Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

BTW: As a juror we are instructed to not form an opinions until we have heard all of the evidence. You have not heard all of the evidence. If you were on the jury you would have violated your oath. You are not on the jury so you are entitled to form a premature opinion about what the evidence "shows". That doesn't mean that everyone not on the jury must form an opinion about what the evidence "shows". That you assert what the evidence "shows" doesn't make your opinion correct.
 
Is the prosecution taking a dive?

Zimmerman's acquittal has been a foregone conclusion since jury selection was completed. But it would have been nice if the prosecution at least gave it the old college try rather than just going through the motions (no pun intended).

For example, while it's true the dubious nature of Zimmerman's alibi is on display if the walk-thru video is put under the microscope, the best way to demonstrate that Zimmerman is lying would have been to cross examine him in court. Which will never happen now that the prosecution has kindly afforded him the opportunity to present his puppy dog version unchallenged via the video.

Particularly with no blacks on the jury, the prosecution needed Zimmerman to testify- AND to come off badly- in order to have any reasonable chance at a conviction.
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State finished up with medical examiner, who was ... quite an interesting witness.

MOM then presented an argument for JOA.

Mantei responds for prosecution.
 
A few items from the ME testimony earlier that may clear up some claims from earlier in the thread.

1: TM may have lived for 1-10 minutes, ME doesn't really know for sure. Changed his thought from 1-3 minutes based on a new evidence.

- this contradicts all of those who claim TM would have died immediately, and scoffed at GZ claiming he sat up, or said anything after being shot

2: Level of marijuana in system Could be "no effect or some effect."

- this contradicts ME earlier claim that THC level too low to have an effect

3: Gunshot was intermediate range (0.4" - 4')

- ME claimed it was not his job to determine any further what the actual distance was, just that range
 
The ME's testimony concluded the state's case, and the defense argued unsuccessfully to admit the testimony of TM's toxicology report, and even though the ME said the jury should be allowed to hear that TM's level of THC in his system would likely influence his mental state at that time.

Friday should wrap up the state's case with the actual Medical Examiner and Trayvon's family members.

I would also suspect that a Motion for Judgment of Acquittal is being drafted this weekend. Zimmerman still has the option to seek statutory immunity, though I don't see the benefit of presenting that motion until after Zimmerman presents his defense.

As many of us suspected, this is being argued right now. O'Mara has brought up numerous cases that the judge should compare to this case. The judge, however, denied the Motion as I was typing this.
 

No, it's a whole lot of speculation based on a either a poor understanding of how people act and memory works (or doesn't), or through deliberate bias.

The entire article can be summed up as an argument from incredulity, which the author even admits. On top of that he ignores the testimony of the Doctor that actually examined GZ and goes with the Testimony of the ME that looked at photos. He also completely ignored the testimony of the police Detective that noted that minor inconstancies are expected, that none of the ones GZ had were red flags, that people who are being attacked often over estimate the attack due to panic, and that what GZ claimed was backed up by the evidence they had independently gathered.

There seems to be a belief among some people who have no understanding of how memory functions that unless you tell the exact same story without any deviation to it at all, you must be lying about the entire thing. Here's a clue. You tell a cop the identical story each time they interview you, unless you have a photographic memory with perfect recall, you'll end up in jail because the only other way to do that is to have rehearsed the story until you know it verbatim, and that's a HUGE red flag.
 
TM was 5'11" tall and 158 pounds. GZ is 5'9" and weighed 204. Who is way bigger?

correction: GZ is 5'7". Being a fat lump of pizza dough who is "bigger" confers no physical advantages over being a fit 17 year old who is in the full flower of his youth and athleticism.
 
correction: GZ is 5'7". Being a fat lump of pizza dough who is "bigger" confers no physical advantages over being a fit 17 year old who is in the full flower of his youth and athleticism.

I would much rather fight someone 50 lbs. heavier than me as opposed to someone 50 lbs. lighter.
 
A few items from the ME testimony earlier that may clear up some claims from earlier in the thread.

1: TM may have lived for 1-10 minutes, ME doesn't really know for sure. Changed his thought from 1-3 minutes based on a new evidence.

- this contradicts all of those who claim TM would have died immediately, and scoffed at GZ claiming he sat up, or said anything after being shot

2: Level of marijuana in system Could be "no effect or some effect."

- this contradicts ME earlier claim that THC level too low to have an effect

3: Gunshot was intermediate range (0.4" - 4')

- ME claimed it was not his job to determine any further what the actual distance was, just that range

Also "Anything that goes wrong is not my fault and I'm just the supervisor I can't make them do their jobs right. No! those are my notes! You can't see them!!!" He was definitely a very special witness.

Where are Trayvon's shoes?
 
correction: GZ is 5'7". Being a fat lump of pizza dough who is "bigger" confers no physical advantages over being a fit 17 year old who is in the full flower of his youth and athleticism.

That's obvious from the beating GZ took. I consider the attempts to portray GZ as the Incredible Hulk to be overtly dishonest.

GZ is probably at least 75 lb heavier than he was at the time of the police walkthrough video which clearly showed a small man who could not have been very strong. At any rate, that extra weight he's put on is not muscle. It is fat. He did have some fat on him at the time of the fight. In a fight, fat slows a combatant down and adversely affects his endurance. The only advantage of being fat is that it makes the combatant harder to move around. But that cuts both ways too. Once the fat combatant is on his back, it is also harder for the fat combatant to get off his back.

Not that TM was that much lighter at the time of the fight. GZ might have 15-20 lb heavier at most, but that was all fat.

Advantage, TM. Light to fight, thin to win, significant reach advantage, biological prime.
 
According to the medical examiner that performed the autopsy on TM, he was 5'11" tall. Hardly towering over someone who is 5'10".

In the 7/11 video, Martin is towering above the clerk at 5'10" and by extension George at 5'7". "A picture is worth a thousand words" Fred Bernard.
 
I imagine you're still smarting from the "blood on his hands" smackdown.

Would that be from the pictures of the hands the medical examiner took ?

...

What, the medical examiner didn't take pictures of the hands, and can't remember at all what they looked like ?
 
I'm willing to bet the prosecution will have actual audio experts testify regarding the identity of the screamer as opposed to relying on the inherently biased, non-expert opinion of the victim's parents.

Too bad we didn't bet :)
 
I have been thinking on this for a few days and am genuinely trying to come to a secure position on the relevance of some of the things O'Mara wants to bring to the trial. I hate to pull the race card but under these circumstances, I race is obviously a big part of this case.

When it comes to Trayvon's history, previous fights and even social media behavior can give an indication to his behavior. If everything about his behavior, prior to that night, paints a picture of a shy, timid kid who is typically scared of confrontation, it would give a good indication of who likely started the physical altercation, especially since Zimmerman does not have a squeaky clean history. If he was typically an aggressive kid, impulsive and quick to fly off the handle, it doesn't exactly prove he started the altercation but it would refute the statement, "Trayvon just wouldn't do that." It's not a case closer but it could be part of a greater picture for the defense.

The things that I am less comfortable with are the image Trayvon portrayed, as in fashion choices. It is sad that in 2013 we are still facing this but I am of the opinion that in a random selection of people (especially if the jury is more white than black), there is a greater likelihood that Trayvon's fashion choices; baggy clothes, hoodie, gold teeth, tattoos, etc, are going to be seen as more thug-like simply because he is black.

I agree that the whole jewelry thing is completely irrelevant. Whether he was, prior to this night, some kid who made the mistake of holding stolen jewelry for a friend and refused to give up his friend's name, a full time burglar, or in possession of that jewelry for completely innocuous reasons, there was no reports of burglaries that night and he was not in possession of any stolen property that night. Even if Zimmerman was dead on accurate and Trayvon was "casing" houses, no actual crime was committed, there is no evidence of an intent to commit a crime and his real intention is something that we will never know. There is simply zero evidence that he was doing anything other than walking home, when Zimmerman spotted him. Regardless of how long he took to get there, he was not breaking any laws, choosing to meander rather than briskly walk.

Where I am torn is Zimmerman's right to a defense. I probably wouldn't feel the same reluctance if Trayvon was white. It could me my latent racism and/or it could be the general attitude of whites that I am exposed to. I live one county south of Seminole. In Florida, community characteristics change drastically in short distances so Seminole could be completely alien to me. While Brevard county is predominantly a mix of people from all over the country, it seems to be a little more liberal than say, 1960's Alabama. The prevailing attitude I hear from whites is, "I don't have anything against black people, in general, I just hate those thug- wanna be types who talk in that gutter-slang." On one hand, I don't think it's fair for the defense to hold back a potentially valid defense on the off chance that the jury might be a little racist but on the other hand, the image painted of Trayvon, could really hurt the jury's ability to see him as a typical teenage victim.

I have my opinion on the known facts of this case; regardless of all the suspicion thrown around, I just don't feel that I've seen enough evidence to point in either direction, on what I feel are the deciding factors. I still follow this thread and I will probably follow the case thread more and if I have time to watch the case, I most certainly will. If Zimmerman is found not guilty, I would want it to be because the state failed to prove a case of guilt. I would feel sick if he were to be found not guilty because the jury saw, just another black kid, thug wanna be who dug is own grave. Regardless of my opinion of Crump, I suspect that is the very reason why when he made a public case, he was behind the scenes locking down his social networking persona and trying to get his school records sealed. Any thoughts?

After having watched the prosecution, are you still worried about this ?:
I would feel sick if he were to be found not guilty because the jury saw, just another black kid, thug wanna be who dug is own grave
 
In the 7/11 video, Martin is towering above the clerk at 5'10" and by extension George at 5'7". "A picture is worth a thousand words" Fred Bernard.

I really don't know what the entire "who was taller" debate is trying to prove in the first place. What, Martin was taller than Zimmerman, so running away was assault?
 

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