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Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It is possible, because we discussed this issue in detail before. I didn't say LondonJohn was lying. Only a scoundrel uses ad hominem in a debate. I questioned his motive in claiming there were only three texts exchanged when it's established Amanda texted/rang Mez throughout the day and Mez did not answer until 8:00 ish, to give Amanda the clear brush-off.

Perhaps he thinks he's rescuing his princess, or something.


What? What the bloody hell are you talking about? Firstly, you did say I was lying. You said "everybody knew" I'd only reproduced half the text messages. You're the damn liar here, Vixen. And it's totally not "established" that "Amanda texted/rand Mez Meredith throughout the day and Mez Meredith did not answer until 8:00 ish, to give Amanda the clear brush-off". In fact, not a single part of that sentence is true. Well done. Again, it's you who's lying here.

And don't dare to write anything like the last sentence again. You disgust me with your crude and outrageous (and incorrect) insinuations. You should be damn ashamed of yourself for dealing from the bottom of the pack like that. Shame on you, "Vixen". You're a disgrace.
 
No, I am calling you a liar. What he wrote in his book is as outlined. By the time of the Nencini trial, Raffaele, through Bongiorno, requested that the stain be tested both for its composition and ownership. Nencini denied the request.

Nencini was the Appeal court. Bongiorno advised Raff not to bring up the pillow stain at the merits hearing. This is the fact-finding hearing.

Bongiorno knows the protocol. Her first duty is to the court and here she is telling her client, "Psssttt! Better not mention the purported semen stain, which you are afraid might be yours!"

Bongiorno has to take 100% responsibility for her legerdemain behaviour, albeit on her client's instructions.
 
It is possible, because we discussed this issue in detail before. I didn't say LondonJohn was lying. Only a scoundrel uses ad hominem in a debate. I questioned his motive in claiming there were only three texts exchanged when it's established Amanda texted/rang Mez throughout the day and Mez did not answer until 8:00 ish, to give Amanda the clear brush-off.

Perhaps he thinks he's rescuing his princess, or something.

You said he was lying through omission. And by the way, it is not an ad hominem to say someone is lying when in fact that is what they are doing. The scoundrel is the one who is incessantly making misleading and deceptive posts.
 
Nencini was the Appeal court. Bongiorno advised Raff not to bring up the pillow stain at the merits hearing. This is the fact-finding hearing.

Bongiorno knows the protocol. Her first duty is to the court and here she is telling her client, "Psssttt! Better not mention the purported semen stain, which you are afraid might be yours!"

Bongiorno has to take 100% responsibility for her legerdemain behaviour, albeit on her client's instructions.

As the Massei appeal court showed, an appeal court hearing is a full evidentiary trial. Indeed, Nencini completely reinterpreted the Conti & Vecchiotti report, to - in his view - show why it did not negate Stefanoni's evidence at the 1st grade hearing.

We've really move far from the original haven't we. I guess that is what slow-flooding a thread with useless posts is all about.
 
Nencini was the Appeal court. Bongiorno advised Raff not to bring up the pillow stain at the merits hearing. This is the fact-finding hearing.

Bongiorno knows the protocol. Her first duty is to the court and here she is telling her client, "Psssttt! Better not mention the purported semen stain, which you are afraid might be yours!"

Bongiorno has to take 100% responsibility for her legerdemain behaviour, albeit on her client's instructions.


You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Again. :D

Obviously you don't have the intellectual (or objective) capacity to place yourself - even hypothetically - into the position of an innocent Sollecito in this scenario. Nonetheless, I invite you to have a go at doing so. Then you might understand what happened (and didn't happen) from Sollecito's perspective a little better. You're welcome :)
 
Now you are being evasive. Mez was murdered in front of the wardrobe.

The evasiveness is yours because your original argument is that Amanda knew something about the crime scene that she shouldnt. Since she was NOT in the wardrobe, your assertion was incorrect. What a surprise.
 
You said he was lying through omission. And by the way, it is not an ad hominem to say someone is lying when in fact that is what they are doing. The scoundrel is the one who is incessantly making misleading and deceptive posts.


Yep. It's a pretty textbook example in sophistry, misdirection and flat-out dissembling. It's actually pretty fascinating to witness, even if it like trying to mud wrestle an eel......

Perhaps if I put it in all bold caps, the message might get through:

THERE WAS A SUM TOTAL OF THREE TEXT MESSAGES SENT BETWEEN KNOX AND KERCHER ON THE EVENING/NIGHT OF 31ST OCTOBER 2007: TWO WERE SENT BY KNOX AND ONE WAS SENT BY KERCHER. ALL THREE WERE SENT WITHIN A 15-MINUTE WINDOW AROUND 7PM.

Maybe that might make things clearer. I hope so, but I somehow doubt it. I also doubt (to the point of knowing it's not going to happen) that Vixen will ever acknowledge that she made a mistake (even an honest one....) on this matter. But there you go. At least it helps one evaluate all her other "arguments".
 
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Again. :D

Obviously you don't have the intellectual (or objective) capacity to place yourself - even hypothetically - into the position of an innocent Sollecito in this scenario. Nonetheless, I invite you to have a go at doing so. Then you might understand what happened (and didn't happen) from Sollecito's perspective a little better. You're welcome :)

Quite frankly, an innocent person would say, go ahead, there's no way you'll find any incriminating trace of me.

Instead, here we have a massive quantity of Raff DNA on the bra clasp, when Mez was not undressed until post mortem, underneath the pillow, underneath the body.

Perhaps the fear was Raff stains on the door knob would be transferred on the gloves of Napoleoni.

Yeeah, that's a very reasonable fear for an innocent person to have, especially when one's footprint in blood turns up on the bathmat, and elsewhere, including in Amanda's room. Bloody pigs, planting footprints and DNA.
 
Quite frankly, an innocent person would say, go ahead, there's no way you'll find any incriminating trace of me.

Instead, here we have a massive quantity of Raff DNA on the bra clasp, when Mez was not undressed until post mortem, underneath the pillow, underneath the body.

Perhaps the fear was Raff stains on the door knob would be transferred on the gloves of Napoleoni.

Yeeah, that's a very reasonable fear for an innocent person to have, especially when one's footprint in blood turns up on the bathmat, and elsewhere, including in Amanda's room. Bloody pigs, planting footprints and DNA.


Hehehehe brilliant stuff!

Incidentally, do you know what mass of Sollecito's DNA was allegedly discovered on Kercher's bra clasp? (Hint: you might want to revisit your ludicrous use of the term "massive" :D) Oh, and do you have any idea about what the ultimate SC report said about this "evidence", and whether or not it could be considered reliable and/or admissible? And the same about the bathmat partial print?
 
Hehehehe brilliant stuff!

Incidentally, do you know what mass of Sollecito's DNA was allegedly discovered on Kercher's bra clasp? (Hint: you might want to revisit your ludicrous use of the term "massive" :D) Oh, and do you have any idea about what the ultimate SC report said about this "evidence", and whether or not it could be considered reliable and/or admissible? And the same about the bathmat partial print?

From wiki:
The terms "relative fluorescence units" (RFU)[1] and "RFU peak" refer to measurements in electrophoresis methods, such as for DNA analysis. A "relative fluorescence unit" is a unit of measurement used in analysis which employs fluorescence detection.[2] Fluorescence is detected using a charged coupled device (CCD) array, when the labeled fragments, which are separated within a capillary by using electrophoresis, are energized by laser light and travel across the detection window. A computer program measures the results, determining the quantity or size of the fragments, at each data point, from the level of fluorescence intensity.[2] Samples which contain higher quantities of amplified DNA will have higher corresponding RFU values.[3][4]

An "RFU peak" is a relative maximum point along a graph of the analyzed data. The data can be normalized to DNA input or additional normalizing genes. The RFU heights can range from 0 to 2000 or more.

The DNA on the bra clasp showed a stunning Raff DNA RFU's at 1,300.
 
Yep. It's a pretty textbook example in sophistry, misdirection and flat-out dissembling. It's actually pretty fascinating to witness, even if it like trying to mud wrestle an eel......

Perhaps if I put it in all bold caps, the message might get through:

THERE WAS A SUM TOTAL OF THREE TEXT MESSAGES SENT BETWEEN KNOX AND KERCHER ON THE EVENING/NIGHT OF 31ST OCTOBER 2007: TWO WERE SENT BY KNOX AND ONE WAS SENT BY KERCHER. ALL THREE WERE SENT WITHIN A 15-MINUTE WINDOW AROUND 7PM.

Maybe that might make things clearer. I hope so, but I somehow doubt it. I also doubt (to the point of knowing it's not going to happen) that Vixen will ever acknowledge that she made a mistake (even an honest one....) on this matter. But there you go. At least it helps one evaluate all her other "arguments".

I have always tried to refrain from suggesting someone was lying. It's pretty strong. It suggests that someone is deliberately being deceptive. A mistake is not a lie. People make mistakes all the time.

But there is no other possible explanation. These posts are a barrage of falsehoods. At some point it would be dishonest not to describe them as lies.
 
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Let's say you are correct. How can the prosecution, especially one seeking the truth, not test a stain found in a place under the victim that could be sperm or maybe sputum of the killer or an accomplice?

Though difficult, try to imagine Raf didn't kill or take part in the killing and knew the knife had never left his place, yet the ICSI had "found" the DNA. Wouldn't that worry you as what DNA they'd find in the stain?

Can you come up with a better excuse than it would destroy the "print" on the pillow case?

I'll answer your question. I can come up with a "better excuse than it would destroy the "print" on the pillow case."

Here goes -
In accord with Prosecutor Mignini's concern to conserve taxpayers' resources, they didn't test the possible semen stain due to budget constraints. :p
 
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I'll answer your question. I can come up with a "better excuse than it would destroy the "print" on the pillow case."

Here goes -
In accord with Prosecutor Mignini's concern to conserve taxpayers' resources, they didn't test the possible semen stain due to budget constraints. :p

Actually that would be a better reason. Testing the stain wouldn't need to destroy the print and photos could be taken to preserve the exact look before the testing should there be an issue later.

Truly not testing the stain is one of the most bizarre aspects of this case and the position taken by the PGP. Why in the world they wouldn't just agree it was stupid causes the mind to reel. More off-the-wall than Hoenikkers obsession with turtles.
 
This may settle things for those who continue to wage the orchestrated litany of lies against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. You know who you are.

This google translated piece from Italian Lawyer Maria Pia Rizzo, Counsel at the Supreme Court and on the Superior Courts, today:

AMANDA KNOX LIKE TORTORA, BUT THIS TIME NO ONE IS OUTRAGED

Adv. Maria Pia Rizzo *
With the filing of the reasons which the Court of Cassation, 28 March 2015, has finally acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito murder of Meredith Kercher, it closes one of the worst pages of court record in recent years. The story has had a media outcry of international dimensions, seeing involved not only the Italian public opinion, but also English, home of the poor victim, and the American, homeland of Knox.
In the background, the city of Perugia, a university center for students of all geographical origin, immediately singled out as an ideal place for feasts and orgies, with all those guys from different countries, some merged in Perugia to study, but also to have fun, in a promiscuity that has long tickled the bellies of the conformists. This is the context. There is, therefore, surprising that the tabloids will have embroidered the plots more grim; moreover, the protagonists were ideal for this kind of operation: on the one hand, the young victim, roommate and friend insignificant, innocent and defenseless of a virago which the beautiful Amanda Knox, the angelic features and morality chat, that in the run did you photographed kissing with her boyfriend at the time, Raffaele Sollecito, a boy from a good family too angelic-looking and, certainly, from the perverse personality.

But if the press can go wild in the most vulgar gossip, It does sell millions of copies in every country of the world, the judiciary can not and must not be carried away by theorems accusers, only because the protagonists of the story have characteristics that tickle the imagination investigators. Amanda is unpleasant. Too beautiful, too free and uninhibited, weigh too intelligent not to have taken part, I wonder why, murder; and Raphael, the angelic blond, is described as a participant in the orgy that would lead to the death of her friend.
I do not understand why this case is causing a wave of popular disdain, as it was for Tortora. Even here we are in the presence not only of a gross miscarriage of justice, but a real action persecution that came to build the evidence table. Tests that were missing or had even been suppressed for the ineptitude of some investigators.
These are the words of the Supreme Court. The trial for the murder of Meredith has had "a process objectively wavering, whose oscillations are, however, also the result of sensational defaillance or 'amnesia' investigative and guilty omission of investigations. As still claims the Supreme Court, was the very unusual media hype and the international repercussions of the affair to harm the search for truth, causing a sudden acceleration of the investigation in the frantic search for the culprits to be delivered to international public opinion. In a state of law, this is the assertion less reassuring that we can read: investigators chased the culprits, have "created monsters", despite the crime scene the only ones, many traces were attributable solely to Rudy Guede, the young Ivorian definitely convicted to 16 years for the murder of British student. The rest was blown away from the examination hearing, until you can tell the supreme court that there was never any evidence of the presence of Amanda and Raffaele to the crime scene.
Basically, the whole course of the investigation would have been spoiled by a carelessness dictated by the desire not to look for the guilty, but to identify precisely the two young people, a priori and apodictically considered as such from the outset, the authors of the crime, in a 'operation that should be banned from the proper use of the tools instructors: you identify the culprit and then looking for evidence.

It is obvious that should be the reverse: they are the evidence leading to the guilty, not guilty to the tests. This is part of a subculture that is not starting from a given reality, but from a theorem which unravels a mass investigation time only to its demonstration, without any assessment of alternative hypotheses, and, as in the present case, not even look for a verification of evidence theorem culprits.

But public opinion, so that pulsated in order to have the monsters beaten with their young lives on the front page, it now seems to have no jolt, even of human compassion for these two guys from the shattered lives. The case is not of interest to anyone. A short article in the crime.

Once again, neither the media nor the people fail to consider how what happened to Amanda and Raffaele can happen to anyone of us, our children, and that this acquittal, after 7 years after the case is even more shocking the fact that the media has filled the newspapers for years.
Why should an innocent man in prison do immensely more noise than an unsolved murder; because an innocent man in prison, when, as the spread Court of legitimacy, the evidence against him have been made without any respect for the legal science and truth, just to please the international media hype, is comparable to the same victim of ' murder. And this, in a state of law, should be unbearable for the conscience of all.
* Counsel at the Supreme Court and on the Superior Courts
(15 September 2015)

http://www.thechronicle.it/amanda-knox/
 
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Bill I'll confess I at most glance at your Mach attacks but you seem to have a meme that the Italians don't care about the case or worry that perhaps the kids got off. This is Google but it would seem some concern exists. Btw, how do you track the fact that Italian newspapers aren't discussing the case in any unfavorable manner?

It looks like you more than glance, given the hide you tried to tear off me.....

So here's another piece, this time from an Italian Lawyer in an outlet called, "The Chronicle: Free from Italy." Yet another piece, this one from lawyer Maria Pia Rizzo (if I am reading this right), a "patrocinante in Cassazione e avanti le Magistrature Superiori," meaning, "counsel at the Supreme Court and on the Superior Courts."

It's from today.......http://www.thechronicle.it/amanda-knox/

Do more than glance, will you.... there is absolutely no mention of Machiavelli's "meme", about a totally confused/contradictory motivations report - Rizzo seems to think that Section 5 of the ISC accomplished what should have been accomplished all along.... so what was your boueff again?

With the filing of the reasons by which the Court of Cassation , 28 March 2015, has finally acquitted Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito murder of Meredith Kercher , it closes one of the worst pages of court record in recent years.​

Basically, the whole course of the investigation would have been spoiled by a carelessness dictated by the desire not to look for the guilty , but to identify precisely the two young people, a priori and apodictically considered as such from the outset, the authors of the crime, in a 'operation that should be banned from the proper use of the tools instructors: you identify the culprit and then you look for the evidence.​

The piece closes not with a Machiavellian-treatise on what "forte sospetto" means, but on how the Italian press, for eight years, can seemingly ignore that innocent people had been in jail, and that that was the real scandal reported upon.

ETA - Ack! Annella beat me too it!
 
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Bill...you point out the pertinent pieces and I sure hope Machiavelli, Vixen and those who lurk here understand just what has been written. I propose we DONT hold our breath!

Brava Maria Pia!!
 
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Incorrect, she claimed the body was found in the wardrobe. Police believed the killers' plan had been to hide the body in the closet.

So, not unnaturally, they were most interested in Amanda's questura outbursts.

A psychic police force. Wow!!
So let me get this straight.
AK forgot that she forgot to put the body inside the wardrobe, but the police knew this and told the prosecution. Mignini, being a bright chap, bought this very credible story and told the Judges.
The brilliant earlier Judges, realising just how brilliant Mignini was, then agreed that AK must be guilty because after all how could she have known that the murderer forgot to put the body inside the wardrobe; because of course how many innocent people on this whole planet knew what didn't happen, BUT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE HAPPENED!!??
In fact I remember at the time of the murder telling my friend that the body was found on top of the cupboard. Do you realise how lucky I am that the police didn't psychically deduce that the body was supposed to be on TOP of the cupboard? I would have been as guilty as sin!! Whew that was close...it could've been me, and fairly and squarely so too.
 
Did you see claim that ALL Italians were against the ISC? don't Mach made that claim either.

YOU made the claim that all the opinion was on the side of the ISC verdict.

What a coincidence that both of you posted at exactly the same time. The scheduler at Marriott will be getting a reaming tomorrow. :p
 
A psychic police force. Wow!!
So let me get this straight.
AK forgot that she forgot to put the body inside the wardrobe, but the police knew this and told the prosecution. Mignini, being a bright chap, bought this very credible story and told the Judges.
The brilliant earlier Judges, realising just how brilliant Mignini was, then agreed that AK must be guilty because after all how could she have known that the murderer forgot to put the body inside the wardrobe; because of course how many innocent people on this whole planet knew what didn't happen, BUT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE HAPPENED!!??
In fact I remember at the time of the murder telling my friend that the body was found on top of the cupboard. Do you realise how lucky I am that the police didn't psychically deduce that the body was supposed to be on TOP of the cupboard? I would have been as guilty as sin!! Whew that was close...it could've been me, and fairly and squarely so too.

The source of Vixen's problem......

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