Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Another statement I find peculiar:

"Stefano’s room however, well, his bed was stripped of linens, which was odd, and the comforter he used was shoved up at the top of his bed, with blood on it. I obviously told then that the blood was defiantly out of normal and also that he usually has his bed made."

Why would AK know his bed being "stripped of linens" was "odd", or that his "bed was usually made"? I wouldn't presume to know the habits of anyone I knew for less than a month, and didnt' actually live with. It was also a holiday.

In the absence of any incriminating evidence against Amanda or Raffaele, why is this line on inquiry even interesting?

Are you not more bothered that a sitting judge in Italy thinks women have Y-genetic material? And that he uses that as a basis for convicting people?

 

[Grinder]

In the absence of any incriminating evidence against Amanda or Raffaele, why is this line on inquiry even interesting?

Are you not more bothered that a sitting judge in Italy thinks women have Y-genetic material? And that he uses that as a basis for convicting people?

Bill could you link the part of the Nonsecini report that uses the Y as a basis for convicting?

 

[Samson]

Also, has anyone ever commented on this statement:

"...we are going to talk to the agency that we used to find our house and obviously request to move out. It kind of sucks that we have to pay the next months rent, but the owner has protection within the contract."

It looks as though she is being sensible about money, and finding a home. She's also pretty. She will be a good catch for some lucky man.

 

[griffinmill]

Grinder:

I can't do the multi quote thing, so I'll respond numerically.

1. I already stated that my question is not intended to prove guilt.

2. Going to Gubbio is not logical after Amanda claims to have found blood in the bathroom which she finds "strange" and makes her "uncomfortable" before she leaves. By the time she relates those facts to RS, he persuades her to call Filomena and Meredith, which makes the Gubbio vacation an absurdity.

3. I don't know why you argue this point: It makes more sense for an innocent person to call several times to a phone of a friend they are concerned about than to call once, briefly, while allegedly panicked, shouting, and trying to break down a door. The 'scenario' you purport of a guilty person doing everyting the 'smart' way doesn't matter. She didn't do the thing that most people would have done which, in a state of panic in her own words, was call the phones, text the phones, or leave messages.

4. Again, my question is where Amanda has explained this. Apparently, there is no explanation. What did Amanda say about this?

 

[acbytesla]

The point is Griffin, is your questions epitomizes the difference between you and me, or the PGP and the PIP.

Everything that leads you to believe in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt seems to be about behavior and other questions that can be read a dozen different ways. I KNOW I can't tell if someone's behavior is guilty, or quirky or neither. And you would think I can read people since I've spent more than twenty years in sales. But for every time I thought my prospect was going to buy my product and didn't there were times when I thought they weren't and they did.

Maybe there were moments that Amanda may have acted strange to you, but does that mean that you understood what was going on her mind? Not likely. People are different. For the life of me, I can't understand whey anyone would get a tattoo or a piercing in some odd place. And while that may be strange to me, it is not strange to a lot of people.

I'm notorious for laughing at the wrong moment. It's the one thing I think I have in common with Amanda given what some people say. Strange doesn't make someone guilty. Cold, doesn't make someone guilty. Laughing or crying at an unusual moment doesn't make someone guilty.

What is appropriate to one person is common place to another.

I have ignored most of that nonsense because I know that I can't read behavior well enough to send someone to prison because of my intuition. Instead, I focus on the evidence and the people. I don't think the opinion of the police that the burglary was staged could possibly be a reliable opinion. And given the pattern of burglaries that seems evident that Rudy probably committed and his involvement in this crime, I certainly can't accept their opinion without some very credible physical evidence supporting it. And the prosecution never offered anything to really back this up.

I can't believe a junky who came forward 6 months later or a shopkeeper who also came forward a lot later and who contradicts his original statements to detectives and the employees that work in his store.

I also see no reason that Amanda or Raffaele, two people without motives or any pattern of psychological problems would commit this crime.

If there was real solid evidence that they did this crime, I would not support them, I'd be condemning them. But I can't and won't come to a conclusion of guilt based on behavior that can be read many ways.

My questions you Griffin? Is do you believe that guilt needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? And do you think your ability to "read behavior" qualifies you to condemn someone to prison when the physical evidence is this marginal?

 

[RandyN]

Very astute observation, Cody. Of course this would require an independent authority to obtain data from the police station's on-site recording system or off-site backup system, and then analyze it.

That will never be ordered to be done, not by an Italian judge. The judges in this case have failed to cause Dr. Stefanoni to actually produce all lab data results. They have failed to order examination of the possible semen stain on the pillow case located under the hips of a murdered woman sprawled on the floor with her legs spread open and Rudy's skin-cell DNA in her vagina. They have failed to order Stefanoni to disclose the identities (perhaps police officers?) of the several other males whose DNA is on the metal hook of the victim's bra clasp.

I think defense attorneys should file a demand for all the above with the Italian Supreme Court so the world can see the Italian Supreme Court reject it.

Exactly...perfect idea.

But see the defense could have been protesting issues since day one. They are either not competent or skilled enough to handle what should have been elementary defense.

I think during the first trial the defense was simply dogging it to pad their incomes. But in the end it appears that not one one of them was qualified to handle a murder case.

Italy may have a contorted corrupt system but there are defense lawyers who work quite successfully inside of it and they are not afraid to call the cops corrupt and they not only get away with that but they get the cops arrested and even the head of the departments...if someone demands it, I will look up this story...there is a lawyer who rained hell down on a whole Italian police department and got his client off. The guy is one of the richest lawyers in Italy...so perhaps his fees were out of reach...but after 7 years I cant imagine these unqualified lawyers are much cheaper in the end. IIRC Frank was the original source of this lawyers story. Randy seems to have the search of Franks stuff down pat...I cant find anything.

DO you recall Franks story about the million dollar lawyer Randy? It was in the latter part of Shock...maybe even after it was closed down.

 

[griffinmill]

It looks as though she is being sensible about money, and finding a home. She's also pretty. She will be a good catch for some lucky man.

So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?

 

[acbytesla]

So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?

Why not Griffin? It is a practical issue for a college student. And Amanda wasn't the only one thinking that way. Filomena and Laura were too.

 

[griffinmill]

The point is Griffin, is your questions epitomizes the difference between you and me, or the PGP and the PIP.

Everything that leads you to believe in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt seems to be about behavior and other questions that can be read a dozen different ways. I KNOW I can't tell if someone's behavior is guilty, or quirky or neither. And you would think I can read people since I've spent more than twenty years in sales. But for every time I thought my prospect was going to buy my product and didn't there were times when I thought they weren't and they did.

Maybe there were moments that Amanda may have acted strange to you, but does that mean that you understood what was going on her mind? Not likely. People are different. For the life of me, I can't understand whey anyone would get a tattoo or a piercing in some odd place. And while that may be strange to me, it is not strange to a lot of people.

I'm notorious for laughing at the wrong moment. It's the one think I think I have in common with Amanda given what some people say. Strange doesn't make someone guilty. Cold, doesn't make someone guilty. Laughing or crying at an unusual moment doesn't make someone guilty.

What is appropriate to one person is common place to another.

I have ignored most of that nonsense because I know that I can't read behavior well enough to send someone to prison because of my intuition. Instead, I focus on the evidence and the people. I don't think the opinion of the police that the burglary was staged could possibly be a reliable opinion. And given the pattern of burglaries that seems evident that Rudy probably committed and his involvement in this crime, I certainly can't accept their opinion without some very credible physical evidence supporting it. And the prosecution never offered anything to really back this up.

I can't believe a junky who came forward 6 months later or a shopkeeper who also came forward a lot later and who contradicts his original statements to detectives and the employees that work in his store.

I also see no reason that Amanda or Raffaele, two people without motives or any pattern of psychological problems would commit this crime.

If there was real solid evidence that they did this crime, I would not support them, I'd be condemning them. But I can't and won't come to a conclusion of guilt based on behavior that can be read many ways.

My questions you Griffin? Is do you believe that guilt needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt? And do you think your ability to "read behavior" qualifies you to condemn someone to prison when the physical evidence is this marginal?

No, the difference is I consider circumstantial evidence to be worthy evidence, and others like you apparently don't. Circumstantially, neither AK nor RS can agree on a single, coherent timeline in which they allegedly spent a night at home. When did the leak happen? Why did they need a mop the next day for that leak? When was dinner eaten? Why don't either mention watching Naruto? Why can't either remember if they made love? Only much later does Amanda "remember" taking a romantic shower that RS never talks about to my knowledge. And after the fact, why did AK see blood on RS hands from fish? Why did RS imagine he pricked Meredith's finger?

The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.

 

[Samson]

So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?

The body had been discovered two days previously actually.

She also said

The last time I saw Meredith, 22, English, beautiful, funny

She worked three jobs to get there, and was losing 300 euros, probably a weeks full wages, while giving all her time to the police.
She was writing to the folks back home, and the contents are none of our business. You sound pretty thin skinned nevertheless.

 

[MichaelB]

Another statement I find peculiar:

"Stefano’s room however, well, his bed was stripped of linens, which was odd, and the comforter he used was shoved up at the top of his bed, with blood on it. I obviously told then that the blood was defiantly out of normal and also that he usually has his bed made."

Why would AK know his bed being "stripped of linens" was "odd", or that his "bed was usually made"? I wouldn't presume to know the habits of anyone I knew for less than a month, and didnt' actually live with. It was also a holiday.

She and Meredith would hang out in the downstairs apartment and were friends with the guys.

Re the phone calls. Filomena tried calling Meredith then reported back to Amanda about those calls.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/amanda-knox-behaviour-myths/

From the phone logs of Nov 2nd 2007

- 12:07:12 16 seconds Amanda calls the English phone number 00447841131571 belonging to Meredith Kercher.
- 12.08.44 68 seconds Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006
- 12:11:02 3 seconds The Vodafone number 348-4673711 belonging to Meredith is called and its answering service is activated
- 12:11:54 4 seconds Another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number
- 12:12:35 36 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590)
- 12:20:44 65 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda
- 12:34:56 48 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda
- 12:35: Sollecito contacts service centre to recharge phone
- 12:38: Vodaphone sends confirmation of phone recharge
- 12:40: 67 seconds Sollecito recieves incoming call from Francesco Sollecito
- 12:47:23 88 seconds Amanda calls the American number 00120069326457 (her mother Edda Mellas)
- 12:50:34 39 seconds Sollecito calls Vanessa Sollecito who advises calling 112
- 12:51:40 169 seconds Sollecito calls 112 – gets disconnected
- 12:54: 57 seconds Sollecito calls 112

 

[Grinder]

So your friend, and roomate, has just been murdered, violently. In your house. 3 days ago. And you would express dismay that you're going to lose next month's rent because of the murder investigation of your friend?

Yes and Filomena went to her attorneys to deal with the lease issue. Meredith was dead, murdered but the others were still alive and needed a place to live and losing several hundred Euros would still be a bummer. Once again, had she not been charged no one would have ever commented on it.

You seem so wrapped into guilt before evidence that you can't imagine that if she did murder Meredith she would have done a better job with calls to Meredith leaving messages of her concern. From what has been written here appaerently Meredith was very concerned about time used on the cell. Amanda, not knowing Meredith was dead, called the phone but didn't want to run up minutes. I know, she should have been willing to use minutes since Meredith was dead but she didn't know that.

There was no reason she had to go to the cottage or she could have easily wiped up the drops of blood in the bathroom and of course the door would be locked and there would be nothing to notice with shutters and door closed to Filomena's room. They woulod have just gone to Gubbio and waited for a text. No text just return to Raf's place.

I'm not exactly sure what you expect Amanda to explain. It wouldn't be difficult to say she tried once but didn't want to harass her if she was with a guy.

The most frustrating part is that these questions don't allow for better plans. Why would they stick around? The PGP usually says to control the investigation or some such thing.

If she had called 3 times and left a message would that prove she was innocent or would you say that seemed excessive with what she knew and was obviously done to make herself look innocent.

 

[griffinmill]

Why not Griffin? It is a practical issue for a college student. And Amanda wasn't the only one thinking that way. Filomena and Laura were too.

You have a cite for this? We know Amanda was upset about losing a month's rent from her own words. I've never seen Laura or Filomena express the same thought.

 

[acbytesla]

No, the difference is I consider circumstantial evidence to be worthy evidence, and others like you apparently don't. Circumstantially, neither AK nor RS can agree on a single, coherent timeline in which they allegedly spent a night at home. When did the leak happen? Why did they need a mop the next day for that leak? When was dinner eaten? Why don't either mention watching Naruto? Why can't either remember if they made love? Only much later does Amanda "remember" taking a romantic shower that RS never talks about to my knowledge. And after the fact, why did AK see blood on RS hands from fish? Why did RS imagine he pricked Meredith's finger?

The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.

This isn't evidence. It is behavior and memory and small minor differences are expected. And I think you vastly over estimate your own and other people's recall. In fact, I KNOW IT. I've seen countless experiments about recall and if twenty people were at the same event, you are likely to get at least ten different stories. And lets say you were right on what happened, more than likely the other person would remember it differently and then you would be "screwed" because the two of you didn't remember exactly the same way.

My guess is your mind is so made up that if Amanda and Raffaele had told exactly the same story, you would come to the conclusion that they "practiced" as that is the only way their stories would match so perfectly.

This isn't evidence and it is really sad that you think it is. It is arrogant nonsense.

 

[Bill Williams]

No, the difference is I consider circumstantial evidence to be worthy evidence, and others like you apparently don't. Circumstantially, neither AK nor RS can agree on a single, coherent timeline in which they allegedly spent a night at home. When did the leak happen? Why did they need a mop the next day for that leak? When was dinner eaten? Why don't either mention watching Naruto? Why can't either remember if they made love? Only much later does Amanda "remember" taking a romantic shower that RS never talks about to my knowledge. And after the fact, why did AK see blood on RS hands from fish? Why did RS imagine he pricked Meredith's finger?

The list goes on, but if I was on trial for murder, and I was innocent, I would be be able to recall a a pretty coherent depiction of events, especially when I was with another person who could back my story.

An agreed upon timeline for leaky faucets would be interesting, only if someone provided a timeline for the actual crime itself. Apparently, neither can the Italian courts, and neither can the guilters provide such a timeline. Machiavelli once said one wasn't needed to establish a crime, yet for some reason when accused cannot remember the activities of a night in exact increments, some people get suspicious!.

It would be helpful if you would provide this timeline, including the time of death for the victim, and then the rest of us would know what timeline you are talking about.

In 6 1/2 years, neither guilters nor prosecution nor Italian courts have been able to provide one. Not only does Judge Nencini, for instance say that women have y-genetic material, he also has the murder happening within a two hour window, where Meredith did not even call home.

You are not providing circumstantial evidence, (esp. about the thing with the faucet leak), you are providing innuendo.

That's all guilters have ever provided. Please provide a timeline for this horrid crime, and THEN we can see where AK and RS fit in. So far no one has provided a timeline where they do.

BTW - you were kidding, right, about a disagreement over the timing of the kitchen sink leak being a key circumstantial sign for guilt? How then do you explain someone being able to commit this crime while cleaning her DNA out of the room, but leaving Rudy's? That is of far far more interest....

 

[RWVBWL]

Level of Concern?

I believe Mach addressed this at one point, but I've been reading Amanda's November 4 email and I have a few questions. This is not a "gotcha," and in no way proves guilt. I just want to know the opinion (or facts) of the innocence side.

In the email, Knox describes the blood in the bathroom as "strange" and, before leaving, feeling "uncomfortable." She calls Meredith's two phones at 12:07 (from other documentation). On one phone, "no one answered," and the other "just kept ringing" (calls which, also from other documentation, lasted 3 and 4 seconds.) AK and RS return to the cottage where a burglary is discovered and, combined with the blood, AK's alarm escalates to "banging on (Meredith's) door, "shouting her name," "panicking," an attempt to look through her window, question the downstairs neighbors, and ultimately a failed attempt to break down the door before police arrive.

1. With this level of concern, why were followup phone calls to Meredith not made? I find it even more surprising given that the first calls were made from RS' apartment. Calling the phones from the cottage would been logical to hear if they rang from behind the door.

2. Why didn't AK leave a message? I'll ignore the 3 and 4 second phone calls, but if she's concerned enough at 12:07, before the burglary is discovered, to call Filomena, then why not simply ask Meredith to call her back? Is she alledging that neither call went to voice mail? And even in the unlikely event they didn't, why not send a text?

3. Has Amanda ever explained this? Did it come up in testimony? (I sincerely don't know.)

Again, I'm not pretending that her behavior, or mistakes made, is conclusive of anything. I just find it hard to believe, no matter the level of panic, that subsequent phone calls and/or texts weren't made to Meredith, and that no message was left asking her to call.

Regarding the level of concern:
Today a surfer died at Sunset Beach here in Pacific Palisades, California
where I do shark research observation. The full details are not known yet.
There is local surf camera footage of the surf break, and this sad incident today.

He paddled for and rode 1 last wave at 12:24:19pm, kicked out, complained to a nearby local surfer gal that he was felling very tired, and headed in. He didn't make it all the way back to shore. He disappears under water.

Another surfer heading out saw this surfer in distress and went forward into the water to help him out.

A friend, a bro named Al,
who was parked along Pacific Coast Highway saw some problem with this surfer and then walked down,
he did not RUN, to tell the lifeguard of a possible problem.

My friend then walked, he did not RUN,
back and then down the stairs leading to the beach,
but when he reached the surfer, he did then start CPR until the lifeguard arrived a minute or so later.

Gosh, if Al watches the video from today, he might wonder,
WHY the heck didn't I RUN for help???
WHY didn't I RUN to give CPR???
The surfer is dying!!!

A lotta surfers and beach goers were upset this early afternoon.
I shot a few photo's of the scene, you can not see them.


Griffinmill,
my friend Al,
like Amanda,
had no way of knowing how the end result was coming about.
His level of concern was apparently not too worried, as the video shows.

But the surfer died.


Meredith is lying dead in her bedroom?
The blood drops in the bathroom, the poo in the other girlz toilet, the broken window show no apparent major clues that a woman had been raped and brutally knifed to her death, with blood all over the floor of her bedroom, right next to Amanda's own room.

Would you have thought that a roommate was knifed to her death in such a horrible, bloody way
just from seeing what AK reported in her email to friends back home?

Of course,
it always looks soooo much clearer afterwards when trying to understand everything,
as I just watched when I saw the archived video footage and saw the surfer today ride his last wave ever,
come in past a surfer girl pal, and then disappear underwater, whereupon Al and others tried to save him, without success...
RW

 

[RandyN]

I dunno.... all sorts of folk are chiming in....

Here's a test, though. Name one guilter (other than Machiavelli) who's stuck around to defend their claims?

Well they actually use to be quite prolific actually...and Stilacaapoo was one of them...

At some point the argument for guilt became too much of a burden for the saner of those and so they disappeared. They got tired of being asked to provide a time line that fits facts and proves beyond all doubt that AK and RS are guilty of anything...because that is an impossible task actually.

No one has even tried...well we actually tried it ourselves...IIRC no one ever came close without sounding foolish and making tons of stuff up ala Yummi/Mach.

The nuttier of the guilt arguers...retreated to the echo chambers of PMF's and Perverts site...returning here at every major case set back even though only briefly because they know...even they know! Stilachetoes...who at one time claimed to be a lawyer (kinnda like Anglo and Jackie) was a regular nutty argument maker here.

Now they just hit and run...usually with the personal details or questions like this recent person asking about a email sent home or whatever. The phone calls to MK or police...ignoring the fact that the local Italian Filomena was in town and at her BF's exactly like AK. And she didnt call anyone...especially police even though she speaks Italian ....she ordered Knox to call police...to me that makes Filomena more suspicious...but griffenmill wont bother with that....just these meaningless non-points.

Did someone ask about Stefano bedroom? Well Knox knew about that because she was a whore...didn't you know that? Meredith was the Madonna...well wait can Madonnas have a shaved vagina? That must indicate something? Same with the anal sex..deviant behavior if true certainly...and it must be true because Barbie Nadeau reported that critical information.

OK what was your question griffenmill?

You should ask police why they failed to investigate the bloody mess downstairs. They did some DNA work there...nothing about Knox...huh. Funny that.

Maybe Stefano told Knox when he left that his bed was made...told her after he returned that is...they were all free and available for several days...I suppose they all chatted.

The living arrangements were important...life did not stop for everyone after poor Miss Kercher was brutally murdered by Rudy Guede. 3 remaining roommates were homeless and without their stuff. Why is mentioning that seem suspicious to you?

Cuz... I think Rudy Guede sneaking off to Germany is something really suspicious...and the girls worried about living arrangements...not so suspicious.

So what else? Those blue eyes must mean something right?

Right.

 

[griffinmill]

She and Meredith would hang out in the downstairs apartment and were friends with the guys.

Re the phone calls. Filomena tried calling Meredith then reported back to Amanda about those calls.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/amanda-knox-behaviour-myths/

From the phone logs of Nov 2nd 2007

- 12:07:12 16 seconds Amanda calls the English phone number 00447841131571 belonging to Meredith Kercher.
- 12.08.44 68 seconds Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006
- 12:11:02 3 seconds The Vodafone number 348-4673711 belonging to Meredith is called and its answering service is activated
- 12:11:54 4 seconds Another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number
- 12:12:35 36 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590)
- 12:20:44 65 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda
- 12:34:56 48 seconds Romanelli F. calls Amanda
- 12:35: Sollecito contacts service centre to recharge phone
- 12:38: Vodaphone sends confirmation of phone recharge
- 12:40: 67 seconds Sollecito recieves incoming call from Francesco Sollecito
- 12:47:23 88 seconds Amanda calls the American number 00120069326457 (her mother Edda Mellas)
- 12:50:34 39 seconds Sollecito calls Vanessa Sollecito who advises calling 112
- 12:51:40 169 seconds Sollecito calls 112 – gets disconnected
- 12:54: 57 seconds Sollecito calls 112

So in other words, Amanda made two calls to Meredith at 12:07, for 3 and 4 seconds each, and then made no other calls to the phones subsequently, and no texts or voice mails, despite the fact she was "pounding" on the door, "screaming" her name, trying to look into her window, alerting the neighbors, calling the police finally, and terrified something had happened to her. OK.

 

[MichaelB]

So in other words, Amanda made two calls to Meredith at 12:07, for 3 and 4 seconds each, and then made no other calls to the phones subsequently, and no texts or voice mails, despite the fact she was "pounding" on the door, "screaming" her name, trying to look into her window, alerting the neighbors, calling the police finally, and terrified something had happened to her. OK.

Yes because the phones were unreachable. Filomena also tried calling.

Try reading a few of these for answers. http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/meredith-kercher-transcripts/

The IIP wiki only has a google translation of Filomena but she talks about the phone calls around page 28-29.

http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/...anelli-Battistelli-vs.-Altieri-Altieri-vs.pdf

 

[griffinmill]

This isn't evidence. It is behavior and memory and small minor differences are expected. And I think you vastly over estimate your own and other people's recall. In fact, I KNOW IT. I've seen countless experiments about recall and if twenty people were at the same event, you are likely to get at least ten different stories. And lets say you were right on what happened, more than likely the other person would remember it differently and then you would be "screwed" because the two of you didn't remember exactly the same way.

My guess is your mind is so made up that if Amanda and Raffaele had told exactly the same story, you would come to the conclusion that they "practiced" as that is the only way their stories would match so perfectly.

This isn't evidence and it is really sad that you think it is. It is arrogant nonsense.

Really? Their alibi (as convoluted as it has come together), is that they spent the night together in an apartment. It should be easy to corroborte. But as they told it, they can't agree on a single timeline after Jovona. They ate fish. They watched a movie. A leak happened. Ears got washed in a loving shower. Neither can clearly remember if they made love. And this was right in the immediate aftermath of what happend, not years later so they could pretend to forget.