Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

[Reality Check]

Sol88: Abysmal ignorance - the receding cliffs on Tempel 1 are not a 67P landslide

Where do you think the icy debris at the foot of cliffs has come from gone? from the receding icy cliffs?

10 April 2017 Sol88: Abysmal ignorance - the receding cliffs on Tempel 1 are not the landslide on 67P !
The receding cliffs on Tempel 1 are cliffs of ice sublimating.
The pristine interior of comet 67P revealed by the combined aswan outburst and cliff collapse by Pajola, M. et al (2017) is a cliff collapsing.

10 April 2017 Sol88: The inanity that he will be able to see ices actually sublimating in Tempel 1 images!

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88:A lie about a problem and cites two basically unconnected papers

but your real problem JD116 is this, Cosmochemical implications of CONSERT permittivity characterization of 67P/CG

10 April 2017 Sol88: A lie about a problem and cites two basically unconnected papers.
The only connection is they both look at the structure of 67P/CG.

• Cosmochemical implications of CONSERT permittivity characterization of 67P/CG
• On the nucleus structure and activity of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Most of the jets in the second paper came from Hapi - a "smooth" plain. But as Sol88 knows (which makes his statement into a lie):

• Other jets were traced to the faces of fractured cliffs, etc.
• There are images of jets being emitted from pits.

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: Comets are made of ices and so bright material = exposed ice

LINK

It's bright so it MUST be ice!!

10 April 2017 Sol88: Comets are observed to be made of ices and thus exposed bright material has to be fresh ice.

Comets are very dark because ices react with sunlight and the solar wind to form dark material. Any bright surfaces have to be freshly exposed ice .

 

[Reality Check]

127 items of ignorance, delusion and lies dating from 29 August 2016 to 27 February 2017 (maybe hundreds more in the last 7 years!)

1. 31 March 2017 Sol88: The delusion that Titan is a comet !
2. 31 March 2017 Sol88: A lie about "mainstream are stumped yet again" when the mainstream explains the dunes on 67P (winds from sublimated gases).
3. 3 April 2017 Sol88: Unthinking belief in Thunderbolts cult delusions, e.g. that comets are rocks, is no laughing matter when it leads to lies and delusions.
4. 3 April 2017 Sol88: Lying about the Thunderbolts delusions about comets which includes little or no dust on the surface of comets when active (out by jonesdave116).
5. 3 April 2017 Sol88: Repeats his delusion that Titan is a comet revealing deep ignorance about what he cites (what a surprise).
6. 3 April 2017 Sol88: The delusion that lying, deluded Thunderbolts YouTube videos are valid science.
7. 7 April 2017 Sol88: The delusion that Ceres and Moon are comets !
8. 7 April 2017 Sol88: Abysmal ignorance about what he cites and quotes - probable patches of sublimating ices on Ceres !
9. 7 April 2017 Sol88: An appropriate for him fingers in ears image from an ignorant Thunderbolts cult follower.
10. 10 April 2017 Sol88: A lie about no viable mechanism for comet jets from the mainstream.
11. 10 April 2017 Sol88: A lie about the mainstream being ignorant enough to believe in his delusions about an electric sun.
12. 10 April 2017 Sol88: A lie about collapsing cliffs exposing bright patches being the only source for comet jets.
13. 10 April 2017 Sol88: Abysmal ignorance - the receding cliffs on Tempel 1 are not the landslide on 67P !
14. ]10 April 2017 Sol88: The inanity that he will be able to see ices actually sublimating in Tempel 1 images!
15. 10 April 2017 Sol88: A lie about a problem and cites two basically unconnected papers.
16. 10 April 2017 Sol88: Comets are observed to be made of ices and thus exposed bright material has to be fresh ice.

 

[jonesdave116]

The abstracts from the EGU 2017 meeting (23 - 28 April, 2017) are now available. There are posters and orals from the Rosetta mission, among much other interesting science.
An index to the sessions is here: http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/sessionprogramme

All jolly interesting stuff. One oral that caught my eye was this one:

Chemical composition of the semi-volatile grains of comet 67P/Churyumov Gerasimenko
Wurz, P. et al
http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EGU2017/EGU2017-5587.pdf

Essentially, the ROSINA instrument is for detecting neutral and ion species in the coma. However, occasionally a dust grain finds its way into the analyser, where;

...the volatile part evaporates since these ion sources are hot. We will report on the first measurements of the volatile inventory of such dust grains..................The major groups of chemical species are hydrocarbons, oxygenated hydrocarbons, nitrogen-bearing molecules, sulphur-bearing molecules, halogenated molecules and others (including water and CO₂). About 70% of these grains are depleted in water compared to the comet coma, thus, can be considered as semi-volatile dust grains, and the other about 30% are water grains.

Not only interesting, but also shows that what was captured by the Stardust mission in its aerogel was not necessarily representative of the unaltered dust grains, probably because the volatile component had not survived the encounter. I'm sure I've seen the claim from EC supporters that this was evidence against ice on a comet. Wrong again, it would seem.

Lots of other interesting abstracts, not just on the Rosetta mission. There are quite a few on the first results from Juno, for instance.

 

[ferd burfle]

Not only interesting, but also shows that what was captured by the Stardust mission in its aerogel was not necessarily representative of the unaltered dust grains, probably because the volatile component had not survived the encounter. I'm sure I've seen the claim from EC supporters that this was evidence against ice on a comet. Wrong again, it would seem.

Nonetheless "Dust = Rocks!! Eleventy!!" coming in 3,2,1...

Thanks for the continued infusions of science, jd. I'll read the cite to see how they distinguished free ions from those that came from particles.

 

[jonesdave116]

Nonetheless "Dust = Rocks!! Eleventy!!" coming in 3,2,1...

Thanks for the continued infusions of science, jd. I'll read the cite to see how they distinguished free ions from those that came from particles.

Good question, and I did wonder this myself. It's probably something obvious, such as the weight of the grains, or the impact speed. However, the abstract doesn't spell it out.
Tusenfem has his name on a few abstracts so, if he's attending, we'll have to make sure he rocks up for this particular presentation, and takes notes!

EDIT: Or maybe temperature. The 'regular' H₂O neutrals are at roughly 30 K when they hit the detector. Perhaps these ones are at a higher temperature, as they are sublimating from much warmer dust within the detector.

 

[Sol88]

Whoops, more fuel for the fire!

Chemical engineers explain oxygen mystery on comets

Scientists have proposed that the molecular oxygen on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko might have thawed from its surface after having been frozen inside the comet since the dawn of the solar system 4.6 billion years ago. But questions persist because some scientists say the oxygen should have reacted with other chemicals over all that time.

A professor of chemical engineering at Caltech, Konstantinos P. Giapis, began looking at the Rosetta data because the chemical reactions happening on the comet's surface were similar to those he has been performing in the lab for the past 20 years. Giapis studies chemical reactions involving high-speed charged atoms, or ions, colliding with semiconductor surfaces as a means to create faster computer chips and larger digital memories for computers and phones.


snip

In a new Nature Communications study, Giapis and his co-author, postdoctoral scholar Yunxi Yao, demonstrate in the lab how the comet could be producing oxygen. Basically, water vapor molecules stream off the comet as the cosmic body is heated by the sun. The water molecules become ionized, or charged, by ultraviolet light from the sun, and then the sun's wind blows the ionized water molecules back toward the comet. When the water molecules hit the comet's surface, which contains oxygen bound in materials such as rust and sand, the molecules pick up another oxygen atom from these surfaces and O2 is formed.

In other words, the new research implies that the molecular oxygen found by Rosetta need not be primordial after all but may be produced in real time on the comet.

"We have shown experimentally that it is possible to form molecular oxygen dynamically on the surface of materials similar to those found on the comet," says Yao.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-05-chemical-oxygen-mystery-comets.html#jCp

Mmmmmm....interesting twist on the "electrochemistry" spin!

For further reading for the lurkers Evidence of Electrical Activity on Comet 67P: Towards an Electrochemical Framework for Cometary Phenomena

Lucky for the mainstream this blokes got no idea

 

[Tolls]

Do you just look for any papers that mention anything vaguely electric-based, down to picking up a paper because it mentions ions?

Because even I, with A-Level Physics and Chemistry, can tell you that this paper does nothing for the electric universe fantasy.

 

[Sol88]

Do you just look for any papers that mention anything vaguely electric-based, down to picking up a paper because it mentions ions?

Because even I, with A-Level Physics and Chemistry, can tell you that this paper does nothing for the electric universe fantasy.

Yeah, you're right you got me!

I mean

and then the sun's wind blows the ionized water molecules back toward the comet.

knee slapp'n hilarity

 

[tusenfem]

The major problem, though, is that those ionized water molecules need to reach the surface, which is not so easy as it would seem. And is the number of H2O+ impacting the surface enough to explain the number of O2 measured? Especially during high activity of the comet, as stated in the paper, the nucleus is more shielded from the solar wind, and thereby almost no ions will hit the surface.

Here is the link to the actual Nature Communications paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15298

Don't have time to read at the moment, listening to the presentations during the Rosetta RPC team meeting #makeRPCgreatagain.

 

[Sol88]

but.....seems the cracks are getting larger in the ranks!

In other words, the new research implies that the molecular oxygen found by Rosetta need not be primordial after all but may be produced in real time on the comet.

and that's that ay?

 

[Sol88]

The major problem, though, is that those ionized water molecules need to reach the surface, which is not so easy as it would seem. And is the number of H2O+ impacting the surface enough to explain the number of O2 measured? Especially during high activity of the comet, as stated in the paper, the nucleus is more shielded from the solar wind, and thereby almost no ions will hit the surface.

Here is the link to the actual Nature Communications paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15298

Don't have time to read at the moment, listening to the presentations during the Rosetta RPC team meeting #makeRPCgreatagain.

Sure it is the solar wind "blows" them onto the surface as in like

and then the sun's wind blows the ionized water molecules back toward the comet. When the water molecules hit the comet's surface,

easy

 

[tusenfem]

Sure it is the solar wind "blows" them onto the surface as in like

easy

No, not easy, as in the sentence that I added.

 

[tusenfem]

Taking a quick look, I notice that it can also be reactions on dust grains, so it need not be the surface of the comet. However, I am a bit skeptical, because they don't really give clear estimates of the production rate, only that the H2O+ flux, could be enough, but then later say that it is too low and other mechanisms are necessary.

From the discussion:

The crux of any proposed O2 production mechanism is whether it can explain the observed O2 abundance in the 67P coma. The O2− production rate by the ER reaction is proportional to the accelerated water ion flux, which has been measured to be 3 × 109–3 × 1011 m−2 s−1 at 2 a.u. with the caveat that it may be underestimated by at least two orders of magnitude13,36. The proportionality constant (O2 yield) cannot be estimated at this time. Regardless, the reported flux is too low to make ‘accelerated’ water ions entirely responsible for the reported O2 abundance. However, it is noteworthy that there are other water-derived ions present in the coma, which can participate in similar ER reactions on the nucleus surface. For example, the extended coma also contains abundant H3O+, OH+ and O+ (ref. 36), all of which can be picked up by the solar wind and accelerated to energies sufficient to drive ER reactions (Supplementary Figs 8 and 9).

It is an interesting proposal, though, but has nothing to do with any electric comet whatsoever.

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: Lies about Thunderbolts delusions explaining O2 observed on 67P

Whoops, more fuel for the fire!

10 May 2017 Sol88: Lies about Thunderbolts delusions explaining the O₂ observed on 67P.
The deluded Franklin Anariba gets it wrong !
Chemical engineers explain oxygen mystery on comets is H₂O from sublimating water ice being charged by sunlight, driven back to the surface, picking up an extra O and then forming O₂.
ETA: or even worse for the electric comet delusion - the reactions couple be on dust grains in the coma.

More fuel for your mindless belief in the Thunderbolts , ignorance, delusions and lies, Sol88, leading to posts full of ignorance, delusion and lies.
143 items of ignorance, delusion and lies dating from 29 August 2016 to 10 April 2017 (maybe hundreds more in the last 7 years!)

The real world of science: The electric comet delusion debunked back in 2013 !

More than a year and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

The ignorant, deluded and lying Thunderbolts world:
The parroting of the Thunderbolt cult ignorance, delusions and lies in this thread alone (continuation of a thread that is now 7 years of delusions from Sol88 and Haig!).
10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: A lie about his comet delusions being supported by a real mechanism

I mean

10 May 2017 Sol88: A lie about his comet delusions being supported by a real mechanism for O₂ production on 67P (even as a joke).
Add the idiocy of dissing a paper that he wants to support his delusions!

 

[Reality Check]

Sol88: A delusion about cracks in the ranks

but.....seems the cracks are getting larger in the ranks!

10 May 2017 Sol88: A delusion about cracks in the ranks.

If he had understood the deluded Franklin Anariba web page on Thunderbolts then he would have seen a list of 8 scientific mechanisms for producing O₂ from “Abundant molecular oxygen in the coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko” by Bieler et al.
The deluded part includes Anariba's fantasies about them not being feasible. The main evidence of Anariba being deluded is that he writes for Thunderbolts with their obvious ignorance, delusions and lies and presents at their conferences filled with deluded cranks.

 

[ferd burfle]

Please, Sol, write to Dr. Giapis and ask him if his work supports the Electric Comet "theory". Please post his response here in its entirety.

ETA: Be sure to ask him if his work here can be described as electrochemistry.

 

[Dancing David]

Please, Sol, write to Dr. Giapis and ask him if his work supports the Electric Comet "theory". Please post his response here in its entirety.

ETA: Be sure to ask him if his work here can be described as electrochemistry.

That would be actual effort at finding out what researchers actually think