtained. The very latest FAA standards require the fire test to be expanded to 1 hour at 1100 degrees Centigrade. which all solid state models of L-3 Recorders meet or exceed

From here

http://www.l-3ar.com/html/history.html

BTW, one beam from WTC falling on them, would exceede it's crush test without breaking a sweat.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Then could you check the following claim?

"I am an A&P mechanic for a major airline. I overhaul 767's. The engines are NOT from a 767. No 767 in existence uses CFM56's. Not enough power to lift a '67."

From: http://www.rense.com/general63/wtcc.htm
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Well that was a big waste of my time.

I cannot find a single site on the web that accuses Popular Mechanics (or anyone else for that matter) of calling the engine a CFM56. Not even on the PM site itself. The only one that comes up is the truther link you reference...

This Jon Carlson character is an idiot. The PM article he referenced isn't even an accurate link. And he doesn't even bother to reference what the engine on a 767 really is (GE CF6-80C2).

This argument is pointless.
 
Java Man said:
So according to you they would NOT have been able to know the difference? So they'd be like any other average Joe on the street that day.
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Many of those hearing explosions were inside the towers. To some it sounded like bombs when the south tower fell. To some it was a WTF. Watch the expression of Chief Pfeifer's face in the Naudet film. He has no idea what is happening. This kind of rules out demolition charges.

Better examples to compare are the statements of Deshore and Ondrovic on the oral histories. One person pretty much in control of her situation and one utterly freaked out and running down the street with her turnout coat on fire from being splashed with gasoline.

To Ondrovic, it looked like she was under attack. Deshore stayed relatively focused and realized that it was cars cooking off from unfought fires.

Yet that Canadian doofus MacQueen took both statements to support a theory of HE.

Derrrrr!
 
Come on Lefty, don't insinuate anything about us Canadians. We are not all doofuses...

TAM:D
 
triforcharity said:
BTW, one beam from WTC falling on them, would exceede it's crush test without breaking a sweat.
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Yes, making them unusable, but not vaporizing them. Since there was no thermite used then normal fires would not have been capable of "vaporizing" the blackbox. A beam would have made one great waffle out of it, but nothing more. The black boxes were not recovered in an unusable state. They were not recovered, period.
 
T.A.M. said:
yes, that 15% is why I would like to see the full report list. They state in the results, that the listed % are for MAJOR causes of morbidity.
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Some blunt force trauma might be taken for barotrauma, but not vice-versa, from what I have read. Moving walls can produce some interesting injuries, and it does not take HE to move a wall. Fuel vapors would actually do it better. HE tends to shatter walls. That's why hard rock miners use dynamite and quarrying operations use ANFO. Slower explosions don't break things into itty bitty pieces.
 
was somebody insinuating that the black boxes were VAPORIZED? Destroyed beyond recognition or identification yes, along with some serious melting, for sure, but I doubt the entire black box was vaporized. WHo claimed this?

TAM:)
 
Java Man said:
Yes, making them unusable, but not vaporizing them. Since there was no thermite used then normal fires would not have been capable of "vaporizing" the blackbox.
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The collapse would have battered them beyond recognition and the fire in the pile would have removed any paint and circuit boards.
 
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