Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Yes because the phones were unreachable. Filomena also tried calling.

Try reading a few of these for answers. http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/meredith-kercher-transcripts/

The IIP wiki only has a google translation of Filomena but she talks about the phone calls around page 28-29.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...anelli-Battistelli-vs.-Altieri-Altieri-vs.pdf

No sensible person, legitimately concerrned about a friend's life, would stop calling their phones, text their friend's phones, or leave a message.

You can spin this how you like. Mabye Amanda was so panicked she didn't think of calling Meredith again. But that's a pretty unusual scenario.
 
Really? Their alibi (as convoluted as it has come together), is that they spent the night together in an apartment. It should be easy to corroborte. But as they told it, they can't agree on a single timeline after Jovona. They ate fish. They watched a movie. A leak happened. Ears got washed in a loving shower. Neither can clearly remember if they made love. And this was right in the immediate aftermath of what happend, not years later so they could pretend to forget.

Why do they even need an alibi? You started posting today saying that you were unsure and only had a few queries.... now you're challenging their "alibi".

Why do they need one?

Compared with their remembrances of the evening of Nov 1, 2007, can you assign relative weight to a Judge who convicted them saying that women have Y-genetic material?

Nencini thinks they need an alibi because of that!
 
So in other words, Amanda made two calls to Meredith at 12:07, for 3 and 4 seconds each, and then made no other calls to the phones subsequently, and no texts or voice mails, despite the fact she was "pounding" on the door, "screaming" her name, trying to look into her window, alerting the neighbors, calling the police finally, and terrified something had happened to her. OK.

If I read it correctly the chart indicates a 16 sec call to the English phone, a call to the Italian phone for 3 seconds that went to VM and then another 4 second call to the English phone.

Why do you think that Amanda didn't realize that, knowing that she had killed Meredith, needed to be concerned about her and should leave a concerned message. Unless you believe there was a massive cleanup they had plenty of time to plan their actions. You seriously believe that they couldn't have done a better job? Exactly how many calls and for what length with what messages would have been acceptable.

What concession do we get for the Filomena lease concern cite?

Clearly these concerns aren't direct evidence but really they aren't evidence at all. Just as motive is considered circumstantial so is the stuff you've been bring up, but you don't believe that because there is no known motive that makes her innocent or do you?

The british girls have dinner from 5:30 to 6:30. They don't list out the evenings' activities by the minute or precisely. What do you make of that? Why didn't the girls text each other when safely in their place? That seems really weird, doesn't it? I mean girls alone, they check in with each other. This is very very weird...Sophie went home alone...hmmmmmm
 
No sensible person, legitimately concerrned about a friend's life, would stop calling their phones, text their friend's phones, or leave a message.

You can spin this how you like. Mabye Amanda was so panicked she didn't think of calling Meredith again. But that's a pretty unusual scenario.

How many times did Filomena call Meredith's phones? Remember, it was Amanda who was drawing atention to the cottage, even inviting the Postal Police to come in and have a look. The Postal Police were so unconcerned that they refused to break down the door.

Also, no sensible person legitimately concerned about a murder case, would say that women had Y-genetic material, in condemning two innocents. Maybe Nencini was so panicked he didn't think that genetics counted in providing justice for Meredith Kercher.
 
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No sensible person, legitimately concerrned about a friend's life, would stop calling their phones, text their friend's phones, or leave a message.

You can spin this how you like. Mabye Amanda was so panicked she didn't think of calling Meredith again. But that's a pretty unusual scenario.

Hey, when the PP arrived and saw everything AND had the phones they immediately broke down the door to her room. True or false.

Btw, what good does it do to call a phone of a person that you think is dead or hostage? Do you think she is going to answer either way? I think you would feel better about your friend being murdered if you called a bunch of times and you can't understand why all people wouldn't be worried that they didn't look concerned enough.
 
Bill I don't understand why you keep repeating the Y-genetic material stuff.

Please link to where Nencini says this as I'd like to understand why it is so significant.
 
No sensible person, legitimately concerrned about a friend's life, would stop calling their phones, text their friend's phones, or leave a message.

You can spin this how you like. Mabye Amanda was so panicked she didn't think of calling Meredith again. But that's a pretty unusual scenario.

Do you really think that they should have been concerned about their friend's life at this point? Seriously? At this point, I would imagine that there is some minor concern, You see, you have the benefit of hindsight. You know that Meredith is dead behind that door. But my guess is that if you had actually been in the same position as Amanda, you wouldn't have called them over and over and over and over again. Amanda called Meredith twice and a within a half hour they had all gathered at the cottage and the police were there.

You are exaggerating in your mind how important this is. People can't have this all ways. Amanda and Meredith were growing closer...but my guess is that they didn't feel they knew each other that well at this point. My guess is that Amanda was going back in forth in her mind over where Meredith was and what she should be doing. Odds are in her mind, that Meredith was at her British friends place or she met a guy.

This isn't proof of anything. It's more behavior analysis that is just as likely to be wrong as anything else.
 
Really? Their alibi (as convoluted as it has come together), is that they spent the night together in an apartment. It should be easy to corroborte. But as they told it, they can't agree on a single timeline after Jovona. They ate fish. They watched a movie. A leak happened. Ears got washed in a loving shower. Neither can clearly remember if they made love. And this was right in the immediate aftermath of what happend, not years later so they could pretend to forget.


You forgot the weed. See they forgot minute by minute details because they were smoking, sleeping, whatever. The police lied and claimed RS changed the alibi. That was untrue. A rather simple minded police trick on a not too street wise kid. "Well how do you know if she was there if you were sleeping?" My answer would have been because I am a light sleeper...duh. But RS either being a smart alex or just stupid said I cant know or something like that. And so now you get to bather on about alibi going on for 7 years now.

Not hard for an intelligent person to see what the police did here...but I understand that some of you still struggle. Meanwhile I agree that the defense did nothing to address this non changing ever changing alibi.

Same exact alibi as Filomena BTW...forget the birthday party...it didn't go on all night.

Your arguments are weak rehashes based on police corruption....the same Monica was arrested for tampering with evidence against her ex...funny huh?

Anything factual that indicates involvement with the murder? You know...at 8:40 Popvic saw them and then??? What? They went and stood in the park from 9:27 until midnight? Well sure they killed MK after 8:40 and b4 9:27 right? Good make it work.

So far you are the typical guilter echo chamber repeater...what next the luminol footprints right?
 
Bill I don't understand why you keep repeating the Y-genetic material stuff.

Please link to where Nencini says this as I'd like to understand why it is so significant.

Luca Cheli provides this with his English language summary of the Nencini report, currently not out in English.

Judge Massei talks about one major "DNA donor" to the braclasp, and up to 4 minor donors. Conti-Vecchiotti confirms these other donors, and Judge Nencini concedes they are there.

The major donor is Meredith. Of the minor donors, one is identified by Stefanoni as belonging to Raffaele, a low copy number trace of a Y-haplotype. Rudy s rukled out, and in truth Raffaele only belongs to a rather large group of men in Italy who share the characteristics of the trace found.

There are three other unidentified Y-haplotypes on the clasp acc. to C-C, and Nencini concedes this by speculating about the identities of these three others, so as to avoid having to admit contamination.

This suggests to many "contamination". Yet Nencini says two things to rule out contamination. You'll have to read Luca Cheli for the explanation - please let this suffice for now.

Nencini speculates that one of the other three is Meredtih's boyfriend, because as Nencini says Meredith is enjoying a healthy sex-life with him. Nencini says this not because of testing, he's just assuming. Please note that none of the other three samples are identified either, this is just all speculation on Nencini's part.

But the other two? Nencini says that the two remaining Y-haplotypes must belong to Meredith's girlfriends, because he is commited to offering an innocent reason for them being there - because he is committed to ruling out contamination.

I will leave it to you to surmise the problem with Nencini's efforts.

So far, none of the guilters are talking about that. Yet there it is, acc. to Luca Cheli, in black and white.


Cheli's translation of the Nencini report on page 243 is in italics.

“But the real matter important to the trial is not constituted by the presence of more [other] contributors in the mixed DNA trace extracted from the bra clasp donned by Meredith Kercher the evening she was killed, but by the presence of Raffaele Sollecito’s DNA.
And Indeed Meredith Kercher (…) was a very ordinary girl, who had recently begun a romantic affair with one of the boys living downstairs (…) This can hence make believable that on the bra clasp a trace could have been also left by the girl’s boyfriend; as it is reasonable to believe that some DNA could have been deposited by some female friend [amica] of the girl who touched the clasp”. (page 243)


Here we have a technical problem: Vecchiotti (deemed reliable by Nencini on this point on page 242) stated that there were at least three or four contributors besides Sollecito to the Y-haplotype profile and women cannot contribute to that profile, lacking the Y chromosome.

Hence Nencini fails to explain the presence of at least two more male contributors besides Sollecito and eventually Silenzi (Kercher’s boyfriend) and the presence of those other contributors is generally considered the best proof that the bra clasp was contaminated during the 46 days it was left on the floor at the cottage.​

Guilters do not even try to quote Nencini on this point.
 
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Bill I don't understand why you keep repeating the Y-genetic material stuff.

Please link to where Nencini says this as I'd like to understand why it is so significant.

You are joking right?

Girls have many things...but they do not have the y chromosome...thus it is sort of insane to claim anything about female y haplo since...."Only males have Y-DNA so only males can be tested"

Bill is simply mocking the idiocy of Nencini ...I am actually concerned that no media or science media has reported any of this yet. That supertanker must be on the rocks...oh wait that is an Italian cruise ship...:-) Still...this is simply one more example of the Italians making up facts that put innocent peoples lives into jeopardy of being wrongly convicted based on idiocy.

Sure lets talk about the Big Foot girls with y type...;-) search it out.
 
No, the difference is I consider circumstantial evidence to be worthy evidence, and others like you apparently don't. Circumstantially, neither AK nor RS can agree on a single, coherent timeline in which they allegedly spent a night at home. When did the leak happen? Why did they need a mop the next day for that leak? When was dinner eaten? Why don't either mention watching Naruto? Why can't either remember if they made love? Only much later does Amanda "remember" taking a romantic shower that RS never talks about to my knowledge. And after the fact, why did AK see blood on RS hands from fish? Why did RS imagine he pricked Meredith's finger?

The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.

:D I thought you weren't making a point about guilt but just being genuinely interested in the reply? Whatever, your questions seem perfectly reasonable to me. They might lead you to form the conclusion that she was flighty, heartless, mercenary, illogical, prone to exaggeration etc but also naïve, artless, mercurial and other benign things often associated with pretty maids. Nothing wrong with circumstantial evidence but your last sentence makes more sense, or at least as much, if you delete 'innocent' and write 'guilty' instead.

Yours

The brilliant anglo :p
 
The mistake over the y haplo is highly significant. It relates to a key piece of evidence which, if anything, is an understatement. It can be used to show not only that the judges were casual about the details of the case but that their carelessness led them to misconstrue evidence and fail to consider defence arguments properly. It is a key point that the bra clasp putatively had other male profiles on it besides Raf's, pointing to contamination. The ISC is going to have to persuade itself that this and other errors didn't make any difference. Actually, per RandyN, I am cynical enough to think they are capable of that and much more but if a guilty verdict is to be the final outcome in Italy then the more egregious the blunders the better.
 
So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?
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Hmmm, let me think, how did I react the last time my roommate was murdered?

I can't seem to remember. Oh wait, that's because I have never had a roommate murdered.

No problem, I'll ask my family and friends. Oh wait, they have never had a roommate murdered either.

Sorry Griffin, can't help you out on that one. How did you and your friends react the last time you had a roommate murdered?
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Really? Their alibi (as convoluted as it has come together), is that they spent the night together in an apartment. It should be easy to corroborte. But as they told it, they can't agree on a single timeline after Jovona. They ate fish. They watched a movie. A leak happened. Ears got washed in a loving shower. Neither can clearly remember if they made love. And this was right in the immediate aftermath of what happend, not years later so they could pretend to forget.

The problem with the behavioural issues is they are open to interpretation favouring innocence or guilt. Personally I try and imagine myself in this position. As has been said memory is much poorer than most people believe. I think the uncertainties is what I would expect if innocent. I think that if guilty more phone calls and messages would be made. Alternatively none. Just gone away for a long romantic weekend. The very uncertain response is most convincing to me. Phoning Filomena but being reluctant to phone the police. Trying to open MK's door but being afraid to smash it down.

I appreciate others interpret it differently. The fact that someone interprets behaviour one way and someone a different way means for me this is about as reliable a tossing a coin.

At that time using a UK phone in Italy as Meredith did incurred fairly high costs for accessing voice mail, and texts are not cheap. I assume that costs may have been relatively high for AK to send texts etc. Students get very focused on money. It comes of being on a fixed income.

Why ring a phone if you are able to knock on the door? If the person is not going to answer a knock on the door they are hardly going to answer the phone?

I don't know what AK thought. What I do know is people rarely behave in a logical manner and explanations are post hoc. The evidence is that most of our actions are sub conscious, there is good experimental evidence that people act then consciously rationalise their actions. It is inappropriate to impose some retrospective expectation of logicality on behaviour that should not be expected to meet that standard.
 
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Hmmm, let me think, how did I react the last time my roommate was murdered?

I can't seem to remember. Oh wait, that's because I have never had a roommate murdered.

No problem, I'll ask my family and friends. Oh wait, they have never had a roommate murdered either.

Sorry Griffin, can't help you out on that one. How did you and your friends react the last time you had a roommate murdered?
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I just don't get Griffin. When I was 20 to 25 years old, I was concerned about every penny. Putting things in perspective would be difficult. Of course Amanda is concerned about her roommate that was killed, but she is also concerned about everything else including the rent, her clothes, finishing her schoolwork. Does she go back to the US? Or to Germany? How long should he stay at Raffaele's. While she like Raffaele, I'm not sure she thought she was in love with him. I bet her mind was going a mile a minute thinking about it all.

So she wondered about her finances? I would think that would be natural. But obviously Griffin is reading something into anything and everything.
 
So in other words, Amanda made two calls to Meredith at 12:07, for 3 and 4 seconds each, and then made no other calls to the phones subsequently, and no texts or voice mails, despite the fact she was "pounding" on the door, "screaming" her name, trying to look into her window, alerting the neighbors, calling the police finally, and terrified something had happened to her. OK.


I would agree with other respondents to your posts, in that I think you're using faulty ex post facto reasoning to ascribe guilt to Knox's actions in calling Meredith's phones that morning.

Aside from the fact that Knox had no reason to believe that Meredith had come to harm (although it appears that her concern grew as the situation developed), one also has to understand the actual mechanics of these phone calls. Firstly, the timings listed are post-connection timings. In other words, they do not include any time during which the phone was ringing.

Secondly (and a point that many people still don't seem to know/understand) is that on the morning of 2nd November Meredith's UK phone was switched on and connected to the network, while her Italian phone was switched off. Therefore, when Knox was calling Meredith's UK phone, she was hearing a number of ringtones (and Meredith's phone would have been sounding a ring tone - which is how and why it was eventually discovered) until the phone kicked in automatically to voicemail. However, when Knox was calling Meredith's Italian phone, it was diverting straight to voicemail since it was switched off.

Therefore, when the records talk (for example) of a "3 second" call to Meredith's Italian phone, this actually means that the phone kicked automatically straight through to the voicemail message. Obviously it would only take a second or two for any caller (Knox in this case) to realise that the phone was either switched off or out of signal range, and to hang up accordingly. Any subsequent calls would naturally have been similarly short, for the same reason.

And regarding Meredith's UK phone, I also seem to remember that Knox talked about the phone ringing for a long time, then kicking in to a message saying that the person was not available (rather than a voicemail message). If so, then a natural and understandable pattern for Knox calling this phone would be as follows: on the first attempt, Knox let the phone ring and ring (for, say, 20 seconds), then hears a 5-second message. This call would, remember, show up as a 5-second call - not a 25-second call. Then Knox tried again, once more letting the phone ring and ring, and once again finally getting the automatic message. Again, this would register as a short call. After that, Knox tried several more times, but this time she let the phone ring for several seconds, but hung up before the message kicked in. These calls would not have shown up at all in the billing records, but would have indicated a proper intent by Knox to reach Meredith on her UK phone.

Putting it all together, the records suggest that Knox made several genuine attempts to reach Meredith on her two mobile phones. The short durations of the calls are only related to the connection times (in this case, the connection to the Italian voicemail message in the case of the Italian phone, and the automatic "not available" message in the case of the UK phone). The times do not reflect the amount of time that the phone was ringing (applicable in the case of the UK phone which was switched on and connected to the network, but not in the case of the Italian phone which was switched off).
 
So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?

From working in a hospital I've met numerous relatives of dying patients who are worrying about getting parking fines. Most funerals involve people getting stressed about money and practical issues. Amanda had been left homeless in a foreign country, of course she was going to worry about money

As for the phone calls, I don't think that at the time Amanda had any concern that Meredith had been killed, it was all just a little strange - therefore there wasn't any major sustained effort to contact her at all costs. She probably felt a bit silly about her lack of panic once she actually found out that Meredith was dead and exaggerated her concern when writing to her friends. It's human nature to embellish when retelling a story to friends, especially a story this dramatic. Trying to find minor differences in what Amanda later said to her friends and what she did is no indication of guilt, it's just how memory works
 
No, the difference is I consider circumstantial evidence to be worthy evidence, and others like you apparently don't. Circumstantially, neither AK nor RS can agree on a single, coherent timeline in which they allegedly spent a night at home. When did the leak happen? Why did they need a mop the next day for that leak? When was dinner eaten? Why don't either mention watching Naruto? Why can't either remember if they made love? Only much later does Amanda "remember" taking a romantic shower that RS never talks about to my knowledge. And after the fact, why did AK see blood on RS hands from fish? Why did RS imagine he pricked Meredith's finger?

The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.



It appears that you don't have a proper understanding of what constitutes circumstantial evidence. In this case, for example, everything (apart from Knox's alleged "confession/accusation" statement) is circumstantial evidence. The DNA evidence, the blood evidence, the witness evidence, the autopsy evidence, the telephone evidence, the computer evidence: these are all circumstantial evidence.

And furthermore, in your discussion of the phone calls, you are actually not evaluating the evidence per se: you're discussing possible inferences drawn from that evidence. You are taking the evidence (the times and durations (connected durations, remember) of the phone calls, and you are attaching an inference to that evidence.

The question therefore becomes this: how reasonable is your inference, and how reasonable are alternative inferences? In this particular area, I would argue that while your inference has some validity, there are other inferences that are at least equally possible and valid - chiefly the inference that this pattern of phone calls is wholly consistent with an innocent Knox making genuine efforts to reach Meredith by phone. I would therefore argue that this phone call evidence is at best (from the prosecution's perspective) extremely weak circumstantial evidence pointing towards Knox's guilt.
 
I would agree with other respondents to your posts, in that I think you're using faulty ex post facto reasoning to ascribe guilt to Knox's actions in calling Meredith's phones that morning.

Aside from the fact that Knox had no reason to believe that Meredith had come to harm (although it appears that her concern grew as the situation developed), one also has to understand the actual mechanics of these phone calls. Firstly, the timings listed are post-connection timings. In other words, they do not include any time during which the phone was ringing.

Secondly (and a point that many people still don't seem to know/understand) is that on the morning of 2nd November Meredith's UK phone was switched on and connected to the network, while her Italian phone was switched off. Therefore, when Knox was calling Meredith's UK phone, she was hearing a number of ringtones (and Meredith's phone would have been sounding a ring tone - which is how and why it was eventually discovered) until the phone kicked in automatically to voicemail. However, when Knox was calling Meredith's Italian phone, it was diverting straight to voicemail since it was switched off.

Therefore, when the records talk (for example) of a "3 second" call to Meredith's Italian phone, this actually means that the phone kicked automatically straight through to the voicemail message. Obviously it would only take a second or two for any caller (Knox in this case) to realise that the phone was either switched off or out of signal range, and to hang up accordingly. Any subsequent calls would naturally have been similarly short, for the same reason.

And regarding Meredith's UK phone, I also seem to remember that Knox talked about the phone ringing for a long time, then kicking in to a message saying that the person was not available (rather than a voicemail message). If so, then a natural and understandable pattern for Knox calling this phone would be as follows: on the first attempt, Knox let the phone ring and ring (for, say, 20 seconds), then hears a 5-second message. This call would, remember, show up as a 5-second call - not a 25-second call. Then Knox tried again, once more letting the phone ring and ring, and once again finally getting the automatic message. Again, this would register as a short call. After that, Knox tried several more times, but this time she let the phone ring for several seconds, but hung up before the message kicked in. These calls would not have shown up at all in the billing records, but would have indicated a proper intent by Knox to reach Meredith on her UK phone.

Putting it all together, the records suggest that Knox made several genuine attempts to reach Meredith on her two mobile phones. The short durations of the calls are only related to the connection times (in this case, the connection to the Italian voicemail message in the case of the Italian phone, and the automatic "not available" message in the case of the UK phone). The times do not reflect the amount of time that the phone was ringing (applicable in the case of the UK phone which was switched on and connected to the network, but not in the case of the Italian phone which was switched off).

Don't believe LJ. Do the experiment yourself! Ring a friend in the same room mobile to mobile. Note the difference between when you hear a ring tone and when the phone rings. Note when it goes to voicemail. Get them to switch the phone off, note the difference. Repeat but stop the call before connecting to voicemail. Check your itemised bill. The phone rings longer for the caller than the recipient. Only the connection is itemised, not the ringing, if you cut off before going to voice mail no call logged.
 
The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.

Actually, you probably could not. Human memory is not like a tape recorder.
It is this lossy thing where you are always recreating your memories, throwing stuff together and mixing things up.

Did a study where they asked people what they were doing on September 11 when the plane hits. A little while later, months I think, they asked and they often did not match.
 
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