Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

I don't think I ever saw anyone with a bitten tongue - and you might not see much within a couple of days as the tongue heals fairly well and quickly. However, if hit hard enough to make you bite your tongue, you would be more likely to have bruised/swollen lip.

It's also difficult to say much about nose injuries - some people will need a fairly significant impact to cause a nose bleed, whereas others can have a nose bleed from as little as a large sneeze. However, if there was a significant impact, you're most likely to get some swelling/bruising.

However, with both injuries the bleeding would be on immediate impact and any blood would most likely be found in the location the fight took place.

I think most people I saw in A&E following fights, had usually done more damage to their hands. Often because they were too drunk to hit straight and accidentally gave the nearest wall a flying punch

Thank you, Nancy.

 

[Mary_H]

I didn't have an opinion & didn't follow the minutiae at all . . . until I listened to WTBH. I went to amazon to write a review & that's where I discovered for the first time the species known here as the PGP.

On that book page they were ugly in every possible way. Dismissive. Vicious. Sarcastic. Just horrible people, swarming like so many hornets. It was the PGP themselves, in other words, who created the breakthrough moment for me. There was obviously something going on that had nothing to do with this random murder.

I did my homework, read here and at IIP and in the source documents (Massei! My god, what madness!) and -- when I could stand it -- at one of their sites. I read all the other books, like a grad student doing a seminar with the assignment of creating a comprehensive literature survey. I spoke with a family friend of Curt Knox who lives close to me, in Seattle.

The breakthrough wasn't about whether Rudy did the crime alone, because it took zero time to figure that out, thanks to all of you. The necessary information was all organized by the time I first looked at it. The breakthrough was about how this case had become a thing for the PGP that is in some sense unrelated to the crime itself.

I love this, kwill. The deep irony is that Skeptical Bystander and Fast Pete (pro-guilt leaders by virtue of being the chief moderators of PMF.org and TJMK) are both people whose entire senses of identity and security rely on other people thinking well of them. Both of them have worked very hard to appear erudite, putting years of life energy into pursuing recognizable cultural icons like French and ballet -- interests that are intended to easily impress other people. They have few esoteric interests, because the point is not the interest, it is building their own public images.

This is their blind spot. As your experience on amazon shows, no one who supports the case for guilt can be considered refined, intellectual, enlightened or pretty in any way, no matter how much they dress up their lifestyles with Europe, travel, reading, the theater, even advanced university degrees. SB and FP could argue that they are not the ones making the comments, but I doubt we would find them using their website forums to disapprove of them.

I believe the expression is "lipstick on a pig."

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>(the PG commentariat has been very nearly silent on this point).<snip>

Excellent coinage, Chris.

 

[Dan O.]

That semen stain found in Meredith's bed probably was tested, and they found that it came from Meredith's boy friend. This information is not relevent to the murder investigation so they decided to save Meredith some embarrassment by telling a little white lie and saying they didn't test it. Hey when you have as many lies in your case as that one did, I guess one more doesn't matter.

The purported semen stain was not found in Meredith's bed. It was found on the pillow that was under Meredith's mostly naked body. In fact, the stain was on the edge of the pillow that was directly under Meredith's vagina.

The claim that the stain could have been her boyfriends is not supported. His testimony is that they only had sex in his bedroom. This stain was visible on the pillow where Meredith would put her face at night. Is she going to keep that pillow case soiled so she would smell it and have sexy dreams at night? Wouldn't it make more sense that she would have washed it with the rest of her dirty laundry.

 

[Mary_H]

From that excellent article MichaelB linked to:

Is it accurate to say that the pro-guilt side believes that since Amanda told police she was present at the murder, we must then assume she is guilty and interpret all evidence under the presumption of guilt until proven innocent?

It certainly seems like that is their default view point, as I have never seen a pro-guilt poster analyze individual pieces of evidence on a balance of probabilities (example: well, the DNA profile could be due to contamination, but you have to prove it since we're sure she is guilty.) It is always things like "you need to prove contamination", "you need to prove the police elicited a false confession", "you need to prove Amanda wasn't screwing Rudy for crack rock", etc etc etc.

In fact, I would bet this is the definition of "osmotic reasoning", if we wanted to formalize it.

This has always been my favorite aspect of pro-guilt reasoning, NotEvenWrong. All of their arguments rest on this approach, "We believe Amanda and use her words against her when she says she is guilty. We don't believe her and ignore her words when she says she is innocent."

 

[Kaosium]

The Supremes considered it highly significant that Toto went into court not just once but twice to tell his story, as if that made it twice as likely to be true. I loved this bit:

'The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances...'

Aww....you sprung my trap! I was hoping a little bunny would hop on that bit of verbiage and tell me how pretentious it was and obfuscatory to the point of incomprehensibility. I cribbed it from Cassation's motivations as you revealed, proving you actually read the goddamn thing.

Unlike the vast majority of the people who accepted the SC quashing as some sort of 'evidence' of Raffaele and Amanda being guilty of something. No, that's not what it does, as the section on Curatolo shows they peddled 'manifest illogicality' under the guise of accusing a perfectly rational argument of being so. They seem to be the sort that thinks if they use enough big words no one will notice they're full of pig manure.

 

[Bill Williams]

This has always been my favorite aspect of pro-guilt reasoning, NotEvenWrong. All of their arguments rest on this approach, "We believe Amanda and use her words against her when she says she is guilty. We don't believe her and ignore her words when she says she is innocent."

...... so:

For six hours of this young woman's life, she confusedly remembers something.

As soon as she is out of the clutches of the cops, and for the next (nearly) seven years, she says she had nothing to do with a tragic death of a friend.

And the entire "case against her" rests on the Reid Technique gone wild. An interrogation technique now banned in some jurisdictions because its propensity for inducing false "confessions" in the young.

All for the sake of six hours in her life, and the tabloid media storm which followed, once they discovered the childhood moniker of "Foxy Knoxy".

Other than that there is no case against her. And even less against Raffaele, who is quite correct when he asks, "What has any of this to do with me?"

That some take Raffaele's question and turn it into lurid Ground Report articles that he's now thrown Knox under a bus, or that Knox is about to throw him under.....

...... has been the problem since the git do.

 

[Anode]

The purported semen stain was not found in Meredith's bed. It was found on the pillow that was under Meredith's mostly naked body. In fact, the stain was on the edge of the pillow that was directly under Meredith's vagina.
The claim that the stain could have been her boyfriends is not supported. His testimony is that they only had sex in his bedroom. This stain was visible on the pillow where Meredith would put her face at night. Is she going to keep that pillow case soiled so she would smell it and have sexy dreams at night? Wouldn't it make more sense that she would have washed it with the rest of her dirty laundry.

Exactly! What Dan O. says.

Given what's hilited, *how is that not of paramount importance to the case*? I'd have expected that would be the first piece of evidence that they tested in the lab.

It's like finding a bullet in a shooting victim and saying, "We don't think it's relevant to the case".

 

[Kaosium]

MichaelB,

Thanks for that. His essay on Dershowitz is also well worth reading.

Salinger, Rather, Dershowitz...

 

[acbytesla]

The purported semen stain was not found in Meredith's bed. It was found on the pillow that was under Meredith's mostly naked body. In fact, the stain was on the edge of the pillow that was directly under Meredith's vagina.

The claim that the stain could have been her boyfriends is not supported. His testimony is that they only had sex in his bedroom. This stain was visible on the pillow where Meredith would put her face at night. Is she going to keep that pillow case soiled so she would smell it and have sexy dreams at night? Wouldn't it make more sense that she would have washed it with the rest of her dirty laundry.

In all fairness Dan, we don't actually know that it is a semen stain. And some stains don't come out with the laundry. What we do know is that it lit up under a blacklight as semen stains do. It absolutely should have been checked however. Since Meredith had only been living in the cottage for two months and those were probably new sheets and pillowcases?? That she bought in or around Perugia when she moved in.

 

[Bill Williams]

The purported semen stain was not found in Meredith's bed. It was found on the pillow that was under Meredith's mostly naked body. In fact, the stain was on the edge of the pillow that was directly under Meredith's vagina.

The claim that the stain could have been her boyfriends is not supported. His testimony is that they only had sex in his bedroom. This stain was visible on the pillow where Meredith would put her face at night. Is she going to keep that pillow case soiled so she would smell it and have sexy dreams at night? Wouldn't it make more sense that she would have washed it with the rest of her dirty laundry.

Exactly! What Dan O. says.

Given what's hilited, *how is that not of paramount importance to the case*? I'd have expected that would be the first piece of evidence that they tested in the lab.

It's like finding a bullet in a shooting victim and saying, "We don't think it's relevant to the case".

My favourite guilter rationale for the non-testing of the pillow slip was when someone said, "the defence team wouldn't allow it." Grahame Rhodes dusted off that reason recently in trying to debunk some other incompetence from the PLE.... for the record, there was no defence team from Nov 2 to Nov 6, a full 4 days that Stefanoni's groups could have tested the stain over no one's objections.

But this is Judge Massei's rationale for not having the stain tested, before or after the defence team was in place....

In this regard, what has been previously observed on the subject is called to mind;
with specific reference to the stains found on the pillowcase, particular mention of
which was made by Sollecito’s defence *team+ during the trial and in the related
illustrative memorandum, the following should be noted: even if a genetic investigation established the spermatic nature of these stains, such an investigation, as a rule, would not allow these stains to be dated and, in particular, it would not be possible to establish that they had been deposited on the night on which Meredith was killed. It having furthermore been established that Meredith had an active
sexual life and at times had intercourse in her own room (cf. on this point the
statements of her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi) such an investigation, besides not
being of a strictly necessary nature due to the impossibility of dating [i.e.
establishing the date] (cf. what was elucidated on this aspect by the genetic experts),
might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic
nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity,
[which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the
requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested.​

That is truly a WTF statement from a judge who allegedly has a legal education.

There's also this incredible bit of judicial reasoning.... "might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic
nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity,....." where Massei says that it is simply not allowed to test it at "this point in the proceedings".

Not ONE mention of the bungling by Stefanoni/Mignini for not testing it both before there were proceedings and before there was a defence team. Not one. In fact, Massei goes out of his way to praise Stefanoni for choosing not to test it.....

 

[Desert Fox]

If they were her boyfriend's semen, I might agree but if it is Guede, I think that is pretty definitive.
If it were Sollecito's semen, I think I would become a guilter

 

[carbonjam72]

Guede stepped in it too...

In all fairness Dan, we don't actually know that it is a semen stain. And some stains don't come out with the laundry. What we do know is that it lit up under a blacklight as semen stains do. It absolutely should have been checked however. Since Meredith had only been living in the cottage for two months and those were probably new sheets and pillowcases?? That she bought in or around Perugia when she moved in.

Didn't the defense consultant also take a picture that showed the semen had also been stepped in by Guede's shoe print, so we also know the presumable semen stain was wet when Guede stepped in it.

Obviously it should have been tested. It still could/should be tested. And ALL the DNA profiles released from downstairs, and all the suppressed profiles, etc.

 

[acbytesla]

'The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances...'

Aww....you sprung my trap! I was hoping a little bunny would hop on that bit of verbiage and tell me how pretentious it was and obfuscatory to the point of incomprehensibility. I cribbed it from Cassation's motivations as you revealed, proving you actually read the goddamn thing.

Unlike the vast majority of the people who accepted the SC quashing as some sort of 'evidence' of Raffaele and Amanda being guilty of something. No, that's not what it does, as the section on Curatolo shows they peddled 'manifest illogicality' under the guise of accusing a perfectly rational argument of being so. They seem to be the sort that thinks if they use enough big words no one will notice they're full of pig manure.

I've always thought the mark of true intelligence is the ability explain something complex and challenging plainly. Why use a 6 syllable word when a 3 syllable word will do and more people will understand you?

As my father use to say;

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS."

Although he used the word for BS. Doesn't exactly sound right using the abbreviation. but what the hell.

 

[Anode]

Originally Posted by Massei p. 383
In this regard, what has been previously observed on the subject is called to mind;
with specific reference to the stains found on the pillowcase, particular mention of
which was made by Sollecito’s defence *team+ during the trial and in the related
illustrative memorandum, the following should be noted: even if a genetic
investigation established the spermatic nature of these stains, such an investigation,
as a rule, would not allow these stains to be dated and, in particular, it would not be possible to establish that they had been deposited on the night on which Meredith was killed. It having furthermore been established that Meredith had an active
sexual life and at times had intercourse in her own room (cf. on this point the
statements of her boyfriend Giacomo Silenzi) such an investigation, besides not
being of a strictly necessary nature due to the impossibility of dating [i.e.
establishing the date] (cf. what was elucidated on this aspect by the genetic experts),
might also yield an entirely irrelevant outcome even for establishing the spermatic
nature of those very stains and seems to be, therefore, a purely explorative activity,
[which] is not permitted at this stage of the proceedings because it is lacking in the
requirement for absolute necessity which was, on the contrary, requested.

That's ridiculous! Why doesn't he say that about Amanda's genetic material in her shared bathroom??

 

[acbytesla]

Didn't the defense consultant also take a picture that showed the semen had also been stepped in by Guede's shoe print, so we also know the presumable semen stain was wet when Guede stepped in it.

Obviously it should have been tested. It still could/should be tested. And ALL the DNA profiles released from downstairs, and all the suppressed profiles, etc.

I agree, there is no excuse whatsoever that they can take 400 samples or more and perform DNA analysis and ignore underneath the bottom of the victim a stain that lights up under a blacklight like semen. If you were the police, I'd think you'd want to test it. If that semen belonged to Raffaele it would be "don't let the cell door smack you on the ass Raffaele". If it's Rudy, it is just more of the true mountain of evidence against Rudy. If it belongs to her boyfriend...well then maybe he and Rudy and Meredith had the sex gone wrong. I mean if he had said, that they never had sex in her room than he's lying about something.

This all proof that this isn't a search for the truth, but a true lynching Perugia style. They know because the defense wants it tested that it isn't Raffale, so they have no interest in testing it.

 

[anglolawyer]

'The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances...'

Aww....you sprung my trap! I was hoping a little bunny would hop on that bit of verbiage and tell me how pretentious it was and obfuscatory to the point of incomprehensibility. I cribbed it from Cassation's motivations as you revealed, proving you actually read the goddamn thing.

Unlike the vast majority of the people who accepted the SC quashing as some sort of 'evidence' of Raffaele and Amanda being guilty of something. No, that's not what it does, as the section on Curatolo shows they peddled 'manifest illogicality' under the guise of accusing a perfectly rational argument of being so. They seem to be the sort that thinks if they use enough big words no one will notice they're full of pig manure.

I can only apologise, Kaosium. I had no idea you were being sneaky . Still, let's just have one more peek at the text I quoted before.

The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances, so that the conclusion - taken that the witness was confused in indicating the two young students today accused were present in Grimana Square on the evening of October 31 and not November 1 - clashes with the acquired data that contrasts with the apodictic assumption, so as to manifest in all his evidence a foundation of debit of consistency and therefore manifest illogicality of the discourse of justification

I had to look up 'apodictic'. Turns out it means 'clearly established'. It's quite fun to try to interpret this stuff bearing in mind:
a) it may well be meaningless in the original Italian and/or
b) it may have been mis-translated.

Others may disagree (there is surely room for several opinions) but I think what their judgeships are saying is that Hellman pulled a dirty, underhand trick in tripping up poor old Toto by making a big deal out of his confusion between the 31st and the 1st since it had been clearly established that he could not have meant the 31st since we know Amanda and Raff were not in the vicinity of the square on that date.

To be serious for one second, this is one of the weird aspects of the system: no one can ever be dismissed as a liar, even though everybody lies all the time. Thus, Stefanoni suffered an 'understandable lapse of memory' when clearly lying. Hellman treated Curatolo 'logically' when rejecting his evidence rather than just sizing him up as an obviously unreliable witness. It's tempting to dismiss the whole system as a farce but I doubt it is entirely denuded of justice, just that it expresses itself in ways we don't readily relate to. Hellman's acquittal itself is not free from problems due to this peculiar feature.

 

[platonov]

It appears I was wrong ....

I agree, there is no excuse whatsoever that they can take 400 samples or more and perform DNA analysis and ignore underneath the bottom of the victim a stain that lights up under a blacklight like semen. If you were the police, I'd think you'd want to test it. If that semen belonged to Raffaele it would be "don't let the cell door smack you on the ass Raffaele". If it's Rudy, it is just more of the true mountain of evidence against Rudy. If it belongs to her boyfriend...well then maybe he and Rudy and Meredith had the sex gone wrong. I mean if he had said, that they never had sex in her room than he's lying about something.

This all proof that this isn't a search for the truth, but a true lynching Perugia style. They know because the defense wants it tested that it isn't Raffale, so they have no interest in testing it.

Leaving aside .....

The portability of pillows [as apposed to the murder victims bra clasp *] i.e. it could have been borrowed by RS & AK prior to the murder and replaced after use, hygiene not being a big deal with the american apparently.

& the late stage at which the defence raised the issue as a delaying tactic

& the your use of the term ' lynching'. As in this case it means applying due process going after the wealthy connected Italian and the American who is the focus of much media attention to protect the black African immigrant, I can understand the appellation 'Perugia style'. I'm guessing that's not how lynchings work in your part of the world.

Whats more striking is your mention of the Italian boyfriend who had an alibi in a different city The denigration of the victim is old hat but to bring him into the mix is a new departure.
We have had time travel and all manner of conspiracy theories in cartwheel world.

But teleportation / bi-location appears to be original.

Kudos to you – the bar has been raised yet again.

 

[Samson]

It seems that the PGP rely very heavily on court documents, the false accusation and the psychological profiling. I am encouraged that high priest Popper is reading here, and hopefully he is being indirectly addressed.

He just said

I wonder if such clowns are for real, debating on a case for years without reading the documents, waiting for a pmf translation that will be ignored anyway as they have already made up their mind it was a conspiracy, without any evidence of course.

Tomorrow I will go on a Japanese website and start discussing a Japanese criminal case of which I have read nothing. I will state my interpretation is that all judges and lawyers in the case (whom I do not know) are part of a gigantic conspiracy I cannot prove. I will ask people on the forum to plug a camera so I will see them lol on the floor.

This is supposed to explain why it is pointless to have a view on this case without reading Nencini in Italian.

In theory, he should have the intellectual horsepower to realise the language in this case is science all the way, somewhat analogous to air traffic control being English all the way.
They are deluded if they believe the Italian language is a pre requisite to finding the solution to this case.

I assume Popper is in some way smart because as a native Italian speaker he writes flawless English.

 

[acbytesla]

Leaving aside .....

The portability of pillows [as apposed to the murder victims bra clasp *] i.e. it could have been borrowed by RS & AK prior to the murder and replaced after use, hygiene not being a big deal with the american apparently.

Thanks for the big laugh platonov. Amanda never had sex with Raffaele in the house either.....according to their testimony. So no...that argument also goes out the window.

& the late stage at which the defence raised the issue as a delaying tactic

You can't be serious? Were you comfortable writing something that moronic?? It has been 7 years since the murder, it takes a couple of days at most to get a result. Hardly a delaying tactic.

& the your use of the term ' lynching'. As in this case it means applying due process going after the wealthy connected Italian and the American who is the focus of much media attention to protect the black African immigrant, I can understand the appellation 'Perugia style'. I'm guessing that's not how lynchings work in your part of the world.

OK, you're right lynching might not be the right term. How about a kangaroo court or a trial Saddam Hussein style.

But whats more striking is your mention of the Italian boyfriend who had an alibi in a different city The denigration of the victim is old hat but to bring him into the mix is a new departure.

If the boyfriend had said that he and Meredith never had sex in her bedroom platanov and his semen shows up on the pillow below her ass, that says, he's lying or that lab is incompetent. I have no problem that he has an alibi. So did Amanda...until the nuts in Perugia decided her alibi should also be railroaded with her.

But teleportation / bi-location appears to be original.

Kudos to you – the bar has been raised yet again.

I am not accusing the boyfriend. I'm saying there is no reason whatsoever not to test the purported semen stain. Not on November 7,2007 or today.