Continued: (Ed) Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

Stout said:
The voice(s) of reason were quickly shut down, not just by ceepolk but by the entire mod team which created a forum culture that was the antithesis of skeptical thinking/critical thought. The reasonable Aplussers didn't stand a chance in that environment.
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In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
 
Amadanb said:
Oh hey, I figured you guys would be eating popcorn.

I think this conversation would be going very differently if ceepolk were still around.

Do note, since a lot of you have been pretty categorical in your contempt for all A-plussers, that I am not the only one trying to be reasonable.
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The conversation would not be going differently - it would have been shut down. But, really, other than the shutting down, aren't we seeing the same thing. Exi5tentialist is allowed to start numerous threads on the same subject, a subject zep's entirely ignorant of other than "well, I done got me some prejudice directed at me". If A+ was true to its own directives, Exi5 would've been shut down a week ago. "Bigotry is bad. We get it. Shut up because any form of theism is counter to our purpose. If you want to discuss brown-skinned oppression, where do we sign up. If you want us all to line up behind religious folks, no. Bah Bye."

I'd love to see how they'd respond to someone posting the same sort of concept about the mis-treated and maligned Sephardic Jews. Or Coptic Christians. Exi5 has a strange bug up the butt and should be given the standard JREFF bum's rush "Look this ain't the forum for that kind of mission statement. Go start your own if that's your primary goal."

Amadanb said:
In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
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I think it's easy to point at Ceepolk, but there are the layabouts who are supposed to be GAs who did nothing and gave Cee that free rein. And I've seen SubMor stifle arguments with similar arguments to Cee's. Plus, Ischemgeek is doing a pretty good Ceepolk imitation half the time, although I have to say that's improved a tad.
 
It was more than just a few people though, it was the majority of posters that determined the culture of the forum and the mods went along with it. We can go back a year and bring up the backpackergirl thread for ambiance because it was one of the few extremist threads from that era that survived the delete button. That was A+ culture being created and it's a culture that remains to this day. There's just less of it as most of the posters who created that culture have wandered off.

I'll agree that ceepolk is responsible for the low population over there.

As a more recent for instance, take rickymonstoon's thread, Disappointed ( Shermer ) and his suspension for daring to suggest Shermer might be innocent. That wasn't ceepolk who gave the suspension to someone who stated that "we' don't have enough information on this topic to come to any meaningful conclusions as to Shermer's guilt or innocence. Ricky was censored simply for going against the prevailing culture.

Now, with this guy exi5, that culture is being turned upside down. Submor is trying to uphold it, I think, it's kind of hard to figure out what he's saying. It looks like he's trying to play the racism card but realizes that would be stupid so is opting to go the privilege route in order to avoid saying it directly.

Ummm yea, the British Born Muslims study. That's an interesting one. Done by four people, independent of any official polling outfit and, relevant to the A+ thread, shows the opposite of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality as a Guardian article published months earlier in the same year, 2009. In fact, the independent study shows Muslims as being so progressive it undermines it's own credibility.

For instance, the question "In your opinion, which country is the biggest threat to world security ?" nobody said Israel ? Come on.

or

Only 1% of respondents thought The Guardian was "deliberately biased against Muslims" when that same paper had just called the all homophobes months earlier.

or

"Do you believe 9/11 was a conspiracy against Islam / Muslims ?" 53% said yes. Does this mean that 53% of British born Muslims are truthers ?

I highly suspect that poll was never done and that document was created by one person and blogged to be cited as "evidence" that Muslims are awesome.

Now, this Exi5 guy is trying to tone police as well as dismiss the lived experiences of an ex-Muslim woman who called Islam misogynist therefore going against a culture that he helped create.

Weird.
 
I don't disagree about Exi5stentialist, obviously. I have not been so aggravated by anyone on the A+ boards since Setar was the reigning drama queen. The only reason he's getting away with his nonsense is that he's cynically and manipulatively tied his little crusade into his identity as a gay man, so he can launch accusations of homophobia against people who argue with him.

As for the mods, I get the impression most of them are inactive. I am generally okay with SubMor - he falls for some logical fallacies, but he chides more than he bans. I am wary in dealing with Ischemgeek, but haven't had any personal problems with her modding. For me the biggest problem with the mods is that they bend over backwards to avoid being "-ist" to anyone, which the most manipulative and narcissistic members use shamelessly to try to make the forum a "safe space" for them.
 
Stout said:
Ummm yea, the British Born Muslims study. That's an interesting one. Done by four people, independent of any official polling outfit and, relevant to the A+ thread, shows the opposite of Muslim attitudes to homosexuality as a Guardian article published months earlier in the same year, 2009. In fact, the independent study shows Muslims as being so progressive it undermines it's own credibility.
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Yeah, I posted some contradictory polls - funny, Exi5 never responded to that.

The biggest red flags for me about that poll were the 99% answers. Uh, I don't think you could get 99% of any statistically significant population to agree that killing and eating your grandmother is immoral. If I see 99% agreement on any remotely controversial question on a poll, I am 99% certain that poll can't be trusted.
 
Amadanb said:
In my opinion, most of the mod team is actually fairly reasonable, even if I don't agree with them about everything, though they are quick to be swayed/guilted by anyone who cries the right buzzwords. I actually associate the majority of the problems the A+ forum had/has with ceepolk and a few others, ceepolk being the biggest problem because she was a mod.
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Got to disagree. It was the larger culture, as supported tacitly or explicitly by the majority of mods and regular posters. A lone poster, mod or not, can only do damage when their behavior is accepted. maiforpeace, for example, was a mod but lost favor. Also there is the secret private forum which may have contributed to clichishness and favoring certain posters (Laughing Coyote??) over others.


Humes fork said:
Just the title of this Pharyngula blogpost shows that he doesn't understand what atheism is: Maybe this will finally drive the libertarians out of atheism
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Nor libertarianism for that matter.
 
so now PZ says you cant be a libertarian and an atheist?

No wonder he wants atheism to be some sort of movement or exclusionary group - he thinks he's a leader!
 
devnull said:
so now PZ says you cant be a libertarian and an atheist?

No wonder he wants atheism to be some sort of movement or exclusionary group - he thinks he's a leader!
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PZ Myers: Het there libertarian atheist! There is not profit in atheism!

Libertarian atheist: Oh really? Hmm, maybe there is something to the first-cause argument then...

:rolleyes:

And how do you "drive someone out" of atheism in the first place?
 
Humes fork said:
And how do you "drive someone out" of atheism in the first place?
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You start by challenging the notion that atheism actually means what it means (e.g. PZ's "I really hate those 'dictionary atheists'!"). Perhaps you define it something more like "organized atheism" / "atheist activism" / "the atheist movement". Then you try to set the parameters of acceptable social and political belief within such organizations and attempt to get people within them deemed to be opposition fired, blacklisted, shunned or whatever. Justin Vacula, Abbie Smith, DJ Groethe, Thunderfoot, Dawkins, etc.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of atheists have nothing to do with the conference world or organized activism and probably couldn't care less about atheist "leadership".
 
cornsail said:
You start by challenging the notion that atheism actually means what it means (e.g. PZ's "I really hate those 'dictionary atheists'!"). Perhaps you define it something more like "organized atheism" / "atheist activism" / "the atheist movement". Then you try to set the parameters of acceptable social and political belief within such organizations and attempt to get people within them deemed to be opposition fired, blacklisted, shunned or whatever. Justin Vacula, Abbie Smith, DJ Groethe, Thunderfoot, Dawkins, etc.

The funny thing is that the vast majority of atheists have nothing to do with the conference world or organized activism and probably couldn't care less about atheist "leadership".
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He clearly wants atheism to be a left-wing political movement, rather than a philosophical position on one issue. But it will never work. He should save himself the trouble and actually join existing political movements championing his political views rather than trying to hijack atheism for that purpose.
 
Humes fork said:
He clearly wants atheism to be a left-wing political movement, rather than a philosophical position on one issue. But it will never work. He should save himself the trouble and actually join existing political movements championing his political views rather than trying to hijack atheism for that purpose.
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I think he was reinventing Kurtz' Secular Humanism; not sure why he didn't just join CSH.
 
blutoski said:
I think he was reinventing Kurtz' Secular Humanism; not sure why he didn't just join CSH.
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Because he would not automatically become the leader?

Kurtz also took a milder approach to religion that Myers or the "new atheists" take.
 
Humes fork said:
Because he would not automatically become the leader?
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Possibly. Or he may be hostile to the entire concept of formal structured organizations per se. I just don't know.




Humes fork said:
Kurtz also took a milder approach to religion that Myers or the "new atheists" take.
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I'm not sure I can agree to that last bit... Kurtz changed his position over time (as part of a power play within CSH), but he was very, very hostile to religion earlier in his career.

He and Maddie O'Hair seemed to be trying to outdo each other.

That was one of the reasons many skeptical organizations (including BCSkeptics) started distancing themselves from CSH/CFI - he was heavily fixated on a religion hate-on at the expense of other paranormal topics and it was getting embarassing.

But as you point out, he reversed course dramatically once he lost control of CSH... but that's maybe my point... CSH/CFI/CSI had become pretty hostile to religion when PZ was getting involved in skepticism, so it still seems like a good fit that he nevertheless ignored.
 
NECSS VI just announced Lawrence Krauss as the keynote speaker in April.

If you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sounds of A-Plusser heads exploding.
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
NECSS VI just announced Lawrence Krauss as the keynote speaker in April.

If you listen very carefully, you'll hear the sounds of A-Plusser heads exploding.
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Speaking of things that are likely to make A-Plusser heads explode:

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