Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[NoahFence]

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

 

[Bill Williams]

If one wants to play the racism card - consider the comment made in the documentary that the USA had no business criticizing Italian law, because the law-court in Perugia was operating in 1308, and at that time, "Americans were drawing cave-paintings of animals."

That comment about "Americans making cave paintings in the 1300s" is about as racist as it gets - for all the reasons that the guy in the documentary could not understand.

To be technical for a minute, naming "Turtle Island" after an Italian explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, is a tad culturally imperialistic to begin with. By all accounts the various indigenous confederacies in pre-Columbian "America" had sophisticated law systems rivalling anything in Europe - particularly Italy, which even in the 2000s could not separate law from Catholic Theology.

So, to the racists in Italy and elsewhere who play that card at every turn to justify a wrongful prosecution, them who live in glass houses.......

 

[Bill Williams]

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

There is no need at all to care about Amanda Knox. That's the whole point. This could have happened to any "hot chick".

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Discover this, Columbus

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

This case shows why the American Bar Association was wise to suggest that the raw (unprocessed) forensic data be discoverable. Other nations should adopt this standard IMO. It also shows how easy it is to contaminate DNA evidence, and why courts around the world should be careful when it comes to low template DNA evidence. This case also nicely illustrates some of the problems of over interpreting presumptive tests for blood, such as luminol.

 

[acbytesla]

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

I'd say because she represents that wrongful prosecutions could happen to any of us. She isn't the kind of person that something like this happens to. She's white, she's young and pretty, middle class. Normally, this is the kind of thing that happens to minorities, the poor, and the uneducated.

It's about interrogation techniques, a rush to judgment, sexism, problems with both the media and the judiciary. It's one of those stories with a hundred different and important perspectives.

 

[bagels]

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

You shouldn't, she's just a random girl who in an ideal world we would have been spared knowing existed. But you might take an interest in people who have a bizarre obsession with this random girl who happened to share a flat with someone murdered by a burglar to the point where they'd like to throw her in prison for life. At least I did. I find that fascinating.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

This case shows why the American Bar Association was wise to suggest that the raw (unprocessed) forensic data be discoverable. Other nations should adopt this standard IMO. It also shows how easy it is to contaminate DNA evidence, and why courts around the world should be careful when it comes to low template DNA evidence. This case also nicely illustrates some of the problems of over interpreting presumptive tests for blood, such as luminol.

Important points for sure. But twenty-two continuation threads?

 

[Planigale]

Here you go, here's the court document.

Thank you for the effort.

Unfortunately this does not support your statement. You said, "... Vecchiotti was found guilty of professional misconduct by negligence and fined heavily. She swapped a DNA sample around in the Ogliata case. That's not an honest person. She is someone who will bend the rules."

I asked for a cite to support this. You provided a (poor) copy of a civil judgement. One is not 'guilty' when one loses a civil case, guilt is only applicable to a criminal case. You provide no evidence that Vecchiotti swapped a DNA sample.

 

[Stacyhs]

I am using the terms you, the PIP's use. Speaking your language.

You've claimed this before. I've never seen a PIP call Meredith "Mez". It's used by the PGP in an effort to present themselves as being more intimate and caring of her. Mez is what her friends and family called her, not complete strangers. And you are a complete stranger. Show her some respect by not trying to be something you were not.

 

[Stacyhs]

Let me know when men stop coming on to women.

Holy cow. Just when I think you can't say something that could shock me any more, you do. This is what you wrote:

"Every day was an exercise in self-defense.

One talented Italian chef used to make me some lovely meals, and then one day, he pounced! I had to physically fight him off. Another guy got me to take some documents to a hotel room, and the next thing I knew he was trying to wrestle me in!So yeah, it's bad behaviour, but find it hard to believe there was anything 'criminal' about it. "

So you consider having a man try and force you into a bedroom and another man pouncing on you to the point you have to fight him off just mere "coming on to you"? What next? Using rohypnol on a woman is merely "getting her in the mood for love"?

 

[acbytesla]

You've claimed this before. I've never seen a PIP call Meredith "Mez". It's used by the PGP in an effort to present themselves as being more intimate and caring of her. Mez is what her friends and family called her, not complete strangers. And you are a complete stranger. Show her some respect by not trying to be something you were not.

I've called her Mez. Not so much out of familiarity but because it is shorter.

 

[LondonJohn]

Important points for sure. But twenty-two continuation threads?

I think that it's as much a function of a) the crazy length of time its taken to resolve this case judicially (nearly nine years up to now, and it's still not entirely finished... ), b) the complexity and nuance involved in this case (which was exacerbated greatly by the misconduct and malpractice within police, prosecutors and judiciary), and c) the insane obsessions of a clique of pro-guilt commentators in continually trying to smear and condemn Knox and Sollecito (leading to an unpleasant "drawing of the battle lines").

 

[Vixen]

Thank you for the effort.

Unfortunately this does not support your statement. You said, "... Vecchiotti was found guilty of professional misconduct by negligence and fined heavily. She swapped a DNA sample around in the Ogliata case. That's not an honest person. She is someone who will bend the rules."

I asked for a cite to support this. You provided a (poor) copy of a civil judgement. One is not 'guilty' when one loses a civil case, guilt is only applicable to a criminal case. You provide no evidence that Vecchiotti swapped a DNA sample.

-in a civil case brought against Pascali, Vechiotti (and another dottore). The three of them were found guilty of negligence, and grave professional misconduct, and ordered to pay damages and all costs. The case under consideration arose from the forensic ‘investigations’ into the Olgiata case.


crime dell’Olgiata

The Olgiata crime was a murder took place on July 10 , 1991 in a villa of ‘ Olgiata , exclusive area located north of Rome, whose victim was a noblewoman, the forty-Countess Alberica Filo della Torre.

The case remained unsolved for twenty years [1] , mainly because of the poor accuracy of the investigation [2] .

After almost twenty years, in 2011 , DNA testing has identified the culprit in Manuel Winston, a Filipino maids, former employee of the family, who then confessed to the incident on 1 April 2011 [3] . The quantity and confession made sequel sentenced to 16 years’ imprisonment, imposed on November 14 following and confirmed on 9 October 2012 .

Index

Google translation: “The Civil Court of Rome by judgment of 21.4.2016 sentenced at first instance ex officio technical consultants Pascali Vicenzo Lorenzo, Arbarello Paul and Vecchiotti Carla for negligence in the performance of examinations of Outdated exhibits about the murder of the Countess, dismissing more than 150 thousand euro compensation awarded, on request the next Countess Alberica Filo Foundation joint Tower, in order to be used in charitable activities.”

 

[Vixen]

This case shows why the American Bar Association was wise to suggest that the raw (unprocessed) forensic data be discoverable. Other nations should adopt this standard IMO. It also shows how easy it is to contaminate DNA evidence, and why courts around the world should be careful when it comes to low template DNA evidence. This case also nicely illustrates some of the problems of over interpreting presumptive tests for blood, such as luminol.

And how will the American Bar Association impose this? I know America has oft been accused as being the 'policemen of the world', but to demand 'other nations' should adopt your ways, is a bit presumptive.

 

[Planigale]

-in a civil case brought against Pascali, Vechiotti (and another dottore). The three of them were found guilty of negligence, and grave professional misconduct, and ordered to pay damages and all costs. The case under consideration arose from the forensic ‘investigations’ into the Olgiata case.


crime dell’Olgiata

The Olgiata crime was a murder took place on July 10 , 1991 in a villa of ‘ Olgiata , exclusive area located north of Rome, whose victim was a noblewoman, the forty-Countess Alberica Filo della Torre.

The case remained unsolved for twenty years [1] , mainly because of the poor accuracy of the investigation [2] .

After almost twenty years, in 2011 , DNA testing has identified the culprit in Manuel Winston, a Filipino maids, former employee of the family, who then confessed to the incident on 1 April 2011 [3] . The quantity and confession made sequel sentenced to 16 years’ imprisonment, imposed on November 14 following and confirmed on 9 October 2012 .

Index

Google translation: “The Civil Court of Rome by judgment of 21.4.2016 sentenced at first instance ex officio technical consultants Pascali Vicenzo Lorenzo, Arbarello Paul and Vecchiotti Carla for negligence in the performance of examinations of Outdated exhibits about the murder of the Countess, dismissing more than 150 thousand euro compensation awarded, on request the next Countess Alberica Filo Foundation joint Tower, in order to be used in charitable activities.”

So you are wrong in saying they were found guilty and fined. Instead a civil case was brought for damages which they lost and the plaintiff donated damages to charity. You still provide no reference to Vecchiotti to swapping a DNA sample.

FWIW the breakthrough in this case came when telephone conversations tapped subsequent to the murder but never transcribed were reviewed. These revealed a 'confession'. The critical evidence was in the possession of the police / prosecutor for twenty years but never examined. Yet another example of problems in the police investigation of a murder. Vecchiotti was a substitute for suing the prosecutor, as the prosecutor is immune for incompetence in investigating a crime.

 

[Vixen]

I've called her Mez. Not so much out of familiarity but because it is shorter.

Can't see Stacyhs pretending to be outraged when one of her own kind does it.

 

[Stacyhs]

I've called her Mez. Not so much out of familiarity but because it is shorter.

Then you're the only PIP I am aware of that has called her that.

 

[Planigale]

Can someone give me a cliffs notes version of why I should care about Amanda Knox? Aside from the obvious need for gossip on a hot chick.

Knox is just an exemplar of problems in forensic science. The forensic scientists for the prosecution were almost all serving police officers and looked to create a case against the accused. They failed to provide neutral testimony. They refused to disclose to the defence the details of the forensic examination. Some of the techniques used are dubious.

In the UK there is a registrar of forensic scientists, an independent forensic science service is being re-established. This is intended to ensure forensic scientists are competent and neutral.

The police jumped to a conclusion of guilt and investigated suspects rather than investigating a crime and being led by the evidence.

These are important issues for all of us as forensic science develops and has an increasing impact on court cases and juries.

 

[Vixen]

If one wants to play the racism card - consider the comment made in the documentary that the USA had no business criticizing Italian law, because the law-court in Perugia was operating in 1308, and at that time, "Americans were drawing cave-paintings of animals."

That comment about "Americans making cave paintings in the 1300s" is about as racist as it gets - for all the reasons that the guy in the documentary could not understand.

To be technical for a minute, naming "Turtle Island" after an Italian explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, is a tad culturally imperialistic to begin with. By all accounts the various indigenous confederacies in pre-Columbian "America" had sophisticated law systems rivalling anything in Europe - particularly Italy, which even in the 2000s could not separate law from Catholic Theology.

So, to the racists in Italy and elsewhere who play that card at every turn to justify a wrongful prosecution, them who live in glass houses.......

Americans are not a race. To get US citizenship, you merely have to be born there, as in France, but unlike in Scandinavian countries, where you only get it automatically through your mother's bloodline.

The USA is a whole pot pourri of persons from all over the world. True, in 1308, most would have been Native Americans and the Spanish.

Note the man who signed the US Declaration of Independence was a Finn: John Morton, (real paternal name Mårtenson, his immigrant dad being Martti Marttinsen - in those days Finns had patrynyms, i.e., if your dad was called Martin, you became 'Martinsson').

Necessity is the Mother of Invention and of course the original settlers did a lot to build a new nation.

 

[toto]

I am sure that is true, but I am not one of them I took the trouble to find out the facts, and came to the same inescapable conclusions as the sympathetic Massei and Nencini. You don't think they wanted to jail them for 30 years, with six years mitigation for youth???

When you say " I am sure that is true" I'm not entirely sure to what you are referring. Just to be clear, I think Pisa in this film is of help to the Pro innocent people and considerably unhelpful to the pro guilt people. When I talked of the emperor's new clothes, I was referring to looking at all the convoluted time lines and motivations and tenuous bits of speculation and realising that it all total nonsense. I do not think Massei had possession of all the evidence, being pre-Hellmann and I remember being struck with the harshness with which Nencini rattled out his guilty verdict. Whether or not they wanted to jail the pair for 30 years is kind of irrelevant to me.

I thought the film had a clarity that would have an effect on any reasonable person. Is it, as Amanda Knox says, really so difficult to put together a rather simple scenario of a young troubled man attempting a burglary and getting caught up in a horrible murder/sexual assault, having a degree of remorse by placing a duvet over the body, leaving and rather cold bloodedly/or trying to get some sort of alibi, dancing in a disco before fleeing the country. Then attempting to justify himself and minimising his involvement but not knowing what the police might know, so covering himself by not being able to identify who else was involved, but stating at least that Amanda wasn't involved and wasn't there? (And of course leaving his dna in quite a number of places).

You honestly don't have to reply in detail to any of this as it is over.