Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[analemma]

I agree with analemma
What happened is that they early on publicly declared that they had the suspects in custody. They then could not back down from that position. The issue in question for me is if those involved in the prosecution know that AK/RS are innocent or did those involved in the prosecution convince themselves against the evidence.

It was in their interest to convince themselves against the evidence, and they did, and still do.
I may have been misunderstood.
I agree with everyone that miscarriages of justice can occur in the US, or anywhere.
But for the whole NATIONAL judiciary to circle the wagons to protect the hick town to protect NATIONAL Honor, as the Italian Judiciary has, is something that I do not see happening.
And if this case has shown anything, it has shown that the Italian Public is terrified of its own judiciary.

 

[acbytesla]

Where's the website of the Innocence Project in Italy?

I'd agree with Vibio about the US incarcerating too many people and many for non-violent offenses. The US also has its share of wrongful prosecutions and incarcerations. I'm not comfortable comparing the problems with the judicial and penal systems in each country. Both have their issues and because the US has a federal system of government, it will always have some jurisdictions that lag behind the others.

 

[lonepinealex]

It was in their interest to convince themselves against the evidence, and they did, and still do.
I may have been misunderstood.
I agree with everyone that miscarriages of justice can occur in the US, or anywhere.
But for the whole NATIONAL judiciary to circle the wagons to protect the hick town to protect NATIONAL Honor, as the Italian Judiciary has, is something that I do not see happening.
And if this case has shown anything, it has shown that the Italian Public is terrified of its own judiciary.

You're comparing apples and oranges though. The US is a huge affiliation of states, making it closer to the EU rather than an individual European country. That's one of the reasons it's meaningless to talk about the whole US system as a comparison - each state has its own system, just as EU countries do.

 

[Desert Fox]

You're comparing apples and oranges though. The US is a huge affiliation of states, making it closer to the EU rather than an individual European country. That's one of the reasons it's meaningless to talk about the whole US system as a comparison - each state has its own system, just as EU countries do.

It make take decades but New York seems willing to fully exonerate
Virginia and Idaho give limited exoneration
Texas, they execute you anyway

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Vibio,
I've never been to Italy, but I've met more than a few Italian surfers travelin' here in L.A.
cool guys and pretty girls, locals travellin' around the World who live + surf there back at home*.
Italian waves can sometimes be fun, I've seen some pumping surfpix of excellent surf!!!


But after reading of some of the courtroom antics of The Judge and Prosecutors,
in Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito 1st Trial,
I don't wish any foreigners to visit Perugia and ever have to deal with your court system!

1) During the mind numbing cell phone network details, the prosecutor falls asleep.*
2) One eldery juror becomes well known for napping after his lunch.*3) Judge Massei, while on the podium, answers his cell phone while the trial is underway.*
4) Prosecutor Manuela Comodi plays solitaire on her computer when she wasn't on the podium.*
WTF!

Reference:
1) Page 122/123 Angel Face, Author: Barbie Nadeau
2) Page 123 Angel Face, Author: Barbie Nadeau
3) Page 319, Murder in Italy, Author: Candace Dempsey
4) Page 310, Murder in Italy, Author: Candace Dempsey


PS:
*-I've never met an Italian surfer who believed Amanda and Raff
were guilty of participating in Meredith Kercher's horrible murder.
And I like to ask them without giving details of my knowledge of the case.
Hmmmm, what do Italian surfers know?

 

[Vibio]

And if this case has shown anything, it has shown that the Italian Public is terrified of its own judiciary.

Just keep making things up.

I can't find any polls about how whether or not Italians are terrified of their judiciary, but the latest Eurispes poll shows satisfaction with the police at 75%. Higher than the Gallop poll for Americans on the subject.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Reuters overview of Italy's penal system

They substitute the foreign born instead.

The Reuters article to which I linked earlier had a similar statistic. Here is another interesting pair quotes: "Prison rights group Antigone says they are the most crowded in the European Union with occupancy at more than 142 percent of capacity. There are close to 67,000 prisoners in jails built for 45,000...Prison reform group Antigone says a leading cause of overcrowding is the large number of people remanded in custody after being charged instead of being released on bail. They make up 40 percent of the prison population compared to 23 percent in France and 15 percent in Germany and Britain."

The Italian Innocence Project got sued by a bunch of PMs for defamation and went out of business. (J/K)

 

[acbytesla]

The Reuters article to which I linked earlier had a similar statistic. Here is another interesting quote: "Prison reform group Antigone says a leading cause of overcrowding is the large number of people remanded in custody after being charged instead of being released on bail. They make up 40 percent of the prison population compared to 23 percent in France and 15 percent in Germany and Britain."

The Italian Innocence Project got sued by a bunch of PMs for defamation and went out of business. (J/K)

That is in a nutshell, Italy's biggest problems with its judicial system. The PM's and the system has "thin skin". There is no room for criticism. They are far too bus suing people for callunia. It hamstrings everyone. That one single reform would go further in improving their system than anything else. And the reason is simple. It allows the actual identification of the problem which in many cases is that the PM's have far too much power.

 

[Desert Fox]

It was in their interest to convince themselves against the evidence, and they did, and still do.
I may have been misunderstood.
I agree with everyone that miscarriages of justice can occur in the US, or anywhere.
But for the whole NATIONAL judiciary to circle the wagons to protect the hick town to protect NATIONAL Honor, as the Italian Judiciary has, is something that I do not see happening.And if this case has shown anything, it has shown that the Italian Public is terrified of its own judiciary.

Don't forget that Italy has only about twice the population of California or around three times that of Texas. Given the choice for being tried for murder in Texas or Italy, I think I would chose Italy. . . . .Unless I am shooting an "escort" getting away with my money

 

[Vibio]

Hi Vibio,
But after reading of some of the courtroom antics of The Judge and Prosecutors...

This one's for you:

"Former Judge Donald D. Thompson, a veteran of 23 years on the bench, is on trial on charges he used a penis pump on himself in the courtroom while sitting in judgment of others."


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13599320/...rial-brings-lurid-charges-court/#.U9fQEZhTtFQ

 

[Desert Fox]

That is in a nutshell, Italy's biggest problems with its judicial system. The PM's and the system has "thin skin". There is no room for criticism. They are far too bus suing people for callunia. It hamstrings everyone. That one single reform would go further in improving their system than anything else. And the reason is simple. It allows the actual identification of the problem which in many cases is that the PM's have far too much power.

Actual free speech is very important for any democracy to run.
You have to let the crazies talk, have to let the Klan march, etc.

 

[Vibio]

The Italian Innocence Project got sued by a bunch of PMs for defamation and went out of business. (J/K)

*sigh* "TheProfessor"...


http://progettoinnocenti.it/index.php

 

[RWVBWL]

This one's for you:

"Former Judge Donald D. Thompson, a veteran of 23 years on the bench, is on trial on charges he used a penis pump on himself in the courtroom while sitting in judgment of others."

Too funny Vibio!
Thanks for the laugh.
But it's sad. For Judges and Prosecutors are held to The Highest Standard, right?
At least the judge was busted and is facin' trial, possible imprisonment and probale disbarment, right?
Gotta luv The American System, yea!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Urban dictionary

*sigh*

J/K means just kidding.

 

[acbytesla]

This one's for you:

"Former Judge Donald D. Thompson, a veteran of 23 years on the bench, is on trial on charges he used a penis pump on himself in the courtroom while sitting in judgment of others."


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/13599320/...rial-brings-lurid-charges-court/#.U9fQEZhTtFQ

Of course the point is that he is no longer on the bench and is on trial. You still have nutjobs like Nencini sitting on the bench and morons like Mignini working as a PM.

 

[analemma]

Just keep making things up.

I can't find any polls about how whether or not Italians are terrified of their judiciary, but the latest Eurispes poll shows satisfaction with the police at 75%. Higher than the Gallop poll for Americans on the subject.

Are you Peter Quennell or Yummi?

 

[analemma]

Are you Peter Quennell or Yummi?

Sorry: I digress.

Sure they trust their police, that is why every Italian who even knew Meredith and knew how teh police worked lawyered up or left the country as soon as they could, except for Rudy Guede, who was treated as if he already worked for the prosecutors office.

 

[analemma]

Actual free speech is very important for any democracy to run.
You have to let the crazies talk, have to let the Klan march, etc.

Crazies talking and Klan Marches are the price for freedom.
Americans have learned that.
Italy is not willing to pay the price of freedom, freedom in Italy is reserved for those who officially judge others.

 

[codyjuneau]

Maybe Mignini can help

Asked whether Knox “knew some drug dealers” who “could have had a role in the murder,” Mignini insisted “I cannot answer this,” but wrote down their names, according to Giallo’s reporter.

Knox has yet to comment on the cocaine claims, but Mignini warned, “Amanda knows how to lie very well. She seemed sincere and credible.”In light of the new evidence, however, he says he does not expect her to change her testimony. “I would be astonished,” he explained. “She had plenty of occasions to tell her truth.”

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2...onfirmed&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

Note the hilited part. This purported interview is very recent, which makes her near 7 year marathon performance at lying sincerely and credibly impressive. What do these clowns really believe?

See upthread where John Follain relates in his book, "Death in Italy," that at one point Mignini thinks Amanda is sincere, but the very next page Mignini thinks she is a liar and an actress.

And on the basis of Mignini thinking her a liar and an actress, he rushes out and has Lumumba arrested because of what she tells him.

.

I think Mignini may not have thought of her a a liar and an actress until AFTER she recanted her statement, AND they realized Lumumba was innocent.

It is possible the police originally thought she had done nothing more than facilitate a date at the cottage between Lumumba and Meredith which resulted in Lumumba murdering Meredith. For various reasons they had this theory before, during, and immediately after the interrogation. They thought she was either too afraid of Lumumba to tell anyone, she had blocked it from her memory, or both. When they convinced her that she had blocked the memory out ("She buckled and made an admission of facts that we knew were correct") they rushed out and arrested Lumumba and announced case closed to the world. At the time, the police seemed satisfied with her statement that she was cowering in the kitchen holding her hands over her ears while Lumumba was murdering Meredith in the bedroom.

Later, when she re-unblocked her real memory and recanted, and it became apparent that Lumumba had an airtight alibi, Mignini and his minions decided they had been duped and embarrassed by the clever evil American witch bitch so therefore she must be the actual murderer. They never got over it, and any possibility of a fair prosecution and trial after that became impossible.

I am not locked to this theory, but it does explain a lot, and understanding the problem is fundamental to solving the problem. I would like to hear arguments for or against it, particularly with regards to the time-line. For this theory; a sincere police investigation before the interrogation, a prejudiced and dishonest police investigation after Amanda's recanting of her coerced statement.

Interestingly, nothing of the above precludes Rudy from being a police informer, or of some police protecting him. It's just that they either never considered him before the forensic test results were obtained, or if a few did, they never mentioned it.

Cody
.

 

[acbytesla]

.

I think Mignini may not have thought of her a a liar and an actress until AFTER she recanted her statement, AND they realized Lumumba was innocent.

Cody
.

This is really the only lie Amanda told and it had to be coerced out of her. Sadly, even this isn't really a lie. It is an implanted memory by her interrogators. You can tell this by her statements at the time.