Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Stacyhs]

Can't see Stacyhs pretending to be outraged when one of her own kind does it.

Look again. I don't approve of it even from AC. But his reason (easier to type than Meredith) is not why you do it. If it were, you'd have said so during one of the many times you've been called on it.

 

[Bill Williams]

If one wants to play the racism card - consider the comment made in the documentary that the USA had no business criticizing Italian law, because the law-court in Perugia was operating in 1308, and at that time, "Americans were drawing cave-paintings of animals."

That comment about "Americans making cave paintings in the 1300s" is about as racist as it gets - for all the reasons that the guy in the documentary could not understand.

To be technical for a minute, naming "Turtle Island" after an Italian explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, is a tad culturally imperialistic to begin with. By all accounts the various indigenous confederacies in pre-Columbian "America" had sophisticated law systems rivalling anything in Europe - particularly Italy, which even in the 2000s could not separate law from Catholic Theology.

So, to the racists in Italy and elsewhere who play that card at every turn to justify a wrongful prosecution, them who live in glass houses.......

Americans are not a race. To get US citizenship, you merely have to be born there, as in France, but unlike in Scandinavian countries, where you only get it automatically through your mother's bloodline.

The USA is a whole pot pourri of persons from all over the world. True, in 1308, most would have been Native Americans and the Spanish.

Note the man who signed the US Declaration of Independence was a Finn: John Morton, (real paternal name Mårtenson, his immigrant dad being Martti Marttinsen - in those days Finns had patrynyms, i.e., if your dad was called Martin, you became 'Martinsson').

Necessity is the Mother of Invention and of course the original settlers did a lot to build a new nation.

Think the year 1308. Then reevaluate what you've written. You've just wasted a bunch of keystrokes on a non-sequitor.

 

[Vixen]

Knox is just an exemplar of problems in forensic science. The forensic scientists for the prosecution were almost all serving police officers and looked to create a case against the accused. They failed to provide neutral testimony. They refused to disclose to the defence the details of the forensic examination. Some of the techniques used are dubious.

In the UK there is a registrar of forensic scientists, an independent forensic science service is being re-established. This is intended to ensure forensic scientists are competent and neutral.

The police jumped to a conclusion of guilt and investigated suspects rather than investigating a crime and being led by the evidence.

These are important issues for all of us as forensic science develops and has an increasing impact on court cases and juries.

That is just a PIP myth.

 

[Stacyhs]

And how will the American Bar Association impose this? I know America has oft been accused as being the 'policemen of the world', but to demand 'other nations' should adopt your ways, is a bit presumptive.

Only you would twist this into "demanding other nations should adopt your ways":

"Other nations should adopt this standard IMO."

 

[Stacyhs]

Americans are not a race. To get US citizenship, you merely have to be born there, as in France, but unlike in Scandinavian countries, where you only get it automatically through your mother's bloodline.

The USA is a whole pot pourri of persons from all over the world. True, in 1308, most would have been Native Americans and the Spanish.Note the man who signed the US Declaration of Independence was a Finn: John Morton, (real paternal name Mårtenson, his immigrant dad being Martti Marttinsen - in those days Finns had patrynyms, i.e., if your dad was called Martin, you became 'Martinsson').

Necessity is the Mother of Invention and of course the original settlers did a lot to build a new nation.

Did your reading of history not include the fact that there were no Spaniards (or any other Europeans) in the Americas in 1308? Native Americans are considered a race, so the term "racist" is quite accurate.

 

[Vixen]

When you say " I am sure that is true" I'm not entirely sure to what you are referring. Just to be clear, I think Pisa in this film is of help to the Pro innocent people and considerably unhelpful to the pro guilt people. When I talked of the emperor's new clothes, I was referring to looking at all the convoluted time lines and motivations and tenuous bits of speculation and realising that it all total nonsense. I do not think Massei had possession of all the evidence, being pre-Hellmann and I remember being struck with the harshness with which Nencini rattled out his guilty verdict. Whether or not they wanted to jail the pair for 30 years is kind of irrelevant to me.

I thought the film had a clarity that would have an effect on any reasonable person. Is it, as Amanda Knox says, really so difficult to put together a rather simple scenario of a young troubled man attempting a burglary and getting caught up in a horrible murder/sexual assault, having a degree of remorse by placing a duvet over the body, leaving and rather cold bloodedly/or trying to get some sort of alibi, dancing in a disco before fleeing the country. Then attempting to justify himself and minimising his involvement but not knowing what the police might know, so covering himself by not being able to identify who else was involved, but stating at least that Amanda wasn't involved and wasn't there? (And of course leaving his dna in quite a number of places).

You honestly don't have to reply in detail to any of this as it is over.

First of all, I do not dispute that many people believe what they see and hear in the media - and that includes their perception from the Amanda Knox Netflix that Nick Pisa and Giuliano Mignini were a couple of sexist ***** who succeeded in getting a wrongful conviction on an innocent person and her boyfriend.

However, there are plenty of people who have no illusions about the SUN, FOX or the DAILY MAIL.

Re the point about Rudy covering for Amanda, the Supreme Court - whom BiWi agrees with wholeheartedly - stated Amanda likewise covered up for Rudy, when she fingered Patrik.

It has nothing to do with either Pisa nor Mignini, but everything to do with the trial and everything that the prosecution and defence put forward as evidence or defence.

 

[Stacyhs]

That is just a PIP myth.

No, what is the myth is that it's a myth.



Sept 6, 2011
Stefanoni admits she didn’t provide the raw data to the independent experts. p253

“Dalla Vedova: The raw data, several times our consultant asked us to request for them to be submitted and we did so, can you tell us in a few words what this raw data is and if this data is available today in the case files?
Stefanoni: So, the raw data is not available in the case files, because they were never, let’s say, handed over. I can explain what they are…"

 

[acbytesla]

Then you're the only PIP I am aware of that has called her that.

I think I've read a few other PIP use it on an occasion. But I would agree it's incredibly rare. I also stopped doing it a long time ago because some people were offended by the familiarity.

But I still believe your original remark has some merit.I think that familiarity is part of their neurosis. This case has been OVER for 18 months. There is never going to be a ruling to reverse the Supreme Court ruling. So why does Ergon, Peter Quennell, Vixen etc continue to try and make the case against Knox? What can they accomplish? Not a damn thing.

I worry about them as their obsession is not only potentially poses a threat to others, it's destructive to themselves. It's a festering boil that can only eat away. It's sad they can't put it behind them.

 

[Stacyhs]

First of all, I do not dispute that many people believe what they see and hear in the media - and that includes their perception from the Amanda Knox Netflix that Nick Pisa and Giuliano Mignini were a couple of sexist ***** who succeeded in getting a wrongful conviction on an innocent person and her boyfriend.

However, there are plenty of people who have no illusions about the SUN, FOX or the DAILY MAIL.

Re the point about Rudy covering for Amanda, the Supreme Court - whom BiWi agrees with wholeheartedly - stated Amanda likewise covered up for Rudy, when she fingered Patrik.It has nothing to do with either Pisa nor Mignini, but everything to do with the trial and everything that the prosecution and defence put forward as evidence or defence.

Hmmmm...so which is it?

1) Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up all their own DNA, bloody shoeprints, and fingerprints while deliberately leaving only the extensive evidence of Guede behind or

2) She was "covering up" for Guede.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Stacyhs]

I think I've read a few other PIP use it on an occasion. But I would agree it's incredibly rare. I also stopped doing it a long time ago because some people were offended by the familiarity.

But I still believe your original remark has some merit.I think that familiarity is part of their neurosis. This case has been OVER for 18 months. There is never going to be a ruling to reverse the Supreme Court ruling. So why does Ergon, Peter Quennell, Vixen etc continue to try and make the case against Knox? What can they accomplish? Not a damn thing.

I worry about them as their obsession is not only potentially poses a threat to others, it's destructive to themselves. It's a festering boil that can only eat away. It's sad they can't put it behind them.

The only reason I'm really still commenting on the case is because I'm both fascinated and amused by their arguments for guilt. It's like watching a toddler scream, as he's having a meltdown, that he is NOT tired and is NOT going to bed and we can't MAKE him!

 

[toto]

First of all, I do not dispute that many people believe what they see and hear in the media - and that includes their perception from the Amanda Knox Netflix that Nick Pisa and Giuliano Mignini were a couple of sexist ***** who succeeded in getting a wrongful conviction on an innocent person and her boyfriend.

However, there are plenty of people who have no illusions about the SUN, FOX or the DAILY MAIL.

Re the point about Rudy covering for Amanda, the Supreme Court - whom BiWi agrees with wholeheartedly - stated Amanda likewise covered up for Rudy, when she fingered Patrik.

It has nothing to do with either Pisa nor Mignini, but everything to do with the trial and everything that the prosecution and defence put forward as evidence or defence.

I don't think Mignini was shown in that light in the film. If there was a slightly subversive element to his portrayal in the film, I might concede that showing him praying at church with the magnificent camera shot to the church's beautiful ceiling was saying something, but I am not sure what.

The ways the media built up the case I do think had something to do with the case. Where did get Pisa get all his inside "info" from, for instance?

I do not think you can underestimate Mignini's role in all of this.

The evidence was wanting.

Common sense should tell you that the Supreme Court ruling was rather complicated because it had to be consistent with previous rulings. If the evidence is "contradictory" then some of what is said is going to be reflective of that.

I would urge you to buy on ebay (out of print) Ludovik Kennedy's Ten Rillington Place in which the way the various people in positions of power dragged their feet over YEARS before it was formally admitted that Evans was wholly innocent of the crimes, or, because you don't like the term innocent, that Christie was wholly guilty of all of them.

Also Amanda did not "finger" Patrik. And you know the full story behind that, even though you choose not to believe it. And that story hasn't finished yet either, of course, though we know now that the courts have decided Amanda did not slander the cops.

If the exoneration of Raffaele and Amanda was due ultimately to the defence that was brought forward on their behalves, especially the Hellmann appeal, I won't argue with that.

 

[LondonJohn]

First of all, I do not dispute that many people believe what they see and hear in the media - and that includes their perception from the Amanda Knox Netflix that Nick Pisa and Giuliano Mignini were a couple of sexist ***** who succeeded in getting a wrongful conviction on an innocent person and her boyfriend.

However, there are plenty of people who have no illusions about the SUN, FOX or the DAILY MAIL.

Re the point about Rudy covering for Amanda, the Supreme Court - whom BiWi agrees with wholeheartedly - stated Amanda likewise covered up for Rudy, when she fingered Patrik.

It has nothing to do with either Pisa nor Mignini, but everything to do with the trial and everything that the prosecution and defence put forward as evidence or defence.

You do know that the Supreme Court ruled, definitively and emphatically, that the whole case against Knox and Sollecito was disgracefully botched and that there was not one single credible, reliable piece of evidence pointing to their guilt?

It's intriguing to see you still write posts which suggest that you are unaware of this information. That's why I'm reminding you of it again. You're welcome!

 

[LondonJohn]

Did your reading of history not include the fact that there were no Spaniards (or any other Europeans) in the Americas in 1308? Native Americans are considered a race, so the term "racist" is quite accurate.

On top of all this, it's an absurd appeal to emotion for someone like Biscotti to imply some form of superiority based on nothing but the passage of time. After all, modern humans first evolved and formed societies in and around the Great Rift Valley of modern-day East Africa - at a time when there were only apes and other wild animals in what is now both Italy and the US (and everywhere else). But in 2016, would you rather be on trial for murder in Somalia or New York? I think I know what most sane people would reply...............


Oh, and I also notice that Biscotti chose to omit that comparatively extremely recent part of Italy's history where a brutal Fascist dictator ran the country like a police state and rewrote the statute book to reflect his dictatorial desires (and the supine Italian people went along with it.....); and where a fundamentally lazy and corrupt Italy manifestly failed to grasp the nettle and expunge all elements of Fascism, to the extent that Fascist statutes remained in operation right up to a handful of years ago (and were only abolished because of pressure from the EU); and where corruption and organised crime are so deeply embedded within Italian society and business practices that most businesses have two sets of accounts - an honest set and a crooked set for the tax authorities - and almost every person in Italy has regular contact with the grey or black markets in goods and services. Who's looking like a modern, liberalised democracy with minimal corruption and black-marketeering now, Walter.......?

 

[Mike1711]

I've just watched the Amanda Knox Netflix documentary.

It's difficult to absorb it as would others who are not familiar with the facts. I knew before I watched it that AK and RS are both innocent.

I was left with a feeling of angry coldness towards Mignini. Not only is he an idiot who says idiotic things, he's evil. What is so repugnant about him is that he doesn't even know that he's evil.

Mignini is directly responsible for the suffering of many and his twisting and suppression of facts before, during and after the trial and appeals seem to pass him by.

He has no clue as to what he did wrong, and the monumental suffering for which he is directly responsible.

Criminals exist on both sides of the Justice system.

 

[Vixen]

Hmmmm...so which is it?

1) Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up all their own DNA, bloody shoeprints, and fingerprints while deliberately leaving only the extensive evidence of Guede behind or

2) She was "covering up" for Guede.

Can't have it both ways.

<fx knocks on solid wood>

 

[Vixen]

I don't think Mignini was shown in that light in the film. If there was a slightly subversive element to his portrayal in the film, I might concede that showing him praying at church with the magnificent camera shot to the church's beautiful ceiling was saying something, but I am not sure what.

The ways the media built up the case I do think had something to do with the case. Where did get Pisa get all his inside "info" from, for instance?

I do not think you can underestimate Mignini's role in all of this.

The evidence was wanting.

Common sense should tell you that the Supreme Court ruling was rather complicated because it had to be consistent with previous rulings. If the evidence is "contradictory" then some of what is said is going to be reflective of that.

I would urge you to buy on ebay (out of print) Ludovik Kennedy's Ten Rillington Place in which the way the various people in positions of power dragged their feet over YEARS before it was formally admitted that Evans was wholly innocent of the crimes, or, because you don't like the term innocent, that Christie was wholly guilty of all of them.

Also Amanda did not "finger" Patrik. And you know the full story behind that, even though you choose not to believe it. And that story hasn't finished yet either, of course, though we know now that the courts have decided Amanda did not slander the cops.

If the exoneration of Raffaele and Amanda was due ultimately to the defence that was brought forward on their behalves, especially the Hellmann appeal, I won't argue with that.

I read 10 Rillington Place years ago.


It really matters not a jot who said what to whom, for in Italy, there is no jurisdiction against press speculation during a murder investigation. On the one hand there were lurid salacious claims by a spiritualist clairvoyant, on the other there were mafia inspired calumnies against the police and prosecutors.

Sure, we can argue its morality. But there is no law against it in Italy.

 

[Vixen]

Did your reading of history not include the fact that there were no Spaniards (or any other Europeans) in the Americas in 1308? Native Americans are considered a race, so the term "racist" is quite accurate.

LOL. So you care about racism towards Native Americans.

 

[Stacyhs]

Hmmmm...so which is it?

1) Amanda and Raffaele cleaned up all their own DNA, bloody shoeprints, and fingerprints while deliberately leaving only the extensive evidence of Guede behind or

2) She was "covering up" for Guede.

Can't have it both ways.

<fx knocks on solid wood>

What part of "So which is it" eludes you?

Was it choice one or two?

 

[Stacyhs]

LOL. So you care about racism towards Native Americans.

LOL! If you sidestepped anymore, you'd be on Dancing with the Stars.

 

[Bill Williams]

What part of "So which is it" eludes you?

Was it choice one or two?

Don't bother Stacyhs. Vixen has also said that the documentary was edited to make Mignini look silly, but he came out of it looking sincere and credible anyway.