Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Wow, you are in gotcha mode today. If you cannot parse the non-literal meaning of my claim there's nothing much I can say to convince you.

Machiavelli is trying to play the "judicial fact" card, and he's trying to deal it from the bottom of the deck.

Despite there being almost universal agreement in Italy that the Marasca/Bruno report represents a stunning rebuke to an amnesiac prosecution and inept, perhaps corrupt investigation.....
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At absolute worst, Marasca/Bruno are trying their best to be in harmony with former ISC rulings and judicial facts. However, the Italian press and commentators are almost universal knowing what's going on here. For pete's sake, the union representing the Perugian police are now passing the blame to out-of-control prosecutors. No one that I've read, save Machiavelli here on this service, is even interested in those tidbits Marasca is throwing towards former courts.

Bill you deny being able to check Italian sources just above but you wrote:

Ok, with apologies to Machiavelli....

There's one Italian newssource pedalling the, "they were involved in some unknown way," theory. They must have read Barbie Nadeau's CNN piece where Barbie writes that Knox "testified" that she was in the cottage that night.

Sheesh. Anyway, it's only two days since the release of the Marasca report and there's one Italian news conspiracist.

It would seem from the above you are claiming to know exactly how many Italian sources there are for an opinion.

 

[Grinder]

Imagine my embarrassment when Machiavelli returns with every front page of every Rome/Milan/Naples/Florence/Bologna paper with the story of Marasca/Bruno's treachery on the front page, above the fold.

In Italian!!

I'll owe Grinder an apology. I've already offered to buy coffee, so I can't make it up to him by offering that to assuage his wrath!

Dinner for Mach and coffee for me? What will you offer Anglo? Olives?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, I have to say I'm disappointed. According to you, "everyone knows" that Knox sent a stalker-esque barrage of texts to Kercher on the evening of Halloween. And as such, I'd imagine that it would be astonishingly easy for you to find and post the evidence to support such an assertion. Yet I've been out for a couple of hours while you've been posting here, and there's still nothing about all these "desperate" texts from Knox.

You're surely not going to pretend you never made such a claim and hope it just all goes away are you? I'd be especially disappointed if you were going to adopt that as your position, as it would be indicative of sly dishonesty. So I'm sure you won't do that, will you? You'll either be back with the evidence, or you'll state that in fact no such evidence exists. I look forward to an answer!

OK, soz, I couldn't find the reference in Nick's book,DOUBT, which reads:

At 19:59:39 Amanda texts Meredith. She’s on her way to work at Le Chic. Does she have a costume, does she want to meet up later? It’s Amanda’s first cell phone communication with Meredith in at least two days. Meredith responds at 20:04:53.
“Yes I have one, but I have to go to a friend’s house for dinner. What are your plans?X ”
Amanda responds two minutes later and then her phone is silent for the next few hours. The next time Amanda calls Meredith, exactly 36 hours and 21 seconds later (almost exactly a day and a half later) Meredith won’t answer because she’s dead.

ETA However, the reference does come from a reliable source, for example, John Follain also refers to "a series of texts" from Amanda to Mez, which Mez ignored, but answered at just after 7:00pm, as above.

I expect Nick got the abridged version from a pro-Knox report, to disguise the act of desperate bombardment by Amanda that day.

Whatever, it is clear Mez was avoiding her, despite the blatant begging by Amanda that day, who, as you know, went on to spend Halloween at a loss in her cat costume and nowhere to go.

A sad story, indeed.

 

[acbytesla]

So we should take Mike1711's word for it, "Nick Van Der Leek is a nobody".

I see.

No, mine He's a nobody .

 

[acbytesla]

OK, soz, I couldn't find the reference in Nick's book,DOUBT, which reads:

That's the "barrage of desperate texts"?

 

[Bill Williams]

Dinner for Mach and coffee for me? What will you offer Anglo? Olives?

After all Mach and I have said to one another, he still remains #1 on my list of people I'd like to buy dinner for.... and he gets to choose the wine. Only an Italian man of his alleged snobishness can be trusted with that delicate task.

The one thing I require is that a third-party pour the wine and I get to choose which glass first. I trust Mach with the wine, but little else.

As for all things Anglo.....

And for you it's coffee. Name the time and place. I will wear a yellow carnation.

 

[Vixen]

Hey, I don't know Amanda from Adam. I have no real allegiance to her. Especially if she killed her roommate. I just ask that a case beyond a reasonable doubt is presented.

Vixen's response is to suggest that Amanda was wild and sociopathic because she smoked grass and threw a loud party.

She says I should believe Koko despite the fact that he was proven to be a liar on the stand.
That I accept her false claims that Amanda's shoe print was left at the scene. I'm also to believe that Amanda felt homicidally slighted by Meredith ditching Amanda on Halloween. Her proof? Desperate texts that Amanda sent on Halloween that we are all waiting for. I am to believe that Amanda was selling her body for drugs even though there is no proof of that.

Somehow a Manga comic book and a Facebook comment is her proof that Raffaele is a sociopath.

I repeat Vixen. Prove that Amanda was helping to kill Meredith. And no more speculation.

Logical fallacy to wongly attribute cause; post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Nowhere did I say Amanda was a psychopath because she smoked dope and Raff because he read Manga (btw there is a Manga exhibition at the British Museum ATM). I opined that as there was futile motive for the murder, that pointed to sociopathy. You were puzzling about a lack of meaningful motive, after all.

 

[Vixen]

That's the "barrage of desperate texts"?

So where is the "love you" crap you claimed Mez wrote?

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill you deny being able to check Italian sources just above but you wrote:



It would seem from the above you are claiming to know exactly how many Italian sources there are for an opinion.

It does not seem that way to me, and truly, I am not following you. I'm positive this means something to you..... but I'm now at a loss.

 

[Grinder]

So where is the "love you" crap you claimed Mez wrote?

More importantly where is the example of blood negative DNA positive knife used to stab in a murder?

As for the pointless (DougM where's the post?) debate over text messages, number and content. But if it were to matter it was in Xs and Os. Since there is no evidence of any issues between of any significance, why not stick with evidence of the murder?

When was Meredith killed? Was Koko or Curatolo more reliable?

 

[Grinder]

It does not seem that way to me, and truly, I am not following you. I'm positive this means something to you..... but I'm now at a loss.

Bill you've repeatably stated that you knew what was being written in Italy about the case. Why I don't know. I thought maybe one of your pals or sources was scouring the Italian papers for you or you were just making it up.

It is of interest to me what is being said in Italy and I now feel you've misled me.

ETA -

Yet another Machiavelli lie.

Machiavelli said he does not read news reports. That was in response to him being told that his latest PR-guilt-campaign is totally contradicted by anything written in the Italian language in the Italian press. "I don't read news pieces," or words to that effect.

ETA - those pieces were from police reports - the very same police (I'm guessing) who are this week blaming the prosecutors for the mess created by Mignini almost 8 years ago.

Do you forget what you say in just a few days?

 

[Vixen]

She didn't say "by the wardrobe". She said "IN the wardrobe".
She didn't say Meredith's body....she said "A body".
So AK knew a lot about the murder? But what she "knew" was wrong.
So AK by your reasoning Vixen, proved her ignorance of the murder scene, and therefore her innocence.
Vixen, you do have an open mind after all.

Incorrect, she claimed the body was found in the wardrobe. Police believed the killers' plan had been to hide the body in the closet.

So, not unnaturally, they were most interested in Amanda's questura outbursts.

 

[acbytesla]

Logical fallacy to wongly attribute cause; post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Nowhere did I say Amanda was a psychopath because she smoked dope and Raff because he read Manga (btw there is a Manga exhibition at the British Museum ATM). I opined that as there was futile motive for the murder, that pointed to sociopathy. You were puzzling about a lack of meaningful motive, after all.

But you keep referring to her motive is that she is a sociopath or psychopath. I assumed you had a reason for suggesting that was her motive and the only things you keep posting about is her Marijuana use, her sex life and the noise ticket.

 

[acbytesla]

So where is the "love you" crap you claimed Mez wrote?

No, I said she sent kisses.

 

[Vixen]

But you keep referring to her motive is that she is a sociopath or psychopath. I assumed you had a reason for suggesting that was her motive and the only things you keep posting about is her Marijuana use, her sex life and the noise ticket.

I've told you before to watch your context. I have never mentioned marijuana smoking as a symptom of sociopathy. I merely stated that where you have a borderline criminal sociopath, you will invariably find reckless behaviour in their background, irresponsible drug use (we are not talking about a bunch of students passing around a joint), consorting with shady characters, promiscuous sex (as you know, Amanda put herself in danger of HIV and STI's).

It's for the defence to argue diminished responsibility, but of course they won't as it really would be life in a secure institution if the court gets a whiff of the label "Borderline Criminal Sociopath".

Clear now?

 

[Vixen]

More importantly where is the example of blood negative DNA positive knife used to stab in a murder?

As for the pointless (DougM where's the post?) debate over text messages, number and content. But if it were to matter it was in Xs and Os. Since there is no evidence of any issues between of any significance, why not stick with evidence of the murder?

When was Meredith killed? Was Koko or Curatolo more reliable?

Didn't someone outline the Lundy case as an example?

IMV if someone claims to be an eyewitness to a murder, I don't see how you can refuse to hear their testimony.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill you've repeatably stated that you knew what was being written in Italy about the case. Why I don't know. I thought maybe one of your pals or sources was scouring the Italian papers for you or you were just making it up.
It is of interest to me what is being said in Italy and I now feel you've misled me.

ETA -

Do you forget what you say in just a few days?

I am sorry you feel misled. I truly do not know what to do for you.

I can only repeat: the only reason I claimed to "know what was being written in Italy," is that every time I looked, found an Italian language piece, ran it through either Google Translate or Chrome Translate.....

..... they essentially said the same thing. (It's a lot like me asking 20 random Seattleites if they are Seahawks fans. All 20 say that they are. From that I say, "Everyone in Seattle is a Seahawks fan." You're now saddened that I have, in effect, lied to you! For two reasons. One: you know of some in Seattle who are not fans - Two: surveying 20 people is not good enough in your estimation for me to make that grandiose claim.)

"Bill you've repeatably stated that you knew what was being written in Italy about the case." I have. I have stated that claim, and I have done what is for me a comprehensive survey. Indeed, given that I was running into the same info there remained the possibility I was missing those who were up in arms about the travesty of justice that March 27 was supposed to have represented

I asked Machiavelli if he would mind digging up the counter-narrative anywhere in the Italian language (news, blogs, forums) because I wasn't finding it.

I still do not know what is eating you, or why this is even an issue.

ETA - unless your intent is simply to spank me.... perhaps YOU can have a look and see what you come up with.

 

[Bill Williams]

Didn't someone outline the Lundy case as an example?

IMV if someone claims to be an eyewitness to a murder, I don't see how you can refuse to hear their testimony.

And if a presumed semen stain can be found under a murder victim where there is suspicion of sexual assault, I don't see how you cannot test the stain.

Did you read Judge Massei's reason? That reason alone should get Massei thrown off the bench.

 

[acbytesla]

Incorrect, she claimed the body was found in the wardrobe. Police believed the killers' plan had been to hide the body in the closet.

So, not unnaturally, they were most interested in Amanda's questura outbursts.

Only you would correct Mike when he was correct. Then you suggest that the police thought something that I have never heard. The FACTS are not what the police "thought" was in the mind of the killer but where the body was which is NOT where Amanda said it was but in fact somewhere else. So in fact Amanda DIDN'T have accurate info about the crime scene.

You're not arguing the evidence or the facts of the case but your own incorrect delusions.

 

[acbytesla]

I've told you before to watch your context. I have never mentioned marijuana smoking as a symptom of sociopathy. I merely stated that where you have a borderline criminal sociopath, you will invariably find reckless behaviour in their background, irresponsible drug use (we are not talking about a bunch of students passing around a joint), consorting with shady characters, promiscuous sex (as you know, Amanda put herself in danger of HIV and STI's).

It's for the defence to argue diminished responsibility, but of course they won't as it really would be life in a secure institution if the court gets a whiff of the label "Borderline Criminal Sociopath".

Clear now?

You keep changing tacks like this was a sailing regatta.

So let's try a series of questions.

Do you have any evidence that Amanda is a psychopath or a sociopath? If so, what is it?

Do you have any evidence that Raffaele is a psychopath or a sociopath? If so, what is it?

Do you believe that it is the responsibility of the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of any suspects?

When do you estimate Meredith's time of death and why?

That's a start.