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Continuation Part Nine: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Is it true that Nencini actually makes the argument that RS called the carabinieri after the postal police arrived.

Acc. to Luca Cheli, it's hard to know what Nencini is arguing.

It all starts in the motivations report with Nencini saying that once the alleged "clean-up" was done, that once it was just the way they wanted it, (Nencini says that) Knox and Sollecito, "fuoriuscita dalla scena", or "exited the scene," as actors do once a scene is complete.

Cheli says that this implies that Nencini thinks the two intended to flee. However, losing track of that thought, Cheli observes this:

Cheli said:
So I wondered if Nencini perhaps implied that Knox and Sollecito wanted to flee, to perhaps even leave the country and were just prevented from doing so by what Nencini, later in the ruling, seems to consider an early discovery of the corpse due to the unforeseen arrival of the Postal Police. Or maybe he is simply implying that they just wanted to leave for Gubbio and let others discover the body.
However in both cases calling Romanelli and alerting her about the burglary and that something could have happened to Meredith (albeit not a murder) well before the arrival of the Postal Police belies such an interpretation, as we will repeat when dealing with the discovery of the murder.

In the end I am left wondering what Nencini really meant with those three words, whether something “remained in the pen” or if it is just a dead end in a ruling written by multiple authors lacking coordination.​

But, a short answer to your question is that Nencini does think that the postal police's arrival "forced" Raffaele to make the call to the carabinieri. The trouble is, Nencini implies that Raffaele made the call in the moments after the discovery of Meredith's body.

Nobody, not Mattieni, Mignini, Crinii nor anyone else makes this argument. Judge Massei in 2010 even in convicting the two said that the call to the carabinieiri was made at 12:51 pm, while the Postals arrived, "just before 1 pm."

But Cheli summarizes Nencini's "reasoning" this way:

Cheli said:
Nencini instead deems that Sollecito called the Carabinieri only after the arrival of the Postal Police because:

1) nobody was able to testify where Sollecito was when the door of Kercher’s room was kicked down;

2) the Postal Police arrived at 12:36 pm and for a “long” time they did not look carefully at Knox and Sollecito because they had no reason to do so;

3) there is also a “logical” argument: Romanelli begged Knox to call the Carabinieri at 12:35 pm while the first call was made only at 12:51; why did they wait for so long? because they indeed did not want to make that call and only the arrival of the Postal Police forced them to make the call.​

Acc. to Cheli, crucial to Nencini's guilty verdict is his view that Sollecito and Knox were actually desperate NOT to be found at the cottage when the corpse was discovered. Nencini said that they wanted the body found....

Nencini p. 174 said:
"....at the presence of other witnesses, who could have validated [taken for real] the staging of the intruder’s break-in from the window of the bedroom used by Romanelli (…) the unexpected arrival of Inspector Battistelli created a sudden disturbance. The police weren’t expected, because no one had yet called law enforcement, and the two defendants did not know the reason for their intervention. Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito hence found themselves facing a situation they had not foreseen, which had not been planned and requiring immediate countermeasures. The officers were then accompanied to see what purportedly was the scene of a theft and reassured that the Carabinieri had already been called and hence that their intervention was absolutely not necessary. But the two officers were not there by chance, since they were looking for Filomena Romanelli, who lived there and so they did not go away“.​

Cheli says that Nencini builds one logical blunder upon another (much like what might happen if two or more authors were involved and not telling each other what they were writing!). But the timing of the call(s) to the carabinieri are key.... Nencini has constructed a timeline based on his notion that after the clean-up, Knox and Sollecito, "fuoriuscita dalla scena".... but then has them hanging around to be "surprised" by the Postals. All this, despite Knox already notifying no less than Filomena that there was a problem back at the cottage.... How was Knox to know that Filomena herself had not called the carabinieri!?

So the whole problem is, as with all guilter timelines, is that the timeline falls apart - esp. when trying to fit in elements of the case with some overarching, osmotic idea..... like Nencini's stage play scenario....

It all collapses.
 
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this seems to have been written by Nancy Grace, or Ted Turner or some other idiot from Atlanta.
It appeared as a pop up ad for HLN


Your questions answered: The Amanda Knox trial

Amanda Knox is being retried for allegedly killing a British exchange student in 2007
HLN answers some of the most frequently asked questions about this complicated case

The Amanda Knox case is a long and complicated story, and it isn’t over yet.

Knox is currently being tried a third time for the murder of her former flatmate, Meredith Kercher, a 21-year-old British student studying abroad in Perugia, Italy, who was stabbed to death in 2007.

Read more: Knox's retrial takes a supernatural turn

Here are five of the most frequently asked questions about the case.

Why is Knox on trial again?

In 2009, Knox and her ex-boyfriend and co-defendant Raffaele Sollecito were convicted of killing Kercher. The convictions were overturned due to a “lack of evidence” in 2011, but Italy’s Supreme Court ruled last year to retry the case, saying that the jury didn’t take all the evidence into consideration.
Of course they didn't, everyone knows that evidence is bull ****!
This wouldn’t happen in America. The double jeopardy clause of the Fifth Amendment prevents the government from prosecuting someone for the same crime more than once.
And if Rudy did this crime in Texas the D.A. would not have taken AK & RS to court. He would have got Rudy convicted, sentenced to death, and he would have gotten the needle by now.

Why does it seem like court only happens once a week?

The way the appeals court in Florence, Italy, scheduled the retrial is different from the way cases are usually handled in America. Instead of handling the case all at once, the Italian appeals court scheduled the court dates for the retrial in a piecemeal fashion.

The next hearing in the retrial will be in December, when defense attorneys will give their summations, which are similar to closing arguments. A ruling is not expected from the appellate court until January.

Who might have killed Kercher if Knox and Sollecito didn’t do it?

There isn’t a clear answer to this question. Like duh.......Rudy
However, it is important to remember that prosecutors have accused three people of killing Kercher. In fact there was another person convicted in the case, their star witness Rudy Guede, an Ivory Coast citizen who said he was intimate with Kercher, was later convicted of her murder. He is currently serving a 16-year prison sentence. Originally, prosecutors were going to try all three of the defendants together, but Guede requested a separate trial.

Guede has claimed that Knox and Sollecito are responsible for Kercher's death.
He also claimed that he was on the toilet and listening to his Ipod with the ear phones, so he didn't hear the murder.
He even wrote a letter to a news website in the spring of 2010, referring to "a horrible homicide of a splendid young girl, Meredith Kercher, by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito."
He is the only witness we have to take his word for it

Is Knox attending her new trial?

No, and it seems unlikely that she will return to Italy. Family spokesman David Marriott has said Knox never agreed to attend her new trial, and there's "no requirement she be there." However, Marriott did say there is a chance the Italian government could request her extradition from the United States.

Knox returned home to Seattle in October 2011, and she has led a relatively low-profile life since then. However, she has granted a few media interviews and released a book, “Waiting to be Heard: A Memoir.”
This pissed off the Italians so they took back her acquittal and found her guilty again.

If she's convicted, is there any chance she could be forced to return to Italy to be punished?

If convicted, Italy could ask the United States for her extradition. However, if this happens there will likely be a lengthy court battle in the United States to determine whether to hand her over.

More from HLNtv.com

Cops: Mom fatally poisons baby with hand sanitizer

Cops: Mom promised kids fun trip, killed them

Mom Sentenced to Life in Prison for Putting Baby in Microwave

Why did these 5 women die in the bathroom?



23 more items
 
No. I've seen enough to convince me there actually are guilters who believe believe that
1) the absence of evidence is evidence of clean up
AND
2) evidence of clean up is evidence of Amanda's guilt.

They may not express both beliefs simultaneously, they may not even realize that they hold both beliefs, and they certainly are unaware of the circular nature of their thinking, but they if you follow their postings long enough both will be expressed.

Precisely. They staged the whole thing to make it look just as though they didn't do it and this is how you can tell they are guilty. It's obvious!
 
Even worse is he had to follow instructions from a panel of judges who had even less knowledge of the case and evidence going from the report they wrote. Just one way of telling this is looking at Hellmann-Zanetti and the Supreme Court Motivations regarding Curatolo, which I'll put in spoiler boxes for aesthetic reasons:

Curatolo

[Curatolo, pp. 43-51; translated by teddypots, a.k.a. Newcomer]

The presence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Piazza Grimana, between the hours of 9:30 pm and 11:30 pm of 1st November, according to the prosecution, represents circumstantial evidence against them in that it reveals the alibi provided (having stayed at Sollecito’s house) to be false and therefore, with the alibi discredited [falsità di alibi], [demonstration of] their guilt in the alleged crimes.

In truth, even if in theory true, it would be an element of weak circumstantial evidence, in that on its own it is not even sufficient to prove a presumption of guilt, since the falsity of the alibi, although certainly usable as circumstantial evidence, is certainly not on its own sufficient to prove guilt, as it could be explained through other purposes or motives [potendo trovare spiegazione anche in altri fini e moventi]. Such as the fear of not being believed while being innocent: in the case being tried, for example, if they had been present inside the house on Via Della Pergola and yet not involved in committing the crime.

Obviously, conviction for the crime being tried cannot be based on [rappresentare una sanzione per] the falsity of the alibi alone, having on the contrary, to be the result of a demonstration of guilt beyond all reasonable doubt, through proven facts [prove certe] or also through a collection of circumstantial evidence, in which the falsity of the alibi can play a role [assumere un proprio momento] but not even the most important one.

The fact of the discredited alibi, even if in theory true, would lose all relevance if the time of death (whose determination presented a particularly complex problem from a medical point of view) should be estimated between 9:00 pm and 9:30 pm (the time in which the prosecution is certain that the two youngsters were at the house of Sollecito) or also any time before 11:30 pm given that Curatolo testified that the youngsters were present in Piazza Grimana in that time period.

But this is not at all certain.

The presence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in Piazza Grimana between the hours of 9:30 pm and 11:30 pm of 1st November was, in fact, reported only by witness Curatolo, whose credibility this court very much doubts for the following reasons.

First, the deterioration of his intellectual faculties, revealed by the responses given before this Court during his testimony (hearing of 3.26.2011) and resulting from his type of lifestyle and from his habits.

[Mr. Curatolo] is a tramp who at the time lived on the streets whereas today he is detained serving a sentence [detenuto in espiazione di pena] for drug-trafficking [spaccio di sostanza stupefacente] and who, when asked why he had chosen this type of life (at times, in fact, such choices are motivated by idealistic reasons), he responded: “…Because … really I’m an anarchist however I have read the bible and I became a Christian anarchist… and so this is what I chose…”.

However – the Court observes – this idealistic urge [spinta ideale] to follow the example of Jesus (to quote “…to follow the life of Christ I chose to follow this type of life…”) did not prevent him from committing many crimes, such that, when questioned about the types of crimes committed, he replied: “Several, several, you know, some precedents for drugs, some precedents for political reasons…”.

Nor did it prevent him from selling drugs or making use of them himself, so that when questioned on the point, he responded: “…I have always taken drugs” and to the question “even in 2007?”, “yes” and on the type of drug “…I always took heroin” adding immediately “I want to clarify that heroin is not a hallucinogen…”.

Today he maintains that he no longer takes drugs because – as noted – he is being detained serving a sentence [espiazione di pena] but, when asked to clarify whether he knows whether he is imprisoned for a definitive conviction [condanna definitiva, i.e. a conviction confirmed by the Cassazione], he responded: “er [boh], I still haven’t understood anything however I think so… they took me and they put me in prison”.

Now, it cannot be absolutely excluded that a person of his type, who has a tendency to cover himself in an idealistic choice of lifestyle (anarchic christian) while taking heroin and above all else selling drugs, and that is so confused that he does not even know whether he is in prison serving a definitive sentence [esecuzione di una condanna definitive] or not, can have nevertheless reported as a witness facts that really were perceived and can have recognized the two current defendants as the youngsters seen that evening in Piazza Grimana. But certainly, when evaluating the credibility or otherwise of the witness we must proceed with particular caution, considering the personal circumstances identified [attese le condizioni personali evidenziate].

Curatolo, questioned in the hearing of 3.28.2009 (in the trial [istruttoria dibattimentale] of the lower court), reported having have seen the current defendants lingering there [soffermarsi] engaged in deep discussion, between 9:30 pm, when he arrived in Piazza Grimana, and “before midnight”, when, once the buses had left (about ten minutes later), that took the people [giovani] to the discotheques, he also left to go and sleep in the park.

When facing some questions and clarifications [delle contestazioni] by the Public Minister the timelines were then changed to be less precise – 9:30 pm 10:00 pm / 11:30 pm – but in reality, while the witness’ initial information was provided on the basis of the presence (evidently regulated [evidentemente al controllo]) of the clock situated in Piazza Grimana and of that in his possession, the final information [on the times] was anchored to the departure of the buses from Piazza Grimana to the discotheques (the departure times of the buses were found to be: between 11:00 pm and 11:30 pm, witness Brughini in the hearing of 3.26.1011; between 11:15 pm and 11:30 pm, witness Pucciarini in the hearing of 3.12.2011; between 11:30 pm and midnight, witnesses Bevilacqua and Ini Gaetano in the hearing of 3.12.2011, particularly credible as they are owners [titolari] of the bus companies [linee di autobus] that provide the shuttle bus services for the discotheques). Therefore there is no doubt that – according to Curatolo’s testimony – he saw the two youths at least until after 11:30 pm.

The main problem, however, is on which day – again according to his version – did the witness see the two youths: 31 October or 1 November?

He did not indicate the day as a date [con riferimento al calendario] (31 October or 1 November) but connected what he reported about the two youths from a recollection [rappresentazione] of circumstances that could allow him to determine it.

In fact he stated that on the evening when he saw the two youths there were a lot of masks, young people [giovani] that were joking about, that there was pandemonium [“un casino”] (quoting from the hearing of 3.28.2009 “…There were other people however that were messing about a bit, it was a holiday period…”) and again he confirmed the presence of masks, of young people joking about and pandemonium [“un casino”] at the hearing of 3.26.2011 in front of this Court (and in fact he responded affirmatively to the question of Ms. Bongiorno, formulated exactly in these terms) and also recalled (at both the hearing of 3.28.2009 and in front of this Court in the hearing of 3.26.2011) that there were the buses taking the young people [giovani] to the discotheques, such that he correlated [ha ancorato] his stay in Piazza Grimana up until about ten minutes after their departure, at a time indicated as between 11:30 pm – midnight.

According to the defense such circumstances (regardless of whether the two youths seen by the witness were actually the current defendants) would prove that the day in which the witness saw what he reported, was 31 October and not 1 November, considering that the masks were being worn to celebrate Halloween, which in fact falls on the night between 31 October and 1 November and not on the night between 1 November and 2 November, and considering also, that the buses for the discotheques had to be present the evening of 31 October and not the following evening. In fact, practically all the discotheques, open all night between 31 October and 1 November specifically because it was Halloween, remained understandably closed the following evening, the night between 1 November and 2 November, for the anticipated lack of customers the day immediately following a holiday.

On the other hand, according to the Prosecutor’s Office and the civil party (and also according to the Corte di Assise of first level) because the witness had also testified, both in the hearing of 3.28.2009 and in front of this Court in the hearing of 3.26.2011, that the following day after the evening in which he saw the two youths in Piazza Grimana he was taken aback by the coming and going on Via Della Pergola of the Carabinieri and of men dressed in white, that seemed to him to be “Martians”, (evidently the staff of the Scientific Police wearing jumpsuits), the evening in which he saw the two youths must have definitely been that of 1 November, preceding the Scientific Police’s investigation at the scene of the crime, which occurred on the same day of the discovery of the body (2 November). In fact, an unusual event like the coming and going of Carabinieri and Scientific Police was likely to remain imprinted in Curatolo’s mind and, however, again according to the General Prosecutor and the civil party, it is not true that all the discotheques remained closed on the evening of 1 November 2007 or that there were no buses to take the young people [giovani] to the discotheques.

Now, however, all the managers of the large discotheques (Red Zone, Etoile, Gradisca), called to testify in front of this court (Brughini in the hearing of 3.26.2011; Mandarino in the hearing of 3.12.2011; Pucciarini in the hearing of 3.12.2011) confirmed that, indeed, the discotheques were open the night between 31 October and 1 November 2007, for the celebration of Halloween, but not the following night, because it would not have been commercially advantageous, and that consequently, the buses that transported the young people to the discotheques taking them from Piazza Grimana, were active that night but not the following.

The owners of the two bus lines (Bevilacqua, Ini Gateano and Ini Rosa in the hearing of 3.12.2011) also confirmed this fact.

That the larger discotheques, essentially the only ones that had run a shuttle bus service because of the distant position from the historic centre [centro storico] had stayed closed, is evident also from the statement of the official of SIAE, Ciasullo (hearing of 3.12.2011), while the opening of the discotheques of lesser importance, located in the centre of Perugia and therefore not requiring the services of shuttle buses, and anyway not used by them, is from the statement of Dr. Napoleoni and of the official of SIAE.

Now, however, that some of the small discotheques in the centre were also open on the evening of 1 November counts for little, with it being certain on the other hand that the larger ones were closed, a long way from the centre, for which the only connection was the service provided by the buses; considering above all, that they were large buses, capable of transporting at least 50 people at a time (as testified by Bevilacqua in the hearing of 3.12.2011) and therefore, clearly destined to reach the large discotheques a long way from the centre. And because the fact stated by Curatolo (departure of the buses that transported the young people [giovani]) is what it is, also for the way in which it was described (there was pandemonium [“un casino”], the possibility of considering it as a single and more modest shuttle bus is to be excluded, and so one concludes logically that his account, in the context in which he saw the two youths in Piazza Grimana, refers to the evening of 31 October and not of 1 November.

The General Prosecutor, however, argued that in Perugia the discotheques usually organized the so-called “Students’ Thursday” and that, as 1 November was a Thursday, it could have happened that that evening a lot of young people and also the buses for the shuttle service were present. But, in reality, there is no proof that such a “Students’ Thursday” (whose purpose was to give a reason, in weeks that otherwise would not have offered any inspiration, to party in the discotheques) were organized in the year 2007 and, above all, against the statements made by the managers of the discotheques and of the owners of the bus companies [linee] that ran the shuttle services (all people whose credibility there is no reason to doubt), it has to be concluded that these Thursday evenings for students were nonetheless overshadowed [superati] by a holiday like Halloween that has nowadays taken root even in our country. Therefore, there was no reason to also celebrate that Thursday, the day following Halloween.

It is thus evident that the statements made by Curatolo present two situations that are contradictory: having seen the two youths in Piazza Grimana the evening before the investigation by the Scientific Police and however, at the same time, having connected the event in the context of Halloween, which is the evening of 31 October.

Less significant, in trying to put a time on the event, is the fact that Curatolo remembered that the paving of the square [Piazza] was wet due to the cleaning of the market that was done on 31 October (Thursday being a holiday) and that, therefore, would have been done the next morning.

Apart from the fact that there is no proof that the market cleaning was done on the Thursday (also because it was a holiday Thursday), it seems difficult to believe that the wet ground, as a result of the cleaning of the square, had remained for the whole day; and so it seems more probable that it came from rain that certainly occurred, as confirmed also by the Public Minister Dr. Mignini based on the statements made by some witnesses (Marco Zaroli, Dr. Napoleoni). Even if evidently, the rain had by then stopped that evening in Piazza Grimana, though continuing to rain in the area around the Faculty of Engineering, with these two places being further apart, aerially, than the distance between Piazza Grimana and the S. Egidio airport, where according to the meteorological data for that day it had not rained.

It is opportune to report the words of witness Zaroli in his statement made in the hearing of 2.6.2009, in response to whether it rained or not on the evening of 31 October he responded, quoting: “…I remember that it was raining when I left from the Engineering [Faculty] to go to the house of Filomena and Meredith. The rain was quite intense, I don’t remember anything else…”.

So, he remembers the rain at the moment he left the Faculty of Engineering but not after dinner when he left the house on Via Della Pergola with Filomena and the other friends to go to the cinema, when it would be logical to believe that, if it had also rained in that moment, he would have remembered.

Therefore, from Zaroli’s statements it cannot be deduced that it was raining in Piazza Grimana, near Via Della Pergola, to an extent that Curatolo would not have stayed and spent time on the bench or that the two youths would not have been there in deep discussion, and seen by Curatolo.

However, what it does show is that there is a lot of confusion in the memory of the witness.

In truth the General Prosecutor himself, Dr. Costagliola, while stressing that the timing of events is made clear by its connection to the investigation by the Scientific Police, also recognized that Curatolo had mixed up the two days (31 October and 1 November) (quoting from his closing argument [requisitoria] of 9.23.2011 “…And so it is evident that the vagrant [il Clochard] mixed up the two events, the night of Halloween and the sighting of the defendants…” and also the Public Minister Dr. Mignini, while highlighting the relevance – according to him decisive – of the connection with the sighting the day after of the Scientific Police, admitted that for Curatolo time had a relative value (as quoted in his rebuttal of 9.30.2011 “…It is clear that this tramp, it is clear that time does not have the same significance for this tramp as it does for us, this is clear…”.

But then – this Court asks – how can one really say with certainty that his memory refers to 1 November and not 31 December [recte: October]?

But, above all, how can one sustain that Curatolo’s power of recall [capacità mnemoniche] would allow him to really remember the course of events and even to remember that it was the two defendants that he saw?

Nor do the statements made by other witnesses about Curatolo’s way of life in Piazza Grimana allow one to overcome the considerable doubts about his credibility, because this behavior, which nobody has contradicted, does not lessen the holes and contradictions evidenced.

Moreover, once it is concluded that the reality surrounding [events] was 31 October and not 1 November, it would seem more logical to reconsider the sighting of the two youths in that context, therefore on 31 October, because it is contemporaneous with the sighting, rather than the next day which is the day preceding the arrival of the Scientific Police, but thus necessarily extrapolated from context.

Therefore, this Court does not consider credible the testimony of witness Curatolo, it being impossible to reliably verify his account [non potendo essere riposte alcun affidamento sulla verificazione dell’espisodio] and, above all, the identification of the two youths as being the current defendants.



Supreme Court Judgement p. 49-51:

4. - The testimony of CURATOLO The Appellate Courts have ruled out the credibility of the testimony of Antonio Curatolo who in the re-enactment of the Courts of First Instance which had been placed as fundamental to proof of the falsity of the negative alibi advanced by the two defendants and that was one of the pieces of the mosaic that had led to consider them at the locus delicti commissi.

In this regard it is worth remembering that the judges of the lower court had held, by correct reasoning from the point of view of straight logic, that the false alibi was taken as a heavy indication, considered in relation to the other elements of test and in the context of the overall probative results. The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances, so that the conclusion - taken that the witness was confused in indicating the two young students today accused were present in Grimana Square on the evening of October 31 and not November 1 - clashes with the acquired data that contrasts with the apodictic assumption, so as to manifest in all his evidence a foundation of debit of consistency and therefore manifest illogicality of the discourse of justification (it was in fact demonstrated by other sources that on the evening of 31 October both Knox and Sollecito were busy, the first at Lumumba’s place where there was seething activity for the celebration of Halloween, the second at a graduation party, so they could not have been present on the square Grimana around 23.00 h).


The claim according to which the sighting of the two young people by the witness went back to October 31 (page 50 of the judgment) because it was suited to the context described above, rather than the next day, as previous to the arrival of forensic science, but taken out of context, is a manifestly illogical statement, not only because it conflicts with the data that substantiates unequivocally the distance of the two from the square on the evening of October 31 (as of paramount importance in the context of evaluation) and then the inability to make square the circle in the way suggested, but because it fulfills rules of inference of absolute weakness.

Starting from the need to untie the knot of contradictions that the witness presented (having seen the two young people the night before the activities of the Scientific Police and having put it down to the context of Halloween), the Court of Appeal, after hearing the witness in renewed testimony and found that he had mistakenly placed Halloween on the night between November 1 and November 2, heard the witness reiterate that its timing was anchored to what he described as actors all dressed in white that afternoon, the day after sighting of two young young people, in Via della Pergola (given with a very high quotient of uniqueness, more than any other), clearly the police; the court nevertheless concluded that the testimony could not be accepted, due to the decay of the mental faculties of the man, accustomed to heroin and his modus vivendi, being held in custody at the time of his second deposition, for drug trafficking.

Again, this line of argument is manifestly illogical, since the evaluation of testimony was correlated (regardless of its conclusions, being in discussion the method of evaluation) with the sole objective fact that was highly reliable (namely the presence of subjects in white suits, the day after the sighting of the two in the square, around 23.00 h to midnight), because given the certain fact in his subsistence, which represented individualizing circumstances, unique in its kind, which would be bound to remain etched in the minds more than any other; and instead once again have been made to come into play data of personality, however, alleged without any acknowledgment of a scientific nature that had to show the decay of the mental faculties of a man.

Not to mention that Curatolo had to show up, once called to testify, both at First and Second Instance, and never found it difficult to recognize, even after a long time, the two defendants as those who he had seen on Grimana Square the evening before he noticed men dressed in white in Via della Pergola (who he called "extraterrestrials") and the police. The fact that he was a tramp who was stationed on the square all day, did not allow to rule out a priori his reliability, on pain of collision with the principles laid down in terms of reliability of testimony.

In conclusion this cannot be overcome, except by a process of development of his informative contribution data of otherwise demonstrative force, a contribution expressed in terms of certainty, given by the witness at the trial papers, also in renewing the testimony ("absolutely certain as I'm sitting here" as to the fact that he saw the two defendants in the evening before the day on which he saw the ones with the white suits and the police), referring to the status of the author of the contribution.

Likewise on the point that the judgment should be set aside, for the reason that the reliability of the witness Curatolo lacks completeness (for not taking into consideration the data that contradicted the conclusion to which the Court came) and is vitiated by an incorrect application of normative parameters of reference. The precise and serious nature of the testimony has been rejected by the judgment without taking into account the correlation with other evidence, on a basis of conjecture (superimposition by the witness of the evening of October 31 with that of the 1 November) that it was not even placed in comparison with data that belied their conclusions.

(formatting mine for easier reading)



It almost makes me cry, that is the manifest illogicality of it. It's absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances that a witness as absurd as Curatolo could be considered reliable on the grounds of little more than he got two things right that anyone could get correct: he simply stated he was 'certain' it was the night before he saw the Polizia Scientifica going to the crime scene which anyone could say and he could recognize who the defendants were in a court room, which he ought to have been able to figure out being as this was the third murder trial Mignini had used him in.

Because he gets those two things right everything else, especially that he says it was Halloween and his entire 'memory' is associated with conditions that night definitely not present the correct night of the murder, they can then pick and choose what they like out of his testimony and consider it an incontestable fact and ignore the rest as they please, especially the part where he also said they were there continuously the whole time from ~9:30 until almost midnight which would actually give them an alibi for the murder.




It's not just his freedom, it becomes the defining characteristic of his life: a murderer. That never goes away until exoneration and that's probably impossible to achieve with some people regardless at this juncture.


The Supremes considered it highly significant that Toto went into court not just once but twice to tell his story, as if that made it twice as likely to be true. I loved this bit:

The Supremes said:
The method of analysis of the testimony, as detected by the petitioning Procurator General, is absolutely reprehensible, as manifest failure of the assumption of a thorough examination of the data and circumstances, so that the conclusion - taken that the witness was confused in indicating the two young students today accused were present in Grimana Square on the evening of October 31 and not November 1 - clashes with the acquired data that contrasts with the apodictic assumption, so as to manifest in all his evidence a foundation of debit of consistency and therefore manifest illogicality of the discourse of justification
 
I'm the same. I find it hard to understand how people can believe the complicated three person scenario, involving three people who barely knew each other and yet seem to have decided on a bizarre conspiracy of silence, against all personal best interests

The murder was horrific - and yet to believe there were three people involved, you would have to believe they were bound by some strange sense of honour or strength of character, which prevents them from turning on their co-conspirators to save themselves. They've all done prison time rather than blame it on the others. On one hand the PGP are calling Amanda a narcissistic sociopath - and yet if guilty, she has never turned on Raffaele, even when she was falsely told he was no longer giving her an alibi and she also spent four years in prison rather than blame it on Guede. It's hardly the action of a cunning sociopath.<snip>

I have been convinced for some time that most PGP no longer sincerely believe Amanda and Raffaele were involved -- they just think they do. Their movement may have started out based on beliefs in information propagated by the various prosecutors, but the ones who cling to at least some semblance of mental health can't ignore the fact that the prosecution's case has changed from trial to trial. They all know, consciously or subconsciously, that there is no imminent danger for anyone in close proximity to Amanda and Raffaele.

The ones who lead relatively normal lives (not the basement dwellers or real nuts, like grimbal) could not possibly go about their daily business actually believing two savage murderers are on the loose. They are all constantly laughing and joking with each other about the subject, for one thing. Their websites are just comfortable places to be, where they comment wryly and are among friends.
 
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I have been convinced for some time that most PGP no longer sincerely believe Amanda and Raffaele were involved -- they just think they do. Their movement may have started out based on beliefs in information propagated by the various prosecutors, but the ones who cling to at least some semblance of mental health can't ignore the fact that the prosecution's case has changed from trial to trial. They all know, consciously or subconsciously, that there is no imminent danger for anyone in close proximity to Amanda and Raffaele.

The ones who lead relatively normal lives (not the basement dwellers or real nuts, like grimbal) could not possibly go about their daily business actually believing two savage murderers are on the loose. They are all constantly laughing and joking with each other about the subject, for one thing. Their websites are just comfortable places to be, where they comment wryly and are among friends.


I'm sure there is a little of that Mary, but their minds will not allow them to think anything than they are guilty. I'd even bet if Rudy came out and made a statement to the effect that "I can't take it any more" I don't know what came over me that night. I broke into her house and she caught me there and I freaked out. I killed her. I'm sorry. I'm also sorry for the pain my silence and duplicity has caused everyone. Those two students had nothing to do with it."

They would still say that Rudy is just covering for them. That this is just another of his lies. You can't believe him. He's not credible.
 
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I have several theories about the lack of testing of the semen stain.

First theory: When police informed John Kercher of their/Mignini's initial theory that Meredith was murdered by a man she just met at the disco Holloween night and invited him into her home (bedroom) the next night for consensual physical activity, and it tuned into date-murder, John Kercher rejected it mightily. With that push-back from John Kercher, and realizing he is a connected journalist who could cause a lot of trouble for Perugia and the PLE, Mignini decided on a different tack - to shield Meredith's reputation and make her the innocent angelic victim. Part of protecting the dead woman's purity involves avoiding getting into the semen stain.

Second theory: Meredith's downstairs boyfriend admitted to the police that the stain is his, stemming from consensual sex. Therefore, there is nothing for the prosecution to gain in analyzing the stain or at least in revealing it. Concealing ths protects Meredith's reputation.

Third theory: Stefanoni, or her assistant to whom Stefanoni was recorded saying the schedule for tomorrow includes testing semen, DID test it. It points to Rudy, or to boyfriend Giacomo, and the prosecution gains nothing by disclosing this. In fact, concealing that it is semen helps paint the contrast between nice-girl Meredith and the slutty American.
.

I have pondered similar theories Strozzi, but why did the judges not demand the stain be tested? Are the judges also in on these cover ups, even Hellmann? Apparently the defense are not privy to the ruse.

Cody
.
 
This is the longest game of "Whack a Mole" ever played. Time and time again, the misinformation and lies are corrected, pointed out and then they move on to other misinformation and we whack that down, Occasionally new lies are made like Ted Thomson's last week. But then they just circle back and bring up the old lies.

I have been looking at different murder cases. . . . .Some to see if I can find anything similar but also curious.

Cassandra Lee Hailey and Richard Keith Call was a case of couple who disappeared on the Colonial Parkway in Virginia. It is presumed that they were murdered. Mr Call's father found the vehicle with the keys in the ignition, looked around, and then went to work (source: Dark Minds episode on the Colonial Parkway killer.) Father has never been the presumed killer.

People will do things that in retrospect are unusual.
 
He even wrote a letter to a news website in the spring of 2010, referring to "a horrible homicide of a splendid young girl, Meredith Kercher, by Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito."

This is the item which scares me. . . .It indicates that he is perfectly willing to blame others and ruining two people's lives is perfectly acceptable to me. It means he very well may try to do something similar once released.
 
NancyS

I have a couple of questions for you.

Q1 say someone presented themselves at A & E having been in a fight in which they had bitten their tongue so much that it bled. After cleaning them up, in what condition would you normally expect the tongue to be? Pretty much normal, swollen, painful etc (and if the last for how long?)

Q2 similar question but this time the person presents with a bloody nose. Would you normally expect to see any swelling or bruising or scratches, or just a normal-looking, undamaged nose.

I used the word 'normal' where highlighted because I am not asking what you would inevitably or invariably expect but just what most such cases would likely throw up.

TIA

Anglo
 
From that excellent article MichaelB linked to:

The mindless people – not stupid people as they do not all have low IQ’s as Dershowitz proves – who believe in the modern-day Perugian fairy tale have, I think, an extremely simple set of beliefs: first, no one would tell police, under any circumstances whatever, that they were present at a murder when they were, in fact, not; second, once you have what amounts to a confession, all other evidence may be interpreted from the standpoint of guilty until proven innocent. Indeed, Massei’s verdict overtly reverses the usual standard of justice.

Is it accurate to say that the pro-guilt side believes that since Amanda told police she was present at the murder, we must then assume she is guilty and interpret all evidence under the presumption of guilt until proven innocent?

It certainly seems like that is their default view point, as I have never seen a pro-guilt poster analyze individual pieces of evidence on a balance of probabilities (example: well, the DNA profile could be due to contamination, but you have to prove it since we're sure she is guilty.) It is always things like "you need to prove contamination", "you need to prove the police elicited a false confession", "you need to prove Amanda wasn't screwing Rudy for crack rock", etc etc etc.

In fact, I would bet this is the definition of "osmotic reasoning", if we wanted to formalize it.
 
From that excellent article MichaelB linked to:



Is it accurate to say that the pro-guilt side believes that since Amanda told police she was present at the murder, we must then assume she is guilty and interpret all evidence under the presumption of guilt until proven innocent?

It certainly seems like that is their default view point, as I have never seen a pro-guilt poster analyze individual pieces of evidence on a balance of probabilities (example: well, the DNA profile could be due to contamination, but you have to prove it since we're sure she is guilty.) It is always things like "you need to prove contamination", "you need to prove the police elicited a false confession", "you need to prove Amanda wasn't screwing Rudy for crack rock", etc etc etc.

In fact, I would bet this is the definition of "osmotic reasoning", if we wanted to formalize it.
I have said before the difference between the two sides is a disagreement about weight. They attach enormous weight to the 'confessions', the 'lies' and the 'odd behaviour'. There being no smoke without fire, these by themselves are enough to overcome all contrary indications. Every now and then this truth shows through - whether in Skeptical Bystander's judgment based on looking at a particularly telling picture of Amanda or Mach's breakthrough moment when he realised what a consummate actress she was.

OTOH science is dismissed as some kind of dirty trick which they address either with wilful ignorance or by attacking the credentials (sometimes in extremely personal and unpleasant terms) of any scientist whose opinion challenges their belief system - or both.
 
the deafening silence on the destruction of the clasp

What I'm saying is the behavior of the forensic techs, in mugging for the cameras, finding the clasp, picking it up, celebrating, putting it down again on the floor to get a second camera take of their glorious find - that all of that behavior suggests they were looking for the clasp specifically, and when they find it, they celebrate.

Why would they do that? Unless they know, "it will do". In the same way that the single knife collected from Raff's kitchen "will do". In the same way that had Amanda actually picked up a knife at the cottage on Nov 4th as the police tried to get her to do, that such a knife, "would also do".

SNIP

That's my theory anyway. Doesn't mean I'm right. But these folks are about as straight as a slinky, imo. They suppressed exculpatory profiles, they destroyed exculpatory computer drives, they allowed exculpatory CCTV cameras to be recorded over before they collected them. Everything they do is geared towards obtaining a conviction, even if they have to smudge the lines of propriety. These aren't isolated incidents, and we should, in all fairness, consider them, osmotically.:D

Please, tell me I'm wrong.
Carbonjam72,

The fact that the bra clasp was stored in a way that made its decay very likely is one of the more troubling aspects of the case (the PG commentariat has been very nearly silent on this point). Some time ago I viewed some of the footage of the collection of various pieces of evidence. They do a bit of playing to the camera for other things like Meredith's jacket, but not as much of a production as they make of finding the clasp. Raffaele's profile on the bra clasp was in the low template range. I grant that it is all very troubling.
 
Carbonjam72,

The fact that the bra clasp was stored in a way that made its decay very likely is one of the more troubling aspects of the case (the PG commentariat has been very nearly silent on this point). Some time ago I viewed some of the footage of the collection of various pieces of evidence. They do a bit of playing to the camera for other things like Meredith's jacket, but not as much of a production as they make of finding the clasp. Raffaele's profile on the bra clasp was in the low template range. I grant that it is all very troubling.

The video is very interesting. The 'production' consist of much more than just the picking up and dropping part. First, there is the rummaging through the stuff on the bed, then a retreat to the kitchen to view crime scene pics on the laptop (as if no one remembered the clasp was last seen on the floor) then they return and there is a studied search all around where the clasp actually is. It's looks to me like they are pretending it's hard to find, like kids. One guy looks behind the laundry basket in the corner. Of course, you would surely look there rather than under the mat that is on the floor where the clasp was last seen. And then, as you say, there is the eureka moment when they find it, somehow already knowing its tremendous significance.

How did the clasp get under the mat anyway? Somebody had to have picked up the mat and put it down again on top of the clasp. Having moved the clasp several feet across the room. Why would anybody do that? But then, we know they tossed crucial items of evidence around like morons. They didn't even cover that up so it's not really a stretch to imagine some dolt kicking the thing around on the floor (any substrate tests on that floor btw?) despite the floor being known to be a prime source of crime scene contamination.

Say, did the posties shake hands with Raf when they arrived? I don't think anybody ever asked that. Not that it's that important. The destruction of the clasp as evidence says it all.
 
I have said before the difference between the two sides is a disagreement about weight. They attach enormous weight to the 'confessions', the 'lies' and the 'odd behaviour'. There being no smoke without fire, these by themselves are enough to overcome all contrary indications. Every now and then this truth shows through - whether in Skeptical Bystander's judgment based on looking at a particularly telling picture of Amanda or Mach's breakthrough moment when he realised what a consummate actress she was.
OTOH science is dismissed as some kind of dirty trick which they address either with wilful ignorance or by attacking the credentials (sometimes in extremely personal and unpleasant terms) of any scientist whose opinion challenges their belief system - or both.

Perhaps all of us should say something about the "breakthrough" moment for us all.

Me, I thought they were guilty, mainly on the assumption that police do not arrest innocent people, prosecutors don't prosecute innocent people, and courts don't convict innocent people. Besides, I thought, DNA is DNA is DNA is DNA. How complicated can this be?

Then I read that the "DNA evidence is falling apart." That's when I turned to the font of all wisdom - the internet and these chat-threads.

First on the list was TJMK - you know, the one that condones death threats made against Amanda Knox. Instead of dealing with the disintegrating DNA evidence, back then all Fast Pete would say was, "well, there's all the other evidence". I blame him, then, for me looking for all this other phantom evidence.

The breakthrough moment, was trying to piece together what a clean-up would mean. And if there was no clean-up, then neither Knox nor Sollecito could have done this. A friend also looked at Kermit's old powerpoints, the one that Kermit claimed showed the impossibility of the climb in through Filomena's window - my friend said in non-ad hominem fashion, "whoever put that together is overthinking this. By the time one slide is done, a half-decent burglar is up and in."

(Then we heard Judge Nencini describe Rudy Guede as a professional burglar, not the clumsy, lust-filled oaf of Massei's court....)

But it was the reaction to my emerging biases.... I got banned from TJMK for expressing the point of view about the break-in. Banned. For expressing an opinion.

Then I read about the break-up of PMF, into .NET and .ORG. The sites dedicated to the memory of Meredtih Kercher were now fighting over who owned the keys to that, on the face of it, noble task. (Name ONE thing either has done for Meredtih, other than call Amanda and Raffaele names? Ok, ok, there are the translations.... mainly good ones, except they don't really know how to translate "osmosis" from the Italian, do they?)

As you remember, I remained a guilter on calunnia. I argued with innocentisti on IIP about this and stood my ground. Break-through moment on that was reading the English translation of Drew Griffin's CNN interview with Mignini, and seeing first hand what a manipulative liar he was/is.

I'm sorry. People get mad when Mignini is called out for what he is. So I had better clarify. He's clearly a disingenuous, satanic-fighting, manipulative liar.

I then read how Skeptical Bystander got converted to being a guilter. She was reacting to the claim that she'd once decided, "only by looking at a photo of Amanda and determining guilt from that."

Not true said, Skeptical. Not true. She then clarified saying that she'd seen photos side-by-each of Meredith and Amanda and got confused as to which one was which, assuming Meredith's was Amanda's. And she reported thinking to herself, "That's strange, it's the other one who looks like a cool blooded killer." That makes it much, much better! Someone then clarified to her which was which, and the guilter with a connection to Andrea Vogt in the courtroom was born.

Machiavelli still claims that his theatre training identified Knox as "an actress" when he spotted her in court the first time.

First impressions are never wrong I guess.

So what's your breakthrough moment?
 
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Oh yes, then there was going to the Wikipedia page on The Murder of Meredith Kercher. It was a mess.... confusing, and one really could not get a handle on the issues in the case at all.

THEN....... one discovered the unholy war behind the scenes for control over the information which appeared on the Wiki-page. A war like no other, which eventually required Jimmy Wales personal intervention.

THEN...... one discovered 35 pages of "talk-page", thirty-five, trente-cinq of conversation about ONE of the guilter editors.... BRMull. Thirty-five pages of back and forth about ONE guilter's contribution to the mess.

And it turned out he was a discredited California doctor, who'd strangled his own psychiatrist and was on leave as a result. All of that was a jaw-dropper......

..... which put the lie to an innocentisti PR campaign.... there was (and still is) an avalanche of guilt-PR promoted vigourously and at-length - facilitated by such luminaries as Harry Rag, etc.

Just how does one crank out 35 pages of "talk" on a Wiki-Talk-Page about ONE now banned editor?

That one was a breakthrough in understanding how guilt was being broadcast through these threads in some sort of organized fashion. I'm going to take a peek to see if those 35 pages are still there....
 
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Reading the Massei motivation and realising there was no evidence at all.

I share this.... it was all the "probablies". My notion after reading it was that the motivations report should have been written before the verdict as a way to coming to one.... because Massei seemed to be admitting that the evidence was thin/non-existent, except that they'd convicted the pair 90 days previous.....

.... if this was to come to a verdict, one would reasonably have expected Massei to conclude they were innocent at the end of it all.... surely, "not-guilty because of reasonable doubt." And that's Massei's view AFAIAC!
 
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