Continuation - Ukraine erupts in riots and general strikes

[magellan]

A patrol of Russian paratroopers was captured inside Ukraine. Commercial satellite photos show where Russian rocket artillery batteries fired from within Russia on Ukrainian positions. Those two simple facts alone are sufficient to show that Russia has been fighting a limited, undeclared war against Ukraine.

Yes, we all know that the new new hitler has weapons of mass destruction hidden north, south, east and west of donetsk.

Fortunately we have pictures of russian BUK systems stationed in Ukraine, and don't have to rely on kiev and US say-so.

... that's totally in ukraine, not at a moscow fair...

 

[McHrozni]

A patrol of Russian paratroopers was captured inside Ukraine. Commercial satellite photos show where Russian rocket artillery batteries fired from within Russia on Ukrainian positions. Those two simple facts alone are sufficient to show that Russia has been fighting a limited, undeclared war against Ukraine.

I suspect Magellan knows all that.

My theory as to why he comments the way he does is described here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

McHrozni

 

[magellan]

I suspect Magellan knows all that.

My theory as to why he comments the way he does is described here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

McHrozni

Ten dudes, 9 months ago, who instantly surrender is a formidable invasion force which requires the use of heavy artillery! (Seriously: this is the best evidence for a 10.000 man strong invasion? )

Btw: Kerry offered to lift the sanctions if the ceasefire holds. No mention of crimea. Does that hurt, McHrozni?

 

[McHrozni]

Ten dudes, 9 months ago, who instantly surrender is a formidable invasion force which requires the use of heavy artillery! (Seriously: this is the best evidence for a 10.000 man strong invasion? )

No, it's just the only evidence you're prepared to adress. Incidentally, what's your explanation for their presence?

Btw: Kerry offered to lift the sanctions if the ceasefire holds. No mention of crimea. Does that hurt, McHrozni?

Not particularly, no. It may hurt Putler though. His current mythology is that the sanctions are part of western aggression against Russia, which feeds directly into the siege mentality he created. If they are lifted he will need a new round of fairy tales to explain how Russia is being threatned. Each new round makes him less credible, and he looses geniune support, which may eventually colluminate in his long overdue demise.
If that doesn't happen, the unrest will require him to unleash a new wave of repression, shedding Russia of even more badly needed brains to the benefit of his opponents, digging an even deeper hole for his wannabe empire.

Russia is a nuisance for the civilized world, nothing more. The greater nuisance it becomes, the deeper it'll fall when it does fall. That could happen in the next year or so (if the oil prices collapse), or within a decade at latest, when the various ongoing crises (demographic, social, brain and capital flight, low levels of investment, etc) get unbearable.

McHrozni

 

[Childlike Empress]

Interesting interview with DPR head of state Zakharchenko on May 11, the first anniversary of the Donetsk referendum, looking back at the developments since (and before) then.

 

[magellan]

No, it's just the only evidence you're prepared to adress. Incidentally, what's your explanation for their presence?

This is the only piece of evidence that doesn't rely on trusting the US or Kiew. I stopped trusting the US in 2003 and Kiew in 2014.

My explanation? They wandered into ukrainian controlled territory. Obviously by mistake, because I doubt the plan was getting captured.

Let's take a look at your explanation: They went for a walk away from the other 9990 invading russians, to have some alone time. Maybe they wanted to have sex, and I heard the russian army is don't ask don't tell.

Not particularly, no. It may hurt Putler though. His current mythology is that the sanctions are part of western aggression against Russia, which feeds directly into the siege mentality he created. If they are lifted he will need a new round of fairy tales to explain how Russia is being threatned.

I read this before.
This is good spin, obviously done by a pro. Let's not mention crimea.
I have no problem with this narrative if this is a way for the west to get out of the sanctions while saving face. (Seriously guys, Raiffeisen is hurting)

But you are more amusing when you are fantasizing about bloodbaths, so please keep the quoting to a minimum and entertain us with your own thoughts.

 

[magellan]

Interesting interview with DPR head of state Zakharchenko on May 11, the first anniversary of the Donetsk referendum, looking back at the developments since (and before) then.

oh.
This *is* interesting.
Thanks for posting.

 

[caveman1917]

Seriously: this is the best evidence for a 10.000 man strong invasion?

Don't forget the youtube video of those tanks.

 

[caveman1917]

Interesting paper (pdf) by Per A. Rudling on Ukrainian nationalism written in november 2011, shortly after Yanukovich got elected

During the past decade, particularly under the presidency of the third Ukrai-
nian president Viktor Yushchenko (2005–2010) there have been repeated attempts
to turn the leading figures of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN)
and its armed wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) into national heroes. As
these fascist organizations collaborated with the Nazi Germany, carried out ethnic
cleansing and mass murder on a massive scale, they are problematic symbols for
an aspiring democracy with the stated ambition to join the European Union. Under
Yushchenko, several institutes of memory management and myth making were
organized, a key function of which was to deny or downplay OUN-UPA atrocities.
Unlike many other former Soviet republics, the Ukrainian government did not need
to develop new national myths from scratch, but imported ready concepts developed
in the Ukrainian diaspora. Yushchenko’s legitimizing historians presented the OUN
and UPA as pluralistic and inclusive organizations, which not only rescued Jews
during the Holocaust, but invited them into their ranks to fight shoulder to shoul-
der against Hitler and Stalin. This mythical narrative relied partly on the OUN’s
own post-war forgeries, aimed at cover up the organization’s problematic past. As
employees of the Ukrainian security services, working out of the offices of the old
KGB, the legitimizing historians ironically dismissed scholarly criticism as Soviet
myths. The present study deals with the myth-making around the OUN, the UPA,
and the Holocaust, tracing their diaspora roots and following their migration back
and forth across the Atlantic.

 

[McHrozni]

My explanation? They wandered into ukrainian controlled territory.

Which option? That they walked for an entire day in a straight line from Russian border into Ukraine by mistake, or did they wander around Ukraine for several days and camped there and they didn't figure out they were grossly out out of their patrol range?

They were on foot, and were captured 20 km from the nearest border with Russia, which just happens to be a sliver of land extending into Ukraine.

Let's take a look at your explanation: They went for a walk away from the other 9990 invading russians, to have some alone time. Maybe they wanted to have sex, and I heard the russian army is don't ask don't tell.

Possibly, although there's a different explanation. They were taken to the location by motor transport and ordered to patrol the area, attack Ukrainians, scouting, or some other military operation.

I read this before.
This is good spin, obviously done by a pro. Let's not mention crimea.

Russia occupied and annexed Crimea, contrary to international law and setting a dangerous precedences. When will they hold a referendum on independence of Chechnya, I wonder? They have to make sure ISIS occupies it first, of course.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Two Russian special forces storm troopers were captured in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32776198

I do wonder if Russia will demand their extradition to serve time for fighting abroad? It's a major breach of Russian criminal code, and they could face a six year sentence, in addition to any time for being AWOL from the army.

http://uatoday.tv/crime/russia-char...mercenary-for-ukrainian-battalion-372902.html

McHrozni

 

[timhau]

They were on leave and acted on their own. And they weren't fighting. They're also not Russian. They're definitely not soldiers. And the footage is faked, and they were not in Ukrainian territory.

So there. It proves nothing.

 

[jimbob]

This is the only piece of evidence that doesn't rely on trusting the US or Kiew. I stopped trusting the US in 2003 and Kiew in 2014.

My explanation? They wandered into ukrainian controlled territory. Obviously by mistake, because I doubt the plan was getting captured.

Let's take a look at your explanation: They went for a walk away from the other 9990 invading russians, to have some alone time. Maybe they wanted to have sex, and I heard the russian army is don't ask don't tell.

There are plenty of other sources of evidence as well. However those, the captured Russian drone or the commercial satellite pictures of the rocket battery launch sites are each sufficient to give the lie to the Russian claims.

Putin admitted that the Little Green Men in Crimea were Russian forces, six weeks after rubbishing that idea.

Some more evidence that doesn't rely on NATO or the Ukrainian government:

<snip>.



The Ukrainian side has been lying about how well the war was/is going - that's to be expected. Russia, however has been lying about not actually attacking Ukraine.

The lies are a completely different type.

There are also plenty of reports of the Russian side using drones, and also several examples of downed Russian drones, which again shows Russian material.

Any one of the following would be sufficient to sufficiently undermine the Russian denials, and this is not a comprehensive list, just what I can recall off the top of my head:

1) Telegraph and Guardian correspondents watching Russian motorised units crossing the border

2) Foot patrol of Russian paratroopers captured at least 4-hours walk inside the border

3) Scorch marks corresponding to rocket launch sites and tyre tracks corresponding to launch vehicles visible on freely available commercial satellite images at the right place to account for attacks on Ukrainian troops in August when the tide suddenly turned against the separatists.

4) Reports of Russian drones, and photos of downed drones

5) Photos of the Russian side using non-Ukrainian MBTs (particular variants of T72's)

6) The interview with Igor Strelkov, where he admitted that he was an FSB colonel and under instruction from Russia

7) Stories of the Russian war widows who say that their husband was killed in Ukraine.

Together these confirm what independent press have been saying, that Russia is sponsoring and stirring up the separatist side

<snip>
The social media postings of Russian troops geolocated to within Ukraine are stronger evidence of Russian involvement.

The Russian tactical reconnaissance drone is evidence of Russian violations of Ukrainian airspace - and is consistent with witness reports of drones preceding artillery strikes

The commercial satellite images showing tracks leading to launch marks within Russia and pointing to a crater field in Ukraine is pretty convincing evidence of direct Russian military involvement

The captured foot patrol of Russian paratroopers captured at least 4-hours walk inside the border is also sufficient evidence on its own to confirm Russian violations of Ukrainian soverign territory (as were the "Little Green Men" in the Crimea)


The interview with Igor Strelkov, where he admitted that he was an FSB colonel and under instruction from Russia is pretty strong evidence of Russian involvement.

Stories of the Russian war widows who say that their husband was killed in Ukraine are also consistent with this.

There is also this BBC article:
How many Russians are fighting in Ukraine?

 

[dudalb]

Putin's Useful Idiots are still active, I see.
But still amazed that people who are pretty far to the left would support somebody like Putin, who if anything is more and more resembling the classic Right Wing Dictator.

 

[LSSBB]

Putin's Useful Idiots are still active, I see.
But still amazed that people who are pretty far to the left would support somebody like Putin, who if anything is more and more resembling the classic Right Wing Dictator.

It's simple, really. If you have an unshakeable belief that the U.S. is evil no matter what, you must (by the law of simplistic dualistic thinking) believe anyone opposing them is an untouchable saint, incapable of lying about anything.

Of course, if you have a more nuanced view that it's not all about what side you are on, then you don't fall into such a trap. But what fun is it to be skeptical about all sides? That won't allow you to get all worked up, sanctimonious and absolute. How boring, how bourgeois.

 

[McHrozni]

Two more Spetznatz captives in Ukraine.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/159296

One of them said he had received military education in the Russian Federation. Both individuals claimed that they were members of a unit of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They claimed that they were on a reconnaissance mission. They were armed but had no orders to attack. Both of them said that they came under fire, got injured and were captured on 16 May 2015 at the contact line near Shchastya. One of them said he had received orders from his military unit to go to Ukraine; he was to “rotate” after three months. Both of them said they had been to Ukraine “on missions” before. One of them stressed repeatedly that there were no Russian troops involved in fighting in Ukraine. Both said they were provided with a Ukrainian lawyer who visited them today.

Two Russian soldiers captured on mission in Ukraine admit they have been to Ukraine before and that they rotate in quarterly intervals. Let's see how Putler fanboys spin this one

McHrozni

 

[caveman1917]

It's simple, really.

Yes it is.

If you have an unshakeable belief that the U.S. is evil no matter what, you must (by the law of simplistic dualistic thinking) believe anyone opposing them is an untouchable saint, incapable of lying about anything.

Of course, if you have a more nuanced view that it's not all about what side you are on, then you don't fall into such a trap. But what fun is it to be skeptical about all sides? That won't allow you to get all worked up, sanctimonious and absolute. How boring, how bourgeois.

Utter and complete nonsense, this "left-wing support for Putin" is a fantasy conjured up by useful idiots incapable of thinking in terms different from "if you're not with us then you're with the evil guy" - as this thread amply demonstrates. Rather than further propagating this ridiculous fantasy, how about linking to some actual left-wing publications that would show what you claim? Hint: you won't find what you think you'll find.

Not only is this utter and complete nonsense, it is ironic nonsense as well. The problem you are describing about "taking sides" is exactly what the people propagating these fantasies do when they are incapable of understanding that not taking their side does not necessarily entail taking the other side. You really should try actually reading relevant far left publications on the subject rather than going by what the overactive imagination of some in this thread want them to say.

 

[McHrozni]

Utter and complete nonsense, this "left-wing support for Putin" is a fantasy conjured up by useful idiots incapable of thinking in terms different from "if you're not with us then you're with the evil guy"

Actually it's a fact.

http://www.worldcrunch.com/opinion-...remism-nationalism-ukraine-conflict/c7s15880/

Putler has significant support from both the extreme leftards and the neo-Nazis.

It puts the saying "Tell me who your friends are and I can tell you who you are" in perspective, doesn't it.

You forgot to spin Putler's brownshirts that were captured in Ukraine. Please try to explain it away, you're always so funny when you do

McHrozni

 

[Border Reiver]

Two more Spetznatz captives in Ukraine.

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/159296

One of them said he had received military education in the Russian Federation. Both individuals claimed that they were members of a unit of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They claimed that they were on a reconnaissance mission. They were armed but had no orders to attack. Both of them said that they came under fire, got injured and were captured on 16 May 2015 at the contact line near Shchastya. One of them said he had received orders from his military unit to go to Ukraine; he was to “rotate” after three months. Both of them said they had been to Ukraine “on missions” before. One of them stressed repeatedly that there were no Russian troops involved in fighting in Ukraine. Both said they were provided with a Ukrainian lawyer who visited them today.

Two Russian soldiers captured on mission in Ukraine admit they have been to Ukraine before and that they rotate in quarterly intervals. Let's see how Putler fanboys spin this one

McHrozni

Well, there are a few options here:

a. These people are who they claim they are (Russian soldiers carrying out operations in Ukraine under the orders of their government in contravention of the LOAC);
b. Partially correct - they are Russian nationals, but are no longer active members of the Russian army and are making stuff up to explain why they had weapons (ie. Russian criminals); and
c. Nothing is accurate - the Ukrainian government grabbed two ethnic Russians, planted evidence on them and forced them to "confess" to being Russian soldiers on a secret mission to destabilize Ukraine.

The Ukraine's just cancelled all military agreements with Russia, ibarring cutting off economic ties with Russia there really isn't a whole lot of options.

 

[McHrozni]

Well, there are a few options here:

a. These people are who they claim they are (Russian soldiers carrying out operations in Ukraine under the orders of their government in contravention of the LOAC);
b. Partially correct - they are Russian nationals, but are no longer active members of the Russian army and are making stuff up to explain why they had weapons (ie. Russian criminals); and
c. Nothing is accurate - the Ukrainian government grabbed two ethnic Russians, planted evidence on them and forced them to "confess" to being Russian soldiers on a secret mission to destabilize Ukraine.

The Ukraine's just cancelled all military agreements with Russia, ibarring cutting off economic ties with Russia there really isn't a whole lot of options.

Options b. and c. have a little bit of an issue with one of them insisting there are no Russian military units doing the fighting in Ukraine. Surely Ukraine would have them say that as well? If they were Russian criminals, they would surely tell their captors what they wanted to hear, no?

McHrozni