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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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What should have happened is a full unequivocal exoneration and an internal investigation of the corruption in Knox's case resulting in the firing and possible criminal charges against Mignini, the police in charge of the interrogation, and Stefanoni, followed by a massive civil lawsuit against the authorities.

But that's a fantasy.

What will happen is Knox will win a consolation prize when the ECHR [forces Italy to] overturns her remaining conviction.
 
No I provided the law as requested.



So it wasn't an oversight but rather part of the reform. The problem doesn't seem to be with acquittal but rather with conviction.

You and others will not convince me that the people of Italy don't perceive a difference between the paragraphs.

Yes, Grinder, your post indicates that you and some others perceive a difference, although there is no difference in the LEGAL consequences.

In your quote of CPP Art. 530.1 and 530.2, you have merely restated their language with a slightly different English translation. I have given you the background, from an essay by Mitja Gialuz, Professor of Criminal Procedure at the University of Trieste, of these articles which inherit their language from Italy's former inquisitional judicial system and the "presumption of guilt". You have not provided any evidence of any different LEGAL consequences following from an Art. 530.2 compared to an Art. 530.1 acquittal, when the acquittal is for the accused not having committed the crime.

I understand that you do not wish to change your opinion.
 
Just imagine that someone was found not guilty but under the Scottish "not proven" would that leave a different impression than innocent or not guilty?

ETA - Historically, the two verdicts available to Scots juries were that the case had been "proven" or "not proven". However, in a dramatic case in 1728 the jury asserted "its ancient right" to bring in a "not guilty" verdict even when the facts of the case were proven (see jury nullification). As the "not guilty" verdict gained wide acceptance amongst Scots juries, Scots began to use "not guilty" in cases where the jury felt the "not proven" verdict did not adequately express the innocence of the person on trial.

I understand Grinder.

Has Raffaele become a pariah there?
Has the general public allowed him to move on with his life?
What have been the ramifications?
 
Yes, Grinder, your post indicates that you and some others perceive a difference, although there is no difference in the LEGAL consequences.

In your quote of CPP Art. 530.1 and 530.2, you have merely restated their language with a slightly different English translation. I have given you the background, from an essay by Mitja Gialuz, Professor of Criminal Procedure at the University of Trieste, of these articles which inherit their language from Italy's former inquisitional judicial system and the "presumption of guilt". You have not provided any evidence of any different LEGAL consequences following from an Art. 530.2 compared to an Art. 530.1 acquittal, when the acquittal is for the accused not having committed the crime.

I understand that you do not wish to change your opinion.

Well it isn't just my opinion. I never said there was a different legal consequence. The difference is clear to me and Cheli. It's public perception.

Whether Gialuz thinks it is a bad law or not, it is the law and people notice. I'd sure notice the difference between a not guilty and a not proven if we had the option here.
 
Well it isn't just my opinion. I never said there was a different legal consequence. The difference is clear to me and Cheli. It's public perception.

Whether Gialuz thinks it is a bad law or not, it is the law and people notice. I'd sure notice the difference between a not guilty and a not proven if we had the option here.

You're allowed to have an opinion without reference to FOA lay-experts.
 
[qimg]http://www.salem-news.com/gphotos/1291490984.jpg[/qimg]

The room seems to be 3 x 4 meters or `12 sq m or about 100 sq ft.

How can the room possibly be 3 x 4m. A single bed is about 0.90 x 1.90m. A single door opening is around 0.9m wide.

Extrapolate the dimensions from there.
 
Well it isn't just my opinion. I never said there was a different legal consequence. The difference is clear to me and Cheli. It's public perception.

Whether Gialuz thinks it is a bad law or not, it is the law and people notice. I'd sure notice the difference between a not guilty and a not proven if we had the option here.


530.2 IS NOT EQUIVALENT TO "NOT PROVEN".

How many times does this need to be pointed out?

Ah well, I give up on this one.
 
IIP has just posted a link to a translation of Guede's statement to German police as part of his extradition hearings, given on 21st November 2007:

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...1-Deposition-Police-Koblenz-Guede-English.pdf

A number of things jumped out at me from this statement:

1) I strongly suspect that Guede's explicit mention of the money missing from Kercher's bedside drawer is because Guede himself took that money, so he knew by definition that money was missing from Kercher's drawer - and he decided to use this knowledge to provide some sort of motive for Knox/Kercher tension in his fabricated story.

2) In this account, Guede places himself sitting on the toilet listening to loud music for at least 6 or 7 minutes. One would have to ask why someone who was (per his fabrication) on some sort of romantic meetup with a young woman alone in her house would elect to sit on the toilet listening to loud music through headphones for that length of time, leaving the woman sitting alone twiddling her thumbs. Again, I strongly suspect that Guede invented this whole episode to suit his needs: he knew the police had evidence that he'd visited and used the toilet, and he needed some way of explaining how others ("the real killers") could have entered the cottage, escalated an argument with Kercher, and attacked and stabbed Kercher, all while he was inside the cottage but oblivious to events. So hey presto! He places himself on the toilet throughout this whole critical time - out of the way both visually and in an auditory sense (by virtue of the loud music on headphones).

3) Guede states that upon realising that something violent and dreadful was happening (he says he heard screams above the loud music in his headphones), he "immediately left the bathroom", but he "didn't even pull up (his) pants (UK: trousers) completely". I would question why somebody who wasn't being immediately threatened, but who was responding to sounds of violence some way away, would choose to put himself at a disadvantage of having his pants/trousers falling down his hips, rather than take the additional 1-2 seconds to secure his pants/trousers normally. I suspect that Guede invented this part of his story to "explain" why the mythical "real killer(s)" got past him so quickly and easily on their way out - it suits his story and his ego to pretend that he could/would have fought back against these mythical others if he hadn't had this disadvantage. Indeed, Guede explicitly goes on to excuse his inability to fight back on his pants/trousers slipping down and immobilising him at the critical point. How convenient.

4) Guede mentions that he was "scared to death" by the menace and threats of the "real killer(s)", but then he conveniently omits to mention in this statement that he went out clubbing in the central Perugia clubs/discos within a couple of hours of the murder.

I think the whole thing is a self-serving lie, which was invented by Guede over many hours and days, in order to fit with the evidence he knew (or suspected) the police already had.
 
Nobody staged anything.

There is no trace of Rudy in the burglary room. Odd, when he'd just scaled a wall 12'6" high and ransacked the room in advance, it seems, of smashing the window with a 12" boulder weighing >9lbs. You riposte, ah, but he was wearing gloves, but then criminal-conscious Rudy then took his gloves off to leave a nice big palm print for those nice policemen? Really?

Unfortunately for you, Amanda's DNA and blood mixed in with Mez' was found in two places in Filomena's ransacked room, plus her footprint on one of the scattered cards. Amanda WAS bleeding the same time as Mez. A blood spatter from a finger is on the 'down' bathroom light switch, indicating it was turned on at night. Amanda's blood IS on the faucet mixed with Mez' DNA and in the bidet. There is a faint ladies footprint in blood on the bathmat next to the one police experts attributed to Raff.

Police frame up? Or clear forensic evidence that Amanda was there for no innocent reason, and the courts had no choice but to find them guilty? Even Bruno-Marasca made a finding Amanda was there and did wash off Mez' blood from her person.

Deal with it.
 
I guess police corruption is not a myth.


Ex-Los Angeles top cop Lee Baca faces six months in prison for lying to investigators

Baca, 73, falsely told investigators he had no idea his deputies planned to approach and threaten an FBI agent in 2011 because she was probing allegations of corruption and civil rights violations inside his former lockups, the U.S. attorney's office said.

The plea deal calls for a maximum of six months behind bars, but the actual sentence will be determined by a federal judge, according to court filings obtained by the Daily News.

Baca now admits he secretly directed deputies to "isolate" an inmate suspected of being an FBI informant and "do everything but put handcuffs" on the FBI agent sniffing around his jails.

As a result, two deputies approached the agent outside her home on September 26, 2011, and threatened her with arrest, prosecutors said.


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ed-officials-faces-6-months-article-1.2527311


Logical fallacy: therefore, the Italian police in the Kercher case must have been corrupt.
 
Oh wait, I know somebody who celebrated his grandfather's birthday on 31st October every year! I'll use that as some sort of equivalent to the very specific HALLOWEEN FESTIVAL of celebrating evil spirits, since it happens to fall on the same day.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(Only hang on, no I won't - because the two are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS commemorating TOTALLY DIFFERENT EVENTS that happen to fall on the same date of the year. And because I know how to argue with intellectual honesty......)


ETA: to others tuning into this narrowcast, Halloween is very relevant to the Knox/Sollecito trials, since the prosecutors (and one of the convicting judges) made efforts to tie the murder to some form of Halloween-related ritual (while rationalising away the inconvenient truth that the murder happened the night AFTER Halloween through some nonsense related to the idea that they'd have "liked" to commit the crime the night before but just didn't get the right opportunity etc etc). And a not-insignificant amount of the "rationale", in both the courts and the rabid media, in 2007-2009 in particular, invoked the notion of Halloween to some degree.

It's therefore also extremely relevant to note that the Catholic Church - which is the established church of Italy, and of which IIRC Mignini (and probably many establishment figures in Italy) is a keen follower - is fervently opposed to the notion and practice of Halloween. Indeed, the Catholic Church in Italy has denounced Halloween "celebrations" as a corruption of youth. I would strongly contend that this dynamic almost certainly played a factor in the way Mignini (the chief prosecutor in the first trials) viewed the case, and why it would have been far more of a "hot potato" in Italy than it ever probably would have been in a country such as the US or UK (where Halloween is predominantly viewed as a bit of harmless fun with no anti-Christian undertones or notes of disreputable or corrupt behaviour).

And that, of course, it what makes it even more important and relevant to correct the risible notion that Halloween "is an important day for Christians" (and note the perfectly obvious specification of "Halloween" as opposed to the date 31st October - but I's sure that would be clear to all reasonable, logical observers anyhow...)


The assumption being made here is that Italy being Roman Catholic, satanists and pagans will bend over backwards not to get up to dark shenanigans on an eve the Catholic church condemns as sacrilegious and not perform any blasphemous acts. Riiiiight.
 
Hmm. An interesting hypothesis. So you are saying Mignini made a note about vampire slaying fantasies, Halloween, implied that Raffaele lived in this vampire slaying fantasy world, brought up a religious holiday related to paganism, said that that time of year (Halloween) could be a trigger for these vampire slaying fantasies, and he has a tattoo of a Devil(man) on his shoulder. But he totally didn't mean these pagan vampire slaying fantasies were related to a pagan erotic murder game with satan devil tattoos ............ After all Wiccans are fancy tree huggers in tune with nature! Raffaele and Amanda were just playing dress-up don't you see! Trick or treat!

I like how you think Vixen.

Sorry to hear you are suffering from confusion and bewilderment. The crime happened on 1st November, a Thursday. Italy being RC inevitably has an undercurrent anti-Christian element, in particular in masonic lodges who worship ancient Egyyptian gods such as Basphamet (_sp?). Mignini know this. The murder being committed by, it seemed multiple attackers, on someone with no known enemies, of course detectives are going to consider the context in which it happened. He didn't specifically mention it was a satanic rite, but he did point out the weird knife fetish and dark fantasies of Raff. The reference to Samhain (if indeed there was one, and is not just an idiosyncratic google translate mishap) is irrelevant as pagans predate Christianity and are therefore not anything to do with satanism.

Clear now?
 
You have simply repeated what I provided, but with a somewhat different translation, for CPP Article 530.1 and 530.2. You haven't shown what the alleged LEGAL difference is for the two allegedly different types of acquittal.

In my source (Mitja Giuluz et al., The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation), the text is slightly different, as I quoted earlier. CPP Article 530.2 reads "The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offense by law, the offence was committed by a person with mental capacity".

In other words, CPP Art. 530.2 states, among other reasons for acquittal, that if there is no proof (which to convict must be beyond a reasonable doubt, according to CPP Art. 533) that the accused committed the crime, the judge must acquit. This is no different than the grounds for acquittal in a US court.

Anyone in the US legal system, who was convicted, and then later found by an appeal court or retrial, to have not been guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, would be acquitted and thus exonerated.

Thus, Knox and Sollecito by US standards as well as by the laws of Italy are fully acquitted.

You have not shown any legal difference in terms of the consequences or effects of their CPP Article 530.2 acquittal compared to an Article 530.1 acquittal. Point out any specific legal difference in consequences or effects, or acknowledge that the difference is only one of perception among some.

I have previously posted a quote from Gialuz pointing out how this Italian procedural law semantic confusion in Article 530 was passed down from the pre-1988 inquisitorial justice system, and is now clarified by conviction only based on proof of guilt BARD, as required by CPP Article 533.1. I repost that quote here:

"With regard to the final decision, the CPP instead has solely eliminated the acquittal for insufficient evidence, which was inherited from the inquisitorial system based on the presumption of guilt. The Code only established that "the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also in case of insufficient, contradictory or lacking proof that the criminal act occurred, the accused committed it...." It was not clear, however, which was the required standard to convict a person and therefore Article 530 was considered one of the least successful provisions of the 1988 reform."

{The CSC in the 1990's began to reference a BARD standard for certain evidentiary situations; in Joint Chambers (United Chambers) in 2002, the BARD standard was declared to be the fundamental standard of proof for conviction.}

"In 2006, Law no. 46 embodied this evolution and changed Article 533, par. 1, by introducing a norm whereby the "judge shall deliver a judgment of conviction if the accused is proven to be guilty of the alleged offence beyond a reasonable doubt". This step has represented a step towards completion, from an accusatorial viewpoint, of the Italian criminal justice system."

Source: Gialuz et al., p. 37-38


Numbers, the difference is, in an exoneration, you cannot be charged again as you are deemed actually innocent and cannot have committed the crime. Under Section 530 para II - actually a lower court jurisdiction - it is the equivalent of "THE CHARGES ARE DROPPED" and technically means the defendant can still be rearrested and charged later, subject to statute of limitation, which AIUI never runs out in the case of murder.

So, Amanda and Raff not exonerated. Subject to being brought back to justice should new evidence arise (for example a frank confession from any one of the three).
 
How on earth can you tell what that tattoo is? Is it like how you guys "know" the bloody footprint is Raffaele's? It's consistent with a Devilman manga tattoo and compatible = a match?

Raff himself said he had it done in 2005 to reward himself passing an exam.

Forensic experts dealt with the bathmat print.
 
Sorry to hear you are suffering from confusion and bewilderment. The crime happened on 1st November, a Thursday. Italy being RC inevitably has an undercurrent anti-Christian element, in particular in masonic lodges who worship ancient Egyyptian gods such as Basphamet (_sp?). Mignini know this. The murder being committed by, it seemed multiple attackers, on someone with no known enemies, of course detectives are going to consider the context in which it happened. He didn't specifically mention it was a satanic rite, but he did point out the weird knife fetish and dark fantasies of Raff. The reference to Samhain (if indeed there was one, and is not just an idiosyncratic google translate mishap) is irrelevant as pagans predate Christianity and are therefore not anything to do with satanism.

Clear now?

I think so! So you are saying Mignini considered the undercurrent of anti-Christianity in Italy, in particular with respect to masonic lodges who worship ancient Egyptian gods such as Basphamet. And he connected this all to Raffaele's supposed "knife fetish" and "dark fantasies".

And as we see from the formal trial transcripts:

"In addition, the three and above Sollecito, were all employees from the suggestions "cultural" erotic - murderous of which we have spoken and that night it was still the day of the Saints Holiday, "Catholic heir" of the Celtic New Year Samhain, with all the implications who have their central point in the eve of the Feast, ie the night between October 31 and November 1,"

He said Sollecito was involved with the murderous "cultural erotic" and that was the night of Saints Holiday (Catholic HEIR of Samhain -- i.e. he is clearly saying it is connected to Samhain. Sorry you missed that part Vixen! [Clear now?])

And despite all this talk of evil, the occult, and murder cultures connected to Halloween and neopagan holidays, what you are saying Mignini actually meant is "oh it just happened to be Halloween when this murder occurred but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with my theory of the crime! Here are my completely unrelated references to a neopagan holiday, murderous rituals, vampire slayings, evil fantasies, and devil tattoos. And when I said Halloween I only mean they were dressing up and going out for the funsies! OH HEY LOOK OVER THERE A SQUIRREL."

Is that a fair summary? Is this how your mind works Vixen? Despite what I said earlier, I may still have a fair bit of confusion and bewilderment. Though I am not sure it is my own doing. (Can anyone else make sense of this?)
 
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There is no trace of Rudy in the burglary room. Odd, when he'd just scaled a wall 12'6" high and ransacked the room in advance, it seems, of smashing the window with a 12" boulder weighing >9lbs. You riposte, ah, but he was wearing gloves, but then criminal-conscious Rudy then took his gloves off to leave a nice big palm print for those nice policemen? Really?

How does your mind resolve the cognitive dissonance that must arise from the alleged lack of traces of Rudy in Filomena's room being exculpatory when the lack of Amanda's in Meredith's is not? Oh wait I already know the answer to this one. You metamorphize Rudy's bloody shoe print into Amanda's and then believe with a straight face that Amanda was wearing shoes with identical tread pattern to Rudy stepping in the same spot Rudy was stepping in at the same time. lol

Unfortunately for you, Amanda's DNA and blood mixed in with Mez' was found in two places in Filomena's ransacked room

Unfortunately for the prosecution the "blood" tested negative for blood with the TMB test for blood Stefanoni followed up every luminol spraying with to determine if she was dealing with blood or a false positive, she then suppressed the negative results but it eventually came to light and contributed to the acquittal.

plus her footprint on one of the scattered cards.

"-Exhibit Q (Romanelli’s room): two prints left by the superimposition of dust on a postcard were found. Print number 1, left by a right shoe and the sole useful for negative comparisons, was not produced by any of the shoes tested"

An unidentified print in a room trampled by a thousand people on the 2nd. It must be Amanda! Sherlock Holmes will soon be out of a job.

Amanda WAS bleeding the same time as Mez. A blood spatter from a finger is on the 'down' bathroom light switch, indicating it was turned on at night.

Rudy testified to going into the bathroom, and his footprint is on the bathmat.

Amanda's blood IS on the faucet mixed with Mez' DNA and in the bidet.

Amanda was proven to be bleeding prior to the murder. She had no wounds the day after the murder from which to bleed. But again I'm sure this is just another miracle. Meredith hits her hard enough to draw blood but not hard enough to leave a wound, swelling, or bruising. Getting away with murder is easy if lotto improbabilities follow you around like a lost puppy.

Deal with it.

Amanda was acquitted of murder. You're so incapable of dealing with it you had to invent a grand mafia conspiracy that goes all the way up to the Supreme Court of Cassation.
 
Raff himself said he had it done in 2005 to reward himself passing an exam.

I am sure you have a source for this. After all you are super trustworthy and would never lie. (Why didn't you post the source in the first place rather than a picture where it is impossible to make out what the tattoo is?)

Forensic experts dealt with the bathmat print.

Yep, consensus was that it was made by Rudy. Sorry you lose!
 
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I see no hidden meaning in Mignini putting it into the context of the time of year, an important day for Christians and very popular with students and people who love to dress up, as Mez did or into the context of modern moraes of people acting out their fantasies and going too far.

In case you forgot it Vixen, here was a post of yours from a few days ago, where you said Mignini only mentioned Halloween in order to put it into "context of the time of year", and it's very important for dress up.

All that talk of Samhain and vampire slayings, that wasn't related at all. He just meant people like to dress up as vampires. Totally relevant to point out in the middle of a murder trial!
 
What should have happened is a full unequivocal exoneration and an internal investigation of the corruption in Knox's case resulting in the firing and possible criminal charges against Mignini, the police in charge of the interrogation, and Stefanoni, followed by a massive civil lawsuit against the authorities.

But that's a fantasy.

What will happen is Knox will win a consolation prize when the ECHR [forces Italy to] overturns her remaining conviction.

Great script idea...for Fantasy Island.
 
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