Continuation Part Seven: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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halides1 said:
Interesting. The price that was mentioned in the testimony (10-15 euros) is far less than I was led to believe when the subject was discussed here over three years ago (Danceme and I discussed what a reasonable price for a camisole was IIRC). The testimony talks about a shirt. Could that be a camisole?
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Nice catch. The price seems not as exorbitant as was portrayed then, IIRC.
 
acbytesla said:
Such a joke. At first the guilters say that everyone is forgetting Meredith and then when Amanda has a picture of Meredith on her website and a link to fundraising for the Kercher's she is taken to task for it. It matters not a whit what Amanda actually does, because someone, somewhere will spin it as either manipulation or a sign of guilt or disrespect.

This is frankly part of the insidiousness of her persecution and prosecution. Amanda is naive and stupid. Amanda is clever and diabolical. Every single action of Amanda's is turned on its head.

Briars complains about comparisons to Meredith, yet many if not most of the comparisons have been made at TJMK, PMF.NUT OR PMF.ORG.

How many times have I read from Guilters that Amanda was a party girl and flunking out?? And how Meredith was a "good girl" and was a scholar.
Is that a comparison? Just that these images are placed side by side? hmmmmmm

The simple fact is that Briars and her gang are trying to tie the hands of Amanda's defenders forcing us to not show that Amanda was in fact just like Meredith and 99 percent of the college students study abroad. College students trying to both learn something and enjoy their experience abroad. Frankly, I see little to think that either were very wild. Both were responsible 20 year olds exploring a new world and new experiences.
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I think the guilters should get even by putting links to Raffaele and Amanda's defense donation sites on tjmk and pmf.net/org.
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RoseMontague said:
I posted a Google translation of the cashiers testimony at IA which I will link here. You should read it. Just another blown out of proportion by the media story.

http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=125154#p125154

I have previously posted a better picture of the underwear purchase at that shop and unlike a traditional thong, it does have coverage on the front and the back.
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But does this have to do with the trial for the murder of Meredith? What if they had purchased scented condoms or god forbid gone to a porno movie?

How does the purchase of underwear get into a trial?

ETA - one thong is 20 to 25 dollars? Really?
 
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Grinder said:
But does this have to do with the trial for the murder of Meredith?

....

How does the purchase of underwear get into a trial?
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Because Amanda Knox had the misfortune to be photogenic. The obsession with her grew out of the fact that her face sold papers and magazines, and it turns out that what people like to read about photogenic women is their sexuality.

We can't know, but I think if she'd been one of those people who can't take a good picture, this whole case would have been different.
 
katy_did said:
Thanks again Michael. I see Vogt has updated her site with the latest dates as well:

So four days between the last court date and the verdict (assuming the dates don't change).
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No. If what Vogt is reporting is correct, then the last court session is on the 20th. Since the previous two dates are earmarked for Sollecito's defence arguments, the 20th date will be for prosecution closing arguments.

Deliberation by the judicial panel will only commence after this final court date on the 20th. A verdict could therefore be announced any time from the 21st onward: it could be as early as the 21st, or as late as (say) the 31st. They deliberate for as long as they like until they are ready to take votes and pronounce a verdict (IIRC there were a few days between the final Hellmann court date and the announcement of the verdict, so perhaps we're looking at something around the 22nd-24th for the verdict).

That's if Vogt's revised court date timings are accurate......
 
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
For those confident that the Nencini court, and ultimately the ISC, will make the right decision regarding the Sollecito/Knox case...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...urt-rules.html
It's been thrown back to the lower level....




bri1 said:
I saw this too, Bill. This judgment completely undermines any idea that the supreme courts in italy are competent.
It's absolutely sick to suggest that a 60 year old having sex with an 11 year old is not child abuse. Sick.
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Where is the outcry from the Italian people? Where are the politicians? Where is the press? An 11 year old from a poor family...is that it? The 60 year old caught naked. It was love? Forget the Italian Supreme Court...if the Italian citizens are so blind or are just so morally corrupt so that this reversal by the ISC is ignored so casually then this is the least of Italy's problems.

Ancient civilization indeed. Only if you take out the civilized part and update the news to today when this stuff is happening. These are barbaric acts by barbarians in modern times. Not so much the individual act, rather the casual acceptance of it by the people of Italy. Fools... Shameful fools!
 
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RandyN said:
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
For those confident that the Nencini court, and ultimately the ISC, will make the right decision regarding the Sollecito/Knox case...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...urt-rules.html
It's been thrown back to the lower level....

[...]

Where is the outcry from the Italian people? Where are the politicians? Where is the press? An 11 year old from a poor family...is that it? The 60 year old caught naked. It was love? Forget the Italian Supreme Court...if the Italian citizens are so blind or are just so morally corrupt so that this reversal by the ISC is ignored so casually then this is the least of Italy's problems.

Ancient civilization indeed. Only if you take out the civilized part and update the news to today when this stuff is happening. These are barbaric acts by barbarians in modern times. Not so much the individual act, rather the casual acceptance of it by the people of Italy. Fools... Shameful fools!
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Interesting question.

In my opinion, it's either because the Italians (overall) are Sheeple or they are so use to this kind of thing they have no hope of getting anyone to listen to their outcries.

Of course when you throw in a threat of spending time in jail for slandering authorities, what can anyone really do. And I'm sure when all is said and done, there are some Italians out there raising their voice.

Would be interesting to find out how and where Italians are allowed to raise their voice(s) in dissent. Are they allowed to protest? Write editorials or opinion pieces either online or on paper?

I'd ask Evelyn's son, but sorry to say, she messed him up big time...

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RandyN said:
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
For those confident that the Nencini court, and ultimately the ISC, will make the right decision regarding the Sollecito/Knox case...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...urt-rules.html
It's been thrown back to the lower level....







Where is the outcry from the Italian people? Where are the politicians? Where is the press? An 11 year old from a poor family...is that it? The 60 year old caught naked. It was love? Forget the Italian Supreme Court...if the Italian citizens are so blind or are just so morally corrupt so that this reversal by the ISC is ignored so casually then this is the least of Italy's problems.

Ancient civilization indeed. Only if you take out the civilized part and update the news to today when this stuff is happening. These are barbaric acts by barbarians in modern times. Not so much the individual act, rather the casual acceptance of it by the people of Italy. Fools... Shameful fools!
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It brings the whole Jerry Sandusky fiasco to mind.
 
LondonJohn said:
No. If what Vogt is reporting is correct, then the last court session is on the 20th. Since the previous two dates are earmarked for Sollecito's defence arguments, the 20th date will be for prosecution closing arguments.

Deliberation by the judicial panel will only commence after this final court date on the 20th. A verdict could therefore be announced any time from the 21st onward: it could be as early as the 21st, or as late as (say) the 31st. They deliberate for as long as they like until they are ready to take votes and pronounce a verdict (IIRC there were a few days between the final Hellmann court date and the announcement of the verdict, so perhaps we're looking at something around the 22nd-24th for the verdict).

That's if Vogt's revised court date timings are accurate......
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That makes sense, except that it would have to be the prosecution rebuttals, rather than closing arguments (since of course they've already given those). Last time I think these were short, limited to only about 30 minutes or an hour for each lawyer.

In the last appeal I think the jury actually started deliberating immediately after the final court hearing, on the 3rd (when Amanda and Raffaele spoke) and the verdict came late in the evening of the same day. So in theory the verdict could presumably be delivered on the 20th, depending on how long they take to deliberate.
 
RandyN said:
Where is the outcry from the Italian people? Where are the politicians? Where is the press? An 11 year old from a poor family...is that it? The 60 year old caught naked. It was love? Forget the Italian Supreme Court...if the Italian citizens are so blind or are just so morally corrupt so that this reversal by the ISC is ignored so casually then this is the least of Italy's problems.

Ancient civilization indeed. Only if you take out the civilized part and update the news to today when this stuff is happening. These are barbaric acts by barbarians in modern times. Not so much the individual act, rather the casual acceptance of it by the people of Italy. Fools... Shameful fools!
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But Randy, where have you been looking to gauge the Italian reaction to this? Most of the articles I've seen have been pretty incredulous: the usual headline is "Him 60, her 11: for the Supreme Court it's love". Like this headline (combined with a picture of a little girl clutching a toy): "A 60 year old has sex with a little child of 11, the Supreme Court: "it was love". Did you read the press release from the Association of Italian Teachers and Educators calling the decision a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Or this article describing the decision as "monstrous"?

Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places.
 
katy_did said:
That makes sense, except that it would have to be the prosecution rebuttals, rather than closing arguments (since of course they've already given those). Last time I think these were short, limited to only about 30 minutes or an hour for each lawyer.
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No: technically, what the prosecution has already made is opening arguments (which often confuses people, since opening arguments come near the end of the court process, as opposed to opening statements, which come at the start).

The order of play in arguments (which commence after the evidence/testimony phase) is as follows:

1) Prosecution opening arguments
2) Civil parties opening arguments
3) Defence closing arguments
4) Prosecution and civil parties closing arguments.

The defence do not get a chance at rebuttal, and only get one chance to present an argument - therefore this one chance is termed a closing argument. The prosecution (and IIRC in Italy, the civil parties) get two "bites at the cherry", primarily because the burden of proof is upon them. They therefore have the chance to address and rebut the defence's closing argument. As a result, their two separate "goes" at argument are termed opening argument and closing argument.


In the last appeal I think the jury actually started deliberating immediately after the final court hearing, on the 3rd (when Amanda and Raffaele spoke) and the verdict came late in the evening of the same day. So in theory the verdict could presumably be delivered on the 20th, depending on how long they take to deliberate.
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In the Hellmann appeal, prosecution closing arguments were (I think) made on 30th September. I think that this is when the clock started on judicial panel deliberations. It's true that Knox and Sollecito were permitted to make statements to the court on the 3rd October (the day of the verdict), but I don't think these were considered material to the nature of the deliberations.

Since prosecution closing in the Nencini trial appears (per Vogt) to be slated for the 20th, I think it's improbable that verdicts will be delivered any time before the 22nd. I think it's very likely that the verdict will come between the 22nd and the 24th, since the 24th is a Friday.
 
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katy_did said:
But Randy, where have you been looking to gauge the Italian reaction to this? Most of the articles I've seen have been pretty incredulous: the usual headline is "Him 60, her 11: for the Supreme Court it's love". Like this headline (combined with a picture of a little girl clutching a toy): "A 60 year old has sex with a little child of 11, the Supreme Court: "it was love". Did you read the press release from the Association of Italian Teachers and Educators calling the decision a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Or this article describing the decision as "monstrous"?

Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places.
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The comment section has some interesting stuff also.

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katy_did said:
But Randy, where have you been looking to gauge the Italian reaction to this? Most of the articles I've seen have been pretty incredulous: the usual headline is "Him 60, her 11: for the Supreme Court it's love". Like this headline (combined with a picture of a little girl clutching a toy): "A 60 year old has sex with a little child of 11, the Supreme Court: "it was love". Did you read the press release from the Association of Italian Teachers and Educators calling the decision a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child? Or this article describing the decision as "monstrous"?

Maybe you're just looking in the wrong places.
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Of course potentially the real tragedy in this case is that it would take an initiative by the Italian executive branch of government, either in the form of an appeal to the ECHR, or by the proposal of changing legislation, to effect any change.

And since the Italian executive seems to a) change on a frighteningly regular basis, and b) be, shall we say, less than impressive on tackling these sorts of issues, I'd gauge it as unlikely that anything will be done.

Things like this really make you wonder where Italy stands in the modern industrialised group of nations. Nearly every forward-thinking and liberal state has introduced rafts of legislation to protect the child (and other vulnerable groups, such as abused female partners) over the past 30-40 years, and ensures that the judiciary carries out the letter and the spirit of the legislation. Italy, on the other hand, seems to be stuck in the relative dark ages regarding these areas. Perhaps it's slightly less surprising when one realises that the Italian penal and criminal codes are still heavily haunted by the spectre of pro-Fascist legislation, which successive governments appear to have been shockingly reluctant to repeal.

As Richard Feynman memorably said after his famous o-ring test in the Challenger space shuttle inquiry: I believe this has some significance for our problem (i.e. the Knox/Sollecito trial process).
 
LondonJohn said:
No: technically, what the prosecution has already made is opening arguments (which often confuses people, since opening arguments come near the end of the court process, as opposed to opening statements, which come at the start).

The order of play in arguments (which commence after the evidence/testimony phase) is as follows:

1) Prosecution opening arguments
2) Civil parties opening arguments
3) Defence closing arguments
4) Prosecution and civil parties closing arguments.

The defence do not get a chance at rebuttal, and only get one chance to present an argument - therefore this one chance is termed a closing argument. The prosecution (and IIRC in Italy, the civil parties) get two "bites at the cherry", primarily because the burden of proof is upon them. They therefore have the chance to address and rebut the defence's closing argument. As a result, their two separate "goes" at argument are termed opening argument and closing argument.
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Well, it's probably just a question of semantics really (along with trying to find equivalent terms for systems which aren't actually equivalent!). The term I've seen used in the Italian press for what I referred to as the prosecution 'closing argument' (a better term is probably 'summation', since that's what it is - a summary of the prosecution case) is 'requisitoria', which generally is translated as something like 'closing statement' or 'summation'. What I called the 'rebuttal' I've generally seen termed 'replica' in Italian, the response, which implies a direct response to the opposing arguments, not a summation of the case as such.

I'd say the most appropriate terms to use would be 'summation' with regard to the first addresses by the prosecution and defence, and 'rebuttal' for the very final statements.

I thought the same as you in terms of the defence not getting a chance at rebuttal arguments, but looking back at the previous appeal it seems they actually do (in fact I think Ghirga spoke on the Monday of the verdict).

LondonJohn said:
In the Hellmann appeal, prosecution closing arguments were (I think) made on 30th September. I think that this is when the clock started on judicial panel deliberations. It's true that Knox and Sollecito were permitted to make statements to the court on the 3rd October (the day of the verdict), but I don't think these were considered material to the nature of the deliberations.

Since prosecution closing in the Nencini trial appears (per Vogt) to be slated for the 20th, I think it's improbable that verdicts will be delivered any time before the 22nd. I think it's very likely that the verdict will come between the 22nd and the 24th, since the 24th is a Friday.
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You may be right. Still, I'd be surprised if they started deliberating earlier, only to come back into court to hear Knox and Sollecito's statements, and possibly even a further statement from Ghirga.

As for this verdict, my money's on 10:30 p.m. on the 21st. :)
 
This case has highlighted the deep flaws in the Italian justice system. Do you feel it is fair to condemn all the Italian people as mindless sheep willing to tolerate a corrupt and backwards justice system and is it right to say the Italians never speak out against abuses by police and prosecutors.
 
Ryan Perry's 2009 and 2012 articles on the case

Link to Perry's Mirror story (Anti-American bias accusations branded "ludicrous" by Meredith Kercher's father) from 8 December 2009 here. There are a number of nontrivial mistakes (example: Quintavalle did not claim that Amanda bought anything), especially considering that this article appeared after the first trial had ended.

In a 2012 article about John Kercher and his book about Meredith, Parry wrote, "'We’re still trying to make sense of it. It’s not as if someone broke in and killed her, there was no robbery or real motive,' John says." It is strange that Mr. Kercher would say that there was no robbery, but it is also strange that Mr. Parry would not make a clarifying note in his article.
 
halides1 said:
Link to Perry's Mirror story (Anti-American bias accusations branded "ludicrous" by Meredith Kercher's father) from 8 December 2009 here. There are a number of nontrivial mistakes (example: Quintavalle did not claim that Amanda bought anything), especially considering that this article appeared after the first trial had ended.

In a 2012 article about John Kercher and his book about Meredith, Parry wrote, "'We’re still trying to make sense of it. It’s not as if someone broke in and killed her, there was no robbery or real motive,' John says." It is strange that Mr. Kercher would say that there was no robbery, but it is also strange that Mr. Parry would not make a clarifying note in his article.
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Yeah, strange ignorance of the facts.
 
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