Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Methos]

[qimg]http://www.salem-news.com/gphotos/1291490984.jpg[/qimg]

The room seems to be 3 x 4 meters or `12 sq m or about 100 sq ft.

2.91m x 3.36m to be exact.

 

[Vixen]

I think so! So you are saying Mignini considered the undercurrent of anti-Christianity in Italy, in particular with respect to masonic lodges who worship ancient Egyptian gods such as Basphamet. And he connected this all to Raffaele's supposed "knife fetish" and "dark fantasies".

And as we see from the formal trial transcripts:

"In addition, the three and above Sollecito, were all employees from the suggestions "cultural" erotic - murderous of which we have spoken and that night it was still the day of the Saints Holiday, "Catholic heir" of the Celtic New Year Samhain, with all the implications who have their central point in the eve of the Feast, ie the night between October 31 and November 1,"

He said Sollecito was involved with the murderous "cultural erotic" and that was the night of Saints Holiday (Catholic HEIR of Samhain -- i.e. he is clearly saying it is connected to Samhain. Sorry you missed that part Vixen! [Clear now?])

And despite all this talk of evil, the occult, and murder cultures connected to Halloween and neopagan holidays, what you are saying Mignini actually meant is "oh it just happened to be Halloween when this murder occurred but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with my theory of the crime! Here are my completely unrelated references to a neopagan holiday, murderous rituals, vampire slayings, evil fantasies, and devil tattoos. And when I said Halloween I only mean they were dressing up and going out for the funsies! OH HEY LOOK OVER THERE A SQUIRREL."

Is that a fair summary? Is this how your mind works Vixen? Despite what I said earlier, I may still have a fair bit of confusion and bewilderment. Though I am not sure it is my own doing. (Can anyone else make sense of this?)

It might help by starting at basics. Imagine you are a detective with good deductive powers, together with what we call "a good hunch" intuitive ability.

A body is found.

The major wounds include a knife stab to the right neck and a large knife stab to the left.

The body is posed in an abominable state, designed to appall whomever finds it.

There is a peculiar hand blood spatter on the wall.

There is a room with an apparent burglary, yet the room was ransacked BEFORE the window was broken. (OK, some would argue with that, so let's park that.)

You are Inspector Poirot.

1) You note the date. Ah, it's 1st November, a Thursday.

Hunch: Could this have happened at any old time of the year or is it salient:

a) it fell on a public holiday with all of the Italian house mates away (all, but for an English girl and an American) = who took advantage of the opportunity?

b) the public holiday coincides with the Halloween/AllSouls/Day of the Dead mix. = Could this festival be a factor as crime motive?

Now, in his summing up, Mignini gave us a lecture, rather like Bruno-Marasca pontificating about Gallileo and scientific theory (ironically highlighting their gross ignorance in their conclusions), about how, although this time of the year is of great religious importance to good Christians, it should be borne in mind that it coincides with the ancient pagan festival of Samhain, based on solar solstices, as are festivals such as Christmas (the winter solstice, Easter the Spring and St John's the summer). In other words, the timing of the murder may or may not be linked to the religious aspect of the holiday.

He did not mention 'a satanic rite'. Satanism is not the same as neopaganism or paganism. It is a loose system of parody of the Christian religion. They have Black Mass, they recite the Lord's Prayer backwards, they have sex orgies at the altar, and according to Scottish satanist, Aleister Crowley, they endeavour to sacrifice babies, et.etc.

Whilst Mignini, pointed out the date of the crime was a likely factor to the crime, he did NOT say it was a satanic rite.

 

[Vixen]

2.91m x 3.36m to be exact.
[qimg]http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Merediths-bedroom-with-measurments.jpg[/qimg]

That's roughly 9'6" by 11'. That's fairly spacious for a bedroom, given Mez had very little clutter. The room contained just a desk, a bed, a chair and a wardrobe.

 

[Numbers]

530.2 IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO "NOT PROVEN".

How many times does this need to be pointed out?

Ah well, I give up on this one.

It is "guilt" that is not proven in the wording of the relevant Italian law. Therefore, the accused in this case are innocent (=not guilty).

Article 27, Italian Constitution: A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed.

The final sentence in the rape/murder trial of Knox and Sollecito was an acquittal; they are therefore not guilty in accordance with Italian law and constitution.

Those that try to maintain otherwise simply express opinions that are contrary to a reasonable and rational understanding of the wording of Italian law and constitution.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

It might help by starting at basics. Imagine you are a detective with good deductive powers, together with what we call "a good hunch" intuitive ability.

A body is found.

The major wounds include a knife stab to the right neck and a large knife stab to the left.

The body is posed in an abominable state, designed to appall whomever finds it.

There is a peculiar hand blood spatter on the wall.

There is a room with an apparent burglary, yet the room was ransacked BEFORE the window was broken. (OK, some would argue with that, so let's park that.)

You are Inspector Poirot.

1) You note the date. Ah, it's 1st November, a Thursday.

Hunch: Could this have happened at any old time of the year or is it salient:

a) it fell on a public holiday with all of the Italian house mates away (all, but for an English girl and an American) = who took advantage of the opportunity?

b) the public holiday coincides with the Halloween/AllSouls/Day of the Dead mix. = Could this festival be a factor as crime motive?

Now, in his summing up, Mignini gave us a lecture, rather like Bruno-Marasca pontificating about Gallileo and scientific theory (ironically highlighting their gross ignorance in their conclusions), about how, although this time of the year is of great religious importance to good Christians, it should be borne in mind that it coincides with the ancient pagan festival of Samhain, based on solar solstices, as are festivals such as Christmas (the winter solstice, Easter the Spring and St John's the summer). In other words, the timing of the murder may or may not be linked to the religious aspect of the holiday.

He did not mention 'a satanic rite'. Satanism is not the same as neopaganism or paganism. It is a loose system of parody of the Christian religion. They have Black Mass, they recite the Lord's Prayer backwards, they have sex orgies at the altar, and according to Scottish satanist, Aleister Crowley, they endeavour to sacrifice babies, et.etc.

Whilst Mignini, pointed out the date of the crime was a likely factor to the crime, he did NOT say it was a satanic rite.

Vixen,
If Hercule Poirot came across a dead body on December 25th, would he pontificate about how perhaps Santa Clause was involved and there may be a connection to the worship of the Egyption god Horus? But not Satan. That would just be crazy!

Or would our hypothetical master detective perhaps discard his True Crime novel education and look at the evidence and see "oh look only one person left evidence perhaps it was one person instead of three. OH DEFINITELY NOT IT IS (APPROXIMATELY) HALLOWEEN MUST BE A SEX GAME WITH VAMPIRE SLAYING FANTASIES"?

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Also Vixen...

Are vampire slaying fantasies, eroticism, and sex games part of Halloween/Samhain/neopaganism/whatever? Or is it perhaps possible that Mignini's views about these religious holidays and what young people do to celebrate them is a bit warped? (Remember he referred to vampire slaying fantasies and the occult, if you forgot.)

 

[Numbers]

Numbers, the difference is, in an exoneration, you cannot be charged again as you are deemed actually innocent and cannot have committed the crime. Under Section 530 para II - actually a lower court jurisdiction - it is the equivalent of "THE CHARGES ARE DROPPED" and technically means the defendant can still be rearrested and charged later, subject to statute of limitation, which AIUI never runs out in the case of murder.

So, Amanda and Raff not exonerated. Subject to being brought back to justice should new evidence arise (for example a frank confession from any one of the three).

These statements are incorrect. The final definitive verdict is an acquittal, and a final definitive acquittal in Italy is exactly final and definitive.

CPP Article 648.1: Judgments delivered at trial which are not subject to an appellate remedy other than revision are final.

CPP Article 649.1: The accused person who has been dismissed or convicted by a judgment or criminal decree that has become final shall not be prosecuted again for the same offense, even if his conduct is considered differently in terms of legal definition, stage of the offence or circumstances, without prejudice to Articles 69.2 and 345 {that is, with the exception of dismissal due to the incorrect belief that the accused died (Art. 69.2), or cases that were dismissed due to lack of a complaint or authorization to proceed, and the complaint or authorization later is provided (Art. 345)}.

Revision trials are only available for judgments of conviction or other forms of conviction, CPP Article 629, and may be requested by the convicted person or next of kin or guardian, CPP Article 632.1, or the General Public Prosecutor of the Appeal Court in the district in which the conviction occurred, or both.

So your statements are completely false, and contrary to actual Italian law.

Posted information regarding law that is shown to be fabricated when compared to the wording of the actual law demolishes the credibility of that posted fabricated information.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,
If Hercule Poirot came across a dead body on December 25th, would he pontificate about how perhaps Santa Clause was involved and there may be a connection to the worship of the Egyption god Horus? But not Satan. That would just be crazy!

Or would our hypothetical master detective perhaps discard his True Crime novel education and look at the evidence and see "oh look only one person left evidence perhaps it was one person instead of three. OH DEFINITELY NOT IT IS (APPROXIMATELY) HALLOWEEN MUST BE A SEX GAME WITH VAMPIRE SLAYING FANTASIES"?

Please pull yourself together. Christmas Day has no association - pagan, Christian or atheist - with the dead, whereas Halloween, aka All Hallows, All Saints and All Souls, unequivocally does. In addition, Santa Claus as we know it, in his jolly red outfit, is merely an invention of Coca~Cola. Nobody gets Father Christmas tattoos done, either, nor has manga group sex and violence under the Christmas tree.

From wiki:

Some believe that the origins of All Souls' Day in European folklore and folk belief are related to customs of ancestor veneration[25] practiced worldwide, through events such as, in India Pitru Paksha, the Chinese Ghost Festival, the Japanese Bon Festival. The Roman custom was that of the Lemuria.[citation needed]

The formal commemoration of the saints and martyrs (All Saints' Day) existed in the early Christian church since its legalization, and alongside that developed a day for commemoration of all the dead (All Souls' Day). The modern date of All Souls' Day was first popularized in the early eleventh century after Abbot Odilo established it as a day for the monks of Cluny and associated monasteries to pray for the souls in purgatory.[citation needed]

 

[Vixen]

Also Vixen...

Are vampire slaying fantasies, eroticism, and sex games part of Halloween/Samhain/neopaganism/whatever? Or is it perhaps possible that Mignini's views about these religious holidays and what young people do to celebrate them is a bit warped? (Remember he referred to vampire slaying fantasies and the occult, if you forgot.)

You are saying he is a crazy loony Catholic paranoid because he happened to mention the murder took place at Halloween, and given Raff's obsession with knives, vampire slayers and manga demons, when it is a perfectly rational and balanced summing up of the context of the murder.

The vampire slaying fantasies are Raff's, not Mignini's.

 

[Vixen]

These statements are incorrect. The final definitive verdict is an acquittal, and a final definitive acquittal in Italy is exactly final and definitive.

CPP Article 648.1: Judgments delivered at trial which are not subject to an appellate remedy other than revision are final.

CPP Article 649.1: The accused person who has been dismissed or convicted by a judgment or criminal decree that has become final shall not be prosecuted again for the same offense, even if his conduct is considered differently in terms of legal definition, stage of the offence or circumstances, without prejudice to Articles 69.2 and 345 {that is, with the exception of dismissal due to the incorrect belief that the accused died (Art. 69.2), or cases that were dismissed due to lack of a complaint or authorization to proceed, and the complaint or authorization later is provided (Art. 345)}.

Revision trials are only available for judgments of conviction or other forms of conviction, CPP Article 629, and may be requested by the convicted person or next of kin or guardian, CPP Article 632.1, or the General Public Prosecutor of the Appeal Court in the district in which the conviction occurred, or both.

So your statements are completely false, and contrary to actual Italian law.

Posted information regarding law that is shown to be fabricated when compared to the wording of the actual law demolishes the credibility of that posted fabricated information.

No, a lower court does not have the jursidiction to exonerate, hence it will use Section 530 para 2 - which is a tool for the lower courts - to 'drop the charges'.

Quote from the translator of the Bruno-Marasca report:

The Italian word for “acquittal” is actually “assoluzione”; while the term
“proscioglimento” instead, in the Italian Procedure Code, actually refers only to non-definitive
preliminary judgements during investigation phase, and it could be translated as “dropping of
charges”. Note: as for investigation phase “proscioglimento” is normally meant as a not-binding
decision, not subjected to double jeopardy, since it is not considered a judgement nor a court’s
decision

 

[Grinder]

2.91m x 3.36m to be exact.
[qimg]http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Merediths-bedroom-with-measurments.jpg[/qimg]

So it's even bigger in sq ft than I estimated at over 105 sq. ft.

If this was standing area in a train it would accommodate 42 people in rush hour.

The maximum vehicle capacity is 4 passengers
per linear foot—approximately 2.5 square feet per passenger.​

While I don't believe the prosecution scenario, it isn't because the room was too small for 4 people. That was all I was saying.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Please pull yourself together. Christmas Day has no association - pagan, Christian or atheist - with the dead, whereas Halloween, aka All Hallows, All Saints and All Souls, unequivocally does. In addition, Santa Claus as we know it, in his jolly red outfit, is merely an invention of Coca~Cola. Nobody gets Father Christmas tattoos done, either, nor has manga group sex and violence under the Christmas tree.

Well now we are getting somewhere!

Would it be accurate to say you believe Mignini's hypothesis was that Raffaele, Amanda, and Rudy attempted manga group sex (with Halloween, Day of the Dead, occult, vampire slaying, etc. overtones) with Meredith. Meredith refused. And they got pissed off and killed her?

From wiki:

Some believe that the origins of All Souls' Day in European folklore and folk belief are related to customs of ancestor veneration[25] practiced worldwide, through events such as, in India Pitru Paksha, the Chinese Ghost Festival, the Japanese Bon Festival. The Roman custom was that of the Lemuria.[citation needed]

The formal commemoration of the saints and martyrs (All Saints' Day) existed in the early Christian church since its legalization, and alongside that developed a day for commemoration of all the dead (All Souls' Day). The modern date of All Souls' Day was first popularized in the early eleventh century after Abbot Odilo established it as a day for the monks of Cluny and associated monasteries to pray for the souls in purgatory.[citation needed]

While the Santa Clause murder spirit comment was a joke, you do know there are connections between modern day Christmas and earlier Roman holidays where they worshipped Roman gods (that Christians would view as pagan)?

Perhaps our fictional super sleuth just used the same logic as Mignini and deduced our Christmas murder had pagan roots and they were making a sacrifice to Saturn and Mithra? (But NOT Satan. That would be ridiculous after all.)

 

[NotEvenWrong]

You are saying he is a crazy loony Catholic paranoid because he happened to mention the murder took place at Halloween, and given Raff's obsession with knives, vampire slayers and manga demons, when it is a perfectly rational and balanced summing up of the context of the murder.

The vampire slaying fantasies are Raff's, not Mignini's.

Now... did Raffaele actually obsess over vampire slayings or is that something that you and the guilter loon cult made up? (Related: do you have that source where Raf stated he had the manga Devilman tattooed on his shoulder? You seem to be evading.)

And if we are indeed allowed to make up anything we want regarding the "context of the murder", wouldn't Satanic sex rite be just as plausible as Samhain pagan death murder orgy?

 

[Desert Fox]

So it's even bigger in sq ft than I estimated at over 105 sq. ft.

If this was standing area in a train it would accommodate 42 people in rush hour.

The maximum vehicle capacity is 4 passengers
per linear foot—approximately 2.5 square feet per passenger.​

While I don't believe the prosecution scenario, it isn't because the room was too small for 4 people. That was all I was saying.

The idea is not that they could not stand around and talk but that any kind of tussle would have resulted in people falling, hitting walls, leaving evidence, etc.

 

[bagels]

It's not so much the dimensions of the room as it is the clown car mentality the police and prosecution had to jump through to take a scene with the abundant forensic evidence of a single male and stuffing it full of extraneous people to maintain the theory they cemented themselves to after their illegal interrogations.

Patrick is black and knew Meredith and pinged near the cottage and the male DNA and footprints next to the body suggest the killer was a male so he's our guy. Except the break-in was staged and Amanda texted him so let's add her to the scene too. Except she is alibied by her boyfriend so we need to add him to the scene. Except none of them match the DNA or prints so let's add a fourth suspect.

They seemed prepared to add half the town into that bedroom before they conceded their night of illegal interrogations and beating statements out of innocent people didn't help solve the case.

 

[Numbers]

No, a lower court does not have the jursidiction to exonerate, hence it will use Section 530 para 2 - which is a tool for the lower courts - to 'drop the charges'.

Quote from the translator of the Bruno-Marasca report:

The Italian word for “acquittal” is actually “assoluzione”; while the term
“proscioglimento” instead, in the Italian Procedure Code, actually refers only to non-definitive
preliminary judgements during investigation phase, and it could be translated as “dropping of
charges”. Note: as for investigation phase “proscioglimento” is normally meant as a not-binding
decision, not subjected to double jeopardy, since it is not considered a judgement nor a court’s
decision

However, CSC may use whatever law it wishes to use to acquit ... see CPP Article 620 (l), the CSC "may proceed to ... take the necessary decisions".

The exoneration, using CPP Art. 530.2, was by the CSC.

Again, you simply make up false statements pretending it is the law. That is absurd. The actual law is written down in a Code of Criminal Procedure, the author of the original is the Italian Parliament.

 

[acbytesla]

There is no trace of Rudy in the burglary room. Odd, when he'd just scaled a wall 12'6" high and ransacked the room in advance,, it seems, of smashing the window with a 12" boulder weighing >9lbs. You riposte, ah, but he was wearing gloves, but then criminal-conscious Rudy then took his gloves off to leave a nice big palm print for those nice policemen? Really?

It's not odd at all. Not all surfaces are conducive for gathering fingerprints. In fact most aren't. Rudy was in the bathroom too and he left no prints there either. Maybe Amanda and Raffaele staged Rudy taking a dump as well!
It's worth noting that they never found Amanda's or Laura's or Raffaele's print in Filomena's room. Were they wearing gloves when they allegedly "staged" this burglary? Can't have it both ways in your thinking. BTW, only 2 identifiable prints of anyone were found in Filomena's bedroom. What a surprise they both belonged to Filomena.

It's quite dumb to conclude anything from what is not found. In fact, if I'm not mistaken they only found just the single palm print in the entire house! If they hadn't found the one, would that mean that Rudy did not kill Meredith?I

There is such an absurd quality to your logic. Why you're willing to ignore evidence that is exculpatory and why you insist that benign evidence is somehow probative.

And stop with the mixed blood claims. Meredith's blood was found mixed with Amanda's DNA. This is quite different and you know it. Finding anyone's DNA anywhere does not mean they were involved in a crime. It only means they were there at some time before the sample was taken. In fact, it doesn't always mean that because secondary transfer and contamination can be factors.

They were acquitted. Deal with it.

 

[acbytesla]

2.91m x 3.36m to be exact.
[qimg]http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Merediths-bedroom-with-measurments.jpg[/qimg]

Then of course, the bed, the wardrobe, a desk and a night stand. Not a lot of floor space. And yet only one set of footprints in Meredith's blood.

I hate to quote a commercial, but "where's the beef?"

 

[acbytesla]

So it's even bigger in sq ft than I estimated at over 105 sq. ft.

If this was standing area in a train it would accommodate 42 people in rush hour.

The maximum vehicle capacity is 4 passengers
per linear foot—approximately 2.5 square feet per passenger.​

While I don't believe the prosecution scenario, it isn't because the room was too small for 4 people. That was all I was saying.

Now, subtract, the bed, the desk the wardrobe and the nightstand.

 

[Desert Fox]

I would add that when you are standing in a train or bus, it is both an extremely unpleasant situation and you try to move as little as possible.