Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[carbonjam72]

Is that Rudy Guede or Jackie Gleason?

Not if you figure the assassin staged the scene to look like someone staged the scene to look like he did it.

I know that you know that I know, that I wouldn't stage a crime scene in my own style and therefore I think you wouldn't think I would stage the crime scene in my own style, and therefore I did stage the crime scene in my own style to throw you off my own trail!!

Is it happy hour yet?

 

[carbonjam72]

Rudy could have a problem...

Rudy can cause serious damage to Perugia's police leadership, prosecutors, and the local judges who heard aspects of the case if he tells the truth about what happened that night and how his attorney signalled him not to correct Mignini's scenario. For that reason, the police leadership, Mignini, Comodi, and others have an interest in Rudy being rehabilitated and psychological stable. He is in an education program. Rudy will be placed in a structured and supportive work and living situation when he is released. He will be monitored. He will be instructeon not to discuss the crime with anyone and not to talk to journalists.

If successful, his rehab in prison will change him so that he is no longer a threat to society.

Not to be too dark, but Curatolo died in jail. Rudy is a serious liability to Mignini and the Italian police - because of what he knows (that Knox and Sollecito are innocent), and because of what he may do (kill more people). Rudy is in a precarious spot, and could just...

 

[Desert Fox]

Besides the fact that he said he was there?

How about this from the PIP's favorite wiki

19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage, likely Kokomani. Time adjusted forward 10 minutes per the defense theory. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [16] 20.01 Kokomani cell phone pings off tower that services the cottage. [17]​

link
Now demand the same for other stuff like crime waves

Reasonably fair. . .Who is this Kokomani?
Unless there is physical evidence of him at the crime scene, he is "Not Guilty" however.

 

[acbytesla]

The rock was clearly thrown from the outside. It isn't as clear that anyone actually entered through the window. The story is better if you have Rudi running around town throwing rocks through second story () windows and pooping while there. If the exact same type of evidence was used against the kids you wouldn't buy it at all, meaning CT and Nina.

But we are not using it AGAINST the kids. And in reality we are not using it against Rudy either. There is no evidence presented really that the break in was staged. Yet this is evidence that Rudy had been probably been breaking into places all over town. Is it reasonable for a jury Grinder to consider this evidence for exculpatory purposes as opposed to using it for the purpose of convicting someone? Id' say so... What do you think? Do you think a jury should hear it and make their own call?

Rudi could have entered through the window. Rudi could have thrown the rock and waited and in the interim Meredith came home. And it is even slightly possible that he had gone to meet her as the police first suspected and fearing someone knew of the date felt the need for creating an alternative knowing his prints and DNA would most likely be found. It is clear that someone could easily have entered through the window as the CH. 5 show demonstrated.

While I think it might be possible that they had a date, there is nothing really evidence of this other than Rudy's own testimony.

We can go around and around on this forever. I think the evidence points more likely than not that Rudy burglarized the law office and maybe CT and Ms Diaz. In other words the preponderance of evidence points to that but certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Grinder]

Stil,

What a sad little meaningless list.

Can you explain what the police chief meant when he said that they questioned her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct? Btw, that report came out before any PR had been hired so they didn't plant it.

Would you explain why the ILE didn't take all of Patrick's knives and why they didn't seal his flat as well as the bar?

What did the ISC rule in terms of the statements made at 1:45 and 5:45?

What did her second note say?

When did she become a suspect? Why didn't she have an attorney that night?

Do you really consider a noise ticket trouble with the police? Do you also consider a parking ticket trouble with the police?

What exactly did Donnino say regarding imagining?

 

[acbytesla]

Besides the fact that he said he was there?

How about this from the PIP's favorite wiki

19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage, likely Kokomani. Time adjusted forward 10 minutes per the defense theory. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage. CCTV time stamp is 19:41. [16]

20.01 Kokomani cell phone pings off tower that services the cottage. [17]
​

link

Now demand the same for other stuff like crime waves

If you wouldn't accept the evidence of Rudy at CT or the law office, why would you jump to the conclusion that this is good enough evidence against Kokomani? "likely Kokomnani" says who? The wiki?? That antenna also services a pretty sizable area. Does it really mean anything at all?

 

[js202]

At the JREF, we have become accustomed to exploding myths and relying purely on documentation such as the compelling reasoning of Judges Nencini, Micheli, Matteini, and Massei, along with strong scientific support and unbiased judgement. The list above was compiled by one of the most vigorous on-line supporters of victims' rights and all sources are properly attributed.

This document might become a good start for those new to the case who still labour under the illusion that Amanda and Raffaele were not responsible for Meredith Kercher's death.

Funny. My sense is that the colossally brain-damaged, mean-spirited windbags who populate the various PMFs, collectively would have great difficulty exploding a child's water balloon.

And as for the "compelling" reasoning of Judge Nencini? You must be joking.

 

[Skind]

Funny. My sense is that the colossally brain-damaged, mean-spirited windbags who populate the various PMFs, collectively would have great difficulty exploding a child's water balloon.

And as for the "compelling" reasoning of Judge Nencini? You must be joking.

This is a grossly unfair statement, I know a number of brain damaged people, and few of them would have trouble spotting Stilicho's mistake of confusing "Guede had a formal criminal record on Day 0" with "Evidence uncovered subsequent to Day 0 is highly compatible with Guede participating in theft related activities on Day 0 or prior".

It's simply not fair to smear brain damaged people by using their good name to refer to people from the PMF's.

 

[js202]

This is a grossly unfair statement, I know a number of brain damaged people, and few of them would have trouble spotting Stilicho's mistake of confusing "Guede had a formal criminal record on Day 0" with "Evidence uncovered subsequent to Day 0 is highly compatible with Guede participating in theft related activities on Day 0 or prior".

It's simply not fair to smear brain damaged people by using their good name to refer to people from the PMF's.

You are so right. I withdraw my statement, with sincere apologies to the brain damaged community. They have difficulties which are genuine and earnest enough without my invidious comparisons.

 

[Grinder]

But we are not using it AGAINST the kids. And in reality we are not using it against Rudy either. There is no evidence presented really that the break in was staged. Yet this is evidence that Rudy had been probably been breaking into places all over town. Is it reasonable for a jury Grinder to consider this evidence for exculpatory purposes as opposed to using it for the purpose of convicting someone? Id' say so... What do you think? Do you think a jury should hear it and make their own call?

The same TYPE of evidence. For example, though not identical, the noise ticket also mentioned rocks in the street. I have no doubt that some of the idiots at the party had thrown some rocks BUT I wouldn't use that against Amanda because there is no evidence that she knew much less that she participated. Let's say that CT had said that his attacker was Raf and he recognized him from the newspaper pictures, you would totally debunk it.

I think rightly the PIP totally debunk Curatolo and Quintavalle and they should also debunk the Diaz and CT stories unless there is verification.

Prato either testified or had a statement read into the record. CT's statement was allowed. I don't think Diaz participated. Another reason I don't believe the Nina account.

So the judges were made aware of the "break-ins" even if one had no signs of such. The lawyers testified to their burglary and Rudi coming to see them. They were allowed to decide for themselves and that seems perfectly fine.

While I think it might be possible that they had a date, there is nothing really evidence of this other than Rudy's own testimony.

For those of us that understand circumstantial evidence in Italy the more possible connections the less gravity to that evidence. Maybe Anglo will explain it to you. The police thought there was no signs of forced sex and therefore thought she might have met the killer the night before.

We can go around and around on this forever. I think the evidence points more likely than not that Rudy burglarized the law office and maybe CT and Ms Diaz. In other words the preponderance of evidence points to that but certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt.

It isn't just the BARD standard. Why would Rudi go to the lawyers and tell them he hadn't robbed them but had acquired the items? Why didn't Diaz come forward to the same cub reporter that found all the other witnesses? Why didn't CT turn in Rudi when he identified him? Rudi had threatened him with a knife, stole money and credit cards, CT had reported it and now when the thief is known he leaves it with an 86 from a couple of bars? It makes no sense, but the judges did hear it.

 

[Grinder]

If you wouldn't accept the evidence of Rudy at CT or the law office, why would you jump to the conclusion that this is good enough evidence against Kokomani? "likely Kokomnani" says who? The wiki?? That antenna also services a pretty sizable area. Does it really mean anything at all?

Pathetic. This is the pro Amanda wiki and they were referring to actual evidence. They had his ping and his car and his statement. Do you think he lied about being in the area?

Do you have a phone ping for either of the other cases.

ETA - RISPOSTA – Sì, per quanto riguarda l’1 novembre il Kocumani
con l’utenza 3490918322 alle 17.11 si trova agganciato
ad una cella di Assisi, alle 18.15 sempre alla stessa
cella di Assisi, alle 20.01 si trova invece agganciato
alla cella della Vodafone di Via dell’Aquila Torre
dell’Acquedotto che come abbiamo detto fino adesso dà
copertura a Via della Pergola.

From the police report

 

[Bill Williams]

At the JREF, we have become accustomed to exploding myths and relying purely on documentation such as the compelling reasoning of Judges Nencini, Micheli, Matteini, and Massei, along with strong scientific support and unbiased judgement. The list above was compiled by one of the most vigorous on-line supporters of victims' rights and all sources are properly attributed.

This document might become a good start for those new to the case who still labour under the illusion that Amanda and Raffaele were not responsible for Meredith Kercher's death.

You mean compelling reasoning like that Rudy Guede was a "professional burglar" who would never have crapped in a toilet, unless he'd been invited in?

This was reasoning Nencini used to say that it was Amanda who'd invited him in, but Rudy's own story was that it was Meredith who invited him in.

Do you mean compelling reasoning by Nencini in reference to the definition of the word "amica" below?

​

I am almost positive that you're not talking about Mignini's own compelling reasoning, especially what he gave to this "Satanism and the law" conference in Italy....

​

 

[acbytesla]

Pathetic. This is the pro Amanda wiki and they were referring to actual evidence. They had his ping and his car and his statement. Do you think he lied about being in the area?

Do you have a phone ping for either of the other cases.

ETA - RISPOSTA – Sì, per quanto riguarda l’1 novembre il Kocumani
con l’utenza 3490918322 alle 17.11 si trova agganciato
ad una cella di Assisi, alle 18.15 sempre alla stessa
cella di Assisi, alle 20.01 si trova invece agganciato
alla cella della Vodafone di Via dell’Aquila Torre
dell’Acquedotto che come abbiamo detto fino adesso dà
copertura a Via della Pergola.

From the police report

What do you mean they had his car? Was it even identified as to the same make and model?

I know it is the pro wiki but the pro wiki also includes the story about CT and Ms Diaz. I'd agree that Koko might have left Rudy off that day. Note that Koko testified that he ran into Amanda that night at the cottage and she threw olives at him. He also said Amanda had a gap between her teeth. He was considered by the judges to be a liar. He then ran from town.

Look, I'm just playing a little Devils advocate and throwing back at you what you usually throw my way.

 

[Desert Fox]

Not to be too dark, but Curatolo died in jail. Rudy is a serious liability to Mignini and the Italian police - because of what he knows (that Knox and Sollecito are innocent), and because of what he may do (kill more people). Rudy is in a precarious spot, and could just...

If Rudy had an accident, I think that the odds of Italy getting Amanda goes from slim to none.

 

[Samson]

I don't see anything that a shot put shot anything like the video posted of the YT stunt. Here, here or here

To be fair he does have a piston motion that is unusual.

I concede, I had the wrong mental image, I was recalling my bad rhythm at layups, and don't watch the game. Nevertheless it was Raffele or Rudy, and I would have backed Rudy with his basketball training schedule.

 

[Grinder]

What do you mean they had his car? Was it even identified as to the same make and model?

I know it is the pro wiki but the pro wiki also includes the story about CT and Ms Diaz. I'd agree that Koko might have left Rudy off that day. Note that Koko testified that he ran into Amanda that night at the cottage and she threw olives at him. He also said Amanda had a gap between her teeth. He was considered by the judges to be a liar. He then ran from town.

Look, I'm just playing a little Devils advocate and throwing back at you what you usually throw my way.

Koko lied about the olives they were actually artichokes Of course he lied, especially if he was with Rudi. He was there and as you would say "you're the only one that doubts it"

I remember the Koko testimony and details from the time but just thought for DF that the PIP wiki would be an adequate source. This info includes the actual police report not some True Crime Novel. You were going to get more from Nina but alas nada.

Koko doesn't really benefit the PIP/FOA because it isn't needed for their theory so it has even more weight.

Give me the source for Diaz at the Wiki. Oops it's Nina.

 

[Grinder]

I concede, I had the wrong mental image, I was recalling my bad rhythm at layups, and don't watch the game. Nevertheless it was Raffele or Rudy, and I would have backed Rudy with his basketball training schedule.

Of course you are right that Rudi would have had an easier time with his B-Ball training. I take it that I can stop throwing this 10 lb rock at Anglo's window.

 

[Strozzi]

The window is on the same floor as the parking lot. But since the cottage is on a side of the hill the bottom floor where Rudy probably started his climb is about thirteen feet below the window. If Rudy threw the rock from below he would have had to propel the rock upwards which I think could be done but which would be difficult for some people. On the other hand from the parking lot all you have to do is throw it from the same level. It would probably still travel about 15 feet but there is no need to throw it up against gravity.

If you were going to throw a rock through the window, you would want to time it right. You would throw it a moment after looking around tha last time to see if you spot anyone around. If you are down at low ground/basement level and the carpark is above you, you cannot see if anyone or any vehicle is passing nearby.

You would probably feel safer making the throw from the carpark, on the same plane with the window and the road. The car park is fairly well obscured from the road by vegetation and trees, but you would still want to do it from there because you could see somewhat any movement around the garage or along the road.

If detected at the carpark, you could jump down to the lower level and escape in the dark downhill. But if you are already low when you throw the rock, you cannot immediately see movement above along the road.

 

[Bill Williams]

There are two kinds of people in this world.

Those who think that Judge Nencini had a well reasoned report to convict Sollecito and Knox, and then the rest of us.

See: a-dumb-ass-case/

All along Amanda Knox and her supporters have suffered from the touching but ultimately debilitating belief that if the facts along with logic, science, technology and common sense were on the side of the defense, the defense should then prevail. We know differently now. We know that the case is not about evidence or a search for the truth–if, indeed, it ever was about such things. It is about a will to power. It is about protecting the reputation of powerful institutions and persons. It is about a young person having to be guilty because important people in Italy find it preferable to condemn the innocent than admit to grave, foolish errors.

 

[acbytesla]

Koko lied about the olives they were actually artichokes Of course he lied, especially if he was with Rudi. He was there and as you would say "you're the only one that doubts it"

I remember the Koko testimony and details from the time but just thought for DF that the PIP wiki would be an adequate source. This info includes the actual police report not some True Crime Novel. You were going to get more from Nina but alas nada.

Koko doesn't really benefit the PIP/FOA because it isn't needed for their theory so it has even more weight.

Give me the source for Diaz at the Wiki. Oops it's Nina.

I have no idea about Koko. I do think he might have dropped off Rudy that night and maybe he did more. Koko said he was there, that is true and yes his cell phone pinged off a tower that was certainly possible for the cottage. Although it didn't ping off the most popular tower for the cottage.

But Koko went so far as to make himself totally not credible. I'm just asking if they actually identified his car. I"m not trying to make a big thing about it other than to say, you seem to have different levels of evidence requirement. The police believed at first because he was testifying against Amanda...We've noticed that they also believe Nara, Curatolo and Quintavalle.

My point isn't to piss you off Grinder. It's to look at this with as critical eye as possible.