Contradictions in the Bible

[Christian Dude]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions in the Bible

You're going to need thicker skin than that around here.

When you have your argument, pm me. I'm not holding my breath.

I know what you mean fowlsound, and I do have rino skin. I just want to be nice by choice and hope people respond in kind, thats all.

 

[Taffer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions in the Bible

I know what you mean fowlsound, and I do have rino skin. I just want to be nice by choice and hope people respond in kind, thats all.

That's good. More people should think like this.

Originally posted by Christian Dude
Now in the area of evolution vs. creation or ID, I am a little bit too ignorant and not up to date to present a good argument. I am working on rectifying that.

I wouldn't worry, it isn't much of an argument anyway.

Originally posted by Ryokan
You will find that the people on this board works the other way. First we find facts, then we make conclusions.

Most people do.

 

[FrankP]

Genealogies

Which of the two lineages of Jesus given in the Bible is correct?

They both are - one is through Joseph's line, the other through Mary's.

That's a very common attempt at an explanation, but completely wrong as the text shows:

Luke 3:23 When he began [his ministry], Jesus was about thirty years old, being the son, as it was thought, of Joseph son of Heli

Matthew 1:16 And Jacob fathered Joseph the husband of Mary; of her was born Jesus who is called the Christ.

So the simplest way to point out the contradiction is to ask, Who was Joseph's father?

It is possible to argue that this man had a double name or used both as alternative names, in which case that would have to apply to every pair of names from the two genealogies all the way back. The problem then is that in a direct male line of descent, one source gives 27 generations between David and Jesus, while the other gives 42. Finally, Luke has his line stem from David's son Nathan while Matthew goes through Solomon and follows the royal line of Judah until the exile. It is an impossibility to have two different lines of direct male descent leading from David to Jesus.

 

[Genesius]

Why would the Bible bother to list a lineage of Jesus through Joseph? Since Jesus was supposedly miracuously conceived of a virgin, Joseph's lineage has got nothing to do with him.

Other than the need to establish Jesus' legitimate parentage to their contemporaries, due to the difficulty of listing "God Almighty" as the father on Jesus' birth certificate. . .

 

[Ducky]

Why would the Bible bother to list a lineage of Jesus through Joseph? Since Jesus was supposedly miracuously conceived of a virgin, Joseph's lineage has got nothing to do with him.

Other than the need to establish Jesus' legitimate parentage to their contemporaries, due to the difficulty of listing "God Almighty" as the father on Jesus' birth certificate. . .

That's an angle I never thought of before. Nice.

 

[Ossai]

Fizzer

Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
Which of the two lineages of Jesus given in the Bible is correct?

They both are - one is through Joseph's line, the other through Mary's.

They do not match up. Actually write them down side by side.

You’ll notice that both are specified for Joseph. Which is an attempt to link Jesus to David via the father. Now if Jesus was a virgin birth and only through Mary why would Joseph’s lineage even be mentioned? I’ll go ahead and answer the question for you as well. Because of the way inheritance was passed.

You’ll also notice both use quit a bit of the same genealogy. Now if they are for two separate lines the large overlap must be explained especially in regards to the missing generations in each.

The Jehoakim line was kicked out entirely, yet it is listed as part of Jesus’ lineage.

Jeremiah 22: 28-30
"Is this man Coniah a despised, broken idol--
A vessel in which is no pleasure?
Why are they cast out, he and his descendants,
And cast into a land which they do not know?
O earth, earth, earth,
Hear the word of the LORD!
Thus says the LORD:
"Write this man down as childless,
A man who shall not prosper in his days;
For none of his descendants shall prosper,
Sitting on the throne of David,
And ruling anymore in Judah."'

And

Jeremiah 36: 27-32
Now after the king had burned the scroll with the words which Baruch had written at the instruction of Jeremiah, the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying:
"Take yet another scroll, and write on it all the former words that were in the first scroll which Jehoiakim the king of Judah has burned.
And you shall say to Jehoiakim king of Judah, "Thus says the LORD: "You have burned this scroll, saying, "Why have you written in it that the king of Babylon will certainly come and destroy this land, and cause man and beast to cease from here?"'
Therefore thus says the LORD concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah: "He shall have no one to sit on the throne of David, and his dead body shall be cast out to the heat of the day and the frost of the night.
I will punish him, his family, and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring on them, on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and on the men of Judah all the doom that I have pronounced against them; but they did not heed.""'
Then Jeremiah took another scroll and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah, who wrote on it at the instruction of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire. And besides, there were added to them many similar words.

Bold mine.

Ossai

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

This may help:
(Note Matthew’s use of 1Chr and similarity to Luke)

 [b]Gen.     Luke 3    Matthew 1   1Chr 3    Matthew's Count[/b]
   1       Jesus+     Jesus+      ---         13
   2       Joseph+    Joseph+     ---         12
   3        Heli      Jacob       ---         11
   4      Matthat    Matthan      ---         10
   5        Levi     Eleazar      ---         9
   6       Melchi     Eliud       ---         8
   7       Janna      Achim       ---         7
   8       Joseph     Sadoc       ---         6
   9      Mattathias   Azor       ---         5
   10       Amos     Eliakim    Jeconiah*     4
   11       Naum      Abiud      Jehoiakim    3
   12       Esli     Zorobabel   Josiah*      2
   13      Nagge     Salathiel    Amon*       1
   14      Maath     Jechonias* Manasseh*     14
   15     Mattathias  Josias*   Hezekiah*     13
   16      Semei       Amon*      Ahaz*       12
   17      Joseph    Manasses*   Jotham*      11
   18       Juda     Ezekias*   Azariah       10
   19      Joanna     Achaz*    Amaziah       9
   20      Rhesa     Joatham*    Joash        8
   21     Zorobabel   Ozias*    Ahaziah*      7
   22     Salathiel   Joram*     Joram*       6
   23       Neri     Josaphat*  Jehoshaphat*  5
   24      Melchi      Asa*       Asa*        4
   25       Addi       Abia*      Abia*       3
   26      Cosam      Roboam*   Rehoboam*     2
   27     Elmodam    Solomon*   Solomon*      1
   28        Er       David*     David*       14
   29       Jose      Jesse+                  13
   30     Eliezer      Obed+                  12
   31      Jorim       Booz+                  11
   32     Matthat     Salmon+                 10
   33       Levi     Naasson+                 9
   34      Simeon    Aminadab+                8
   35       Juda       Aram+                  7
   36      Joseph     Esrom+                  6
   37      Jonan      Phares+                 5
   38     Eliakim     Judas+                  4
   39      Melea      Jacob+                  3
   40      Menan      Isaac+                  2
   41     Mattatha   Abraham+   `             1
   42     Nathan
   43     David
   44      Jesse
   45       Obed+
   46       Booz+
   47      Salmon+
   48     Naasson+
   49    Aminadab+
   50       Aram+
   51      Esrom+
   52     Phares+
   53      Juda+
   54      Jacob+
   55      Isaac+
   56     Abraham+
   57      Thara
   58      Nachor
   59     Saruch
   60      Ragau
   61      Phalec
   62      Heber
   63        Sala
   64       Cainan
   65      Arphaxad
   66        Sem
   67        Noe
   68       Lamech
   69      Mathusala
   70       Enoch
   71       Jared
   72      Maleleel
   73       Cainan
   74        Enos
   75        Seth
   76        Adam
   77        God

+ = Matthew and Luke match
* = Matthew and 1Chronicles match


To me it seems Matthew was mainly aiming to get his numerology to work out (though it seems there’s a problem there too).

Edited for missing * on Jechonias, but that also makes me note Matthew skips 1Chr's Jehoiakim, which is odd to me as it would fix his numbers. Wouldn’t it?

Edited again 'cause Atlas reminded me there's more skipping in Matt.

 

[Atlas]

To me it seems Matthew was mainly aiming to get his numerology to work out (though it seems there’s a problem there too).

If this gets into a shouting match over who is more authoritive, Matthew or Luke, I think we gotta go with Luke. He takes us all the way back to Adam, for gosh sakes. Why would he lie?

Matthew, on the other hand, can we really trust that guy? He sounds like he’s got an agenda (As Scot points out, his numerology). Look at his lineage, especially between Joram and Jotham.

Matthew 1
6 …David became the father of Solomon, …
7 Solomon became the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asaph.
8 Asaph became the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, Joram the father of Uzziah.
9 Uzziah became the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah.

Doesn’t that seem made up to you? I thought so. But why? Because he could only count to 14 and had to shoehorn events to meet his uinderstanding of spititual math. Thus he says…

Matthew 1:17 Thus the total number of generations from Abraham to David is fourteen generations; from David to the Babylonian exile, fourteen generations; from the Babylonian exile to the Messiah, fourteen generations

For the actual story let’s go to the Chronicler himself who gives the correct list of begats centuries earlier.

1st Chronicles 3
10 The son of Solomon was Rehoboam, whose son was Abijah, whose son was Asa, whose son was Jehoshaphat,
11 whose son was Joram, whose son was Ahaziah, whose son was Joash,
12 whose son was Amaziah, whose son was Azariah, whose son was Jotham,
13 whose son was Ahaz, whose son was Hezekiah,

I’m sure we’d all like to forget Ahaziah, Joash, and Amaziah as much as Matthew would, but can we? Aren’t they etched into our collective memory just as deeply as most other dead people?

All scripture is inspired by God, I think those of us who believe in God and those of us who don’t can agree on that. Why did God change his mind and inspire Matthew to fake a short list when he inspired the Chronicler to produce a long list?

 

[Genesius]

Originally posted by Atlas

All scripture is inspired by God, I think those of us who believe in God and those of us who don’t can agree on that.

I don't agree with that at all! Before you can make a statement like "All scripture is inspired by God" you need to 1) be able to prove such a being exists, and 2) define what you mean by "all scripture". Are the Apocrypha scripture, or just what was approved by the Council of Nicea? How about the Koran? Can you prove what writings are actually "holy" and which are the demented scribblings of people whacked out on the local equivalent of magic mushrooms?

 

[Atlas]

... Matthew skips 1Chr's Jehoiakim, which is odd to me as it would fix his numbers. Wouldn’t it?

Perhaps, but he may also expect us to count Jesus twice because He's coming back.

 

[Atlas]

I don't agree with that at all! Before you can make a statement like "All scripture is inspired by God" you need to 1) be able to prove such a being exists, and 2) define what you mean by "all scripture". Are the Apocrypha scripture, or just what was approved by the Council of Nicea? How about the Koran? Can you prove what writings are actually "holy" and which are the demented scribblings of people whacked out on the local equivalent of magic mushrooms?

I was being cynical. If you don't believe in the desert god, you're really saying that you believe god is the product of imagination. Likewise with scripture - the supernatural part, that is.

 

[Genesius]

Originally posted by Atlas

I was being cynical. If you don't believe in the desert god, you're really saying that you believe god is the product of imagination. Likewise with scripture - the supernatural part, that is.

Massive aplolgies for taking your comment seriously. Just shows that posting while at work is a bad idea - prolonged exposure to a work environment can cause incurable dain bramage!

 

[Ducky]

Originally posted by Atlas




Massive aplolgies for taking your comment seriously. Just shows that posting while at work is a bad idea - prolonged exposure to a work environment can cause incurable dain bramage!

There needs to be scientific study on this topic. I can then use that as my argument for being paid to sit on my ass at home.

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

If this gets into a shouting match over who is more authoritive, Matthew or Luke, I think we gotta go with Luke. He takes us all the way back to Adam, for gosh sakes. Why would he lie?

No, I supposed he'd have no reason to...

Personally though, I like Matthew better. In all, he has better miracles, and I too am a sucker for numbers.

Still, I think this whole debate may be Biblically immoral:

1tim1:4

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit 3:9

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

So, don’t worry about this “contradiction”; move along. (and please don’t point the LDS to the above passages, their genealogical practices have proven useful to geneticists).

Matthew, on the other hand, can we really trust that guy? He sounds like he’s got an agenda (As Scot points out, his numerology). Look at his lineage, especially between Joram and Jotham.

Oops, I missed that. I corrected the table.

I’m sure we’d all like to forget Ahaziah, Joash, and Amaziah as much as Matthew would, but can we? Aren’t they etched into our collective memory just as deeply as most other dead people?

Surely, no one will forget the story of Amaziah and the Coat of Itchy Wool, or that time when Joash found a really neat rock.

Anyone know if and where there is another Biblical source for the Adam to Abraham genealogy?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'm wondering how Mary could be held to be "without sin", since she did have a child by a male entity who was not her husband. That would seem to be adultery.

Unless the thought is that God is above his own laws, and can exercise droit de dieu.

I don't see how anyone can respect an authority who proclaims rules and then breaks them at will. How many of the ten commandments has God broken in the Bible? Murders aplenty. Didn't he lie a few times as well? And he seems to covet things and people sometimes. At least he never breaks the first commandment, as he is obviously extremely stuck on himself, and is his own best worshipper. Much like Trump.

 

[Atlas]

Unless the thought is that God is above his own laws, and can exercise droit de dieu.

Sacre Bleu! Next we'll find out God is French! Wait... where did that Divine Right of Kings thing come from?

 

[ceo_esq]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions in the Bible

Oh, okay, that's a lie. Here's a look at Jesus' last words:

Matthew says: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?) Onlookers believed he was calling on Elijah. Then he cried out once more (uh, maybe. This bit is kind of ambiguous) and died. And then the temple curtain was torn in two, the earth shook and rocks split, and the saints came marching in out of their tombs. (Matthew 27:45-53)

Mark says: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" Same comments from onlookers about Elijah. Then he cried out once more and died. The temple curtain was torn in two, but Mark doesn't mention any other weird stuff. (Mark 15:33-38)


Luke says: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." The temple curtain was torn in two some time before, when the sun stopped shining. (Luke 23:44-46)

John says: "It is finished." No darkness, no curtain tearing. (John 19:28-30)

In the absence of conflicting explicit statements to the effect that certain specific words were the very last to pass Jesus' lips, however, it is very difficult to demonstrate a formal contradiction. I daresay that with a little effort, any one of us here could come up with a coherent narrative reconstruction based on a synthesis of all four Gospel accounts of Jesus' final moments.

 

[shemp]

Maybe Joseph had two gay dads?

 

[Palimpsest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions in the Bible

In the absence of conflicting explicit statements to the effect that certain specific words were the very last to pass Jesus' lips, however, it is very difficult to demonstrate a formal contradiction. I daresay that with a little effort, any one of us here could come up with a coherent narrative reconstruction based on a synthesis of all four Gospel accounts of Jesus' final moments.

Luke and John both explicitly say that their respective lines were Jesus' last words. Matthew and Mark mention a loud cry after the call to God/Elijah/whoever, so if you were really keen to do so, you could claim that Jesus said some more stuff between the "lama sabachthani" and his death. Which raises a lot more questions, IMO.

But, do go on. Let's see your coherent narrative reconstruction.

 

[Scot C. Trypal]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Contradictions in the Bible

In the absence of conflicting explicit statements to the effect that certain specific words were the very last to pass Jesus' lips, however, it is very difficult to demonstrate a formal contradiction. I daresay that with a little effort, any one of us here could come up with a coherent narrative reconstruction based on a synthesis of all four Gospel accounts of Jesus' final moments.

As I expressed a long while ago, I’d be interested in seeing such a thing, starting from the crucifixion to the sightings of the resurrected Jesus. I believe, at the time, Rebecca (was it?) had the best narrative. It was necessarily convoluted and impossible by any practical measure, but the best, in the sense that it agreed most, though not fully, with all the Gospels. I’d love to see a better one.

I think such an exercise, if successful, would only show though that contradictions in anyone’s religion don’t necessarily matter.

One guy says the sky was red, and the other says it was green, and so the sky was red and green. Hardly anyone would write myth, fables, or even, for a great part, history in a way to be airtight, in the sense that a contradicting view could be shown to be contradicting in a formal logic sense.

Even where you find a place where a believer in the inerrancy of their religious text admits a contradiction, they can simply jettison reason and say both contradicting facts are “somehow” true, through mystery. Then what? I’ve gone over this many times with a friend of mine who’s a Baptist minister. But now, we mainly just talk about our kids, and it’s a much more healthy relationship .