Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Planigale]

How many times do I need to keep posting this:


Quote:
Dr. Stefanoni Genetic Test, SAL report, Dr. Stefanoni slide presentation

4. 7 hairs were black in color. 6 of these were 4 cm long or less, and so likely Guede’s hair. 4 of these were on the duvet and 1 was on the mattress cover, both in Ms. Kercher’s room.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...nce_List#Hairs


If they found 5 hairs in Meredith’s bedroom that Stefanoni testified were “likely Guede’s hairs,” then it can safely be assumed that those 5 hairs were as kinky and obviously as African as the hairs on Guede’s body were.

You probably wouldn’t need to examine those 5 hairs under a microscope to determine that they were African hairs, but since those hairs would have been key evidence in a rape/murder, the Italians would have surely examined those hairs thoroughly before Nov 5th.

Amanda was seen by Detective Rita Ficarra in the waiting room talking to officers from the SCO around 10:30-11pm on Nov 5th.

Ficarra approached Amanda and asked for the names of people who had been to the cottage or that Meredith knew, and they went into a room to make a list.

Amanda told Ficarra about Patrick Lumumba and a South African guy she remembered being in the downstairs apartment [Guede], but she didn’t know his name or phone number. Amanda also gave Ficarra the names of several other men, all dark-skinned men, and since Amanda likely knew many men of all skin shades, Ficarra had obviously asked Amanda a pointed question about the dark-skinned men Amanda knew in Italy.

The police were clearly already focused in on an African suspect by Nov 5th.

So the information given is;
the hairs were black
the hairs were 4cm long or less.

You assume Steffanoni's competency in this matter so deduce they must be kinky and flattened in cross section on microscopy and Steffanoni who failed under microscopy to distinguish starch granules from blood cells was able to confirm the fibres were human hair under a microscope, and confirm 'African' type kinking. You further assume (with no documentation) that a representative number of hairs have been taken from Guede (and the inhabitants of the flat and MK's boyfriend for comparison purposes). That Guede's hair has been documented as being less than 4 cm long. That comparison between the hair samples taken from Guede and the hairs found at the crime scene are similar in length, cross section, colour on direct comparison.

I am not prepared to go for the suspect centric approach. Which is what I think we really have here. We have three suspects and a victim. The only person with short black hair of the four is Guede. Therefore short black hairs are from Guede. This is essentially the argument made about the shoe prints. These are shoe prints with rings, the only shoes with rings are those of Sollecito therefore the prints belong to Sollecito.

 

[Numbers]

So the information given is;
the hairs were black
the hairs were 4cm long or less.

You assume Steffanoni's competency in this matter so deduce they must be kinky and flattened in cross section on microscopy and Steffanoni who failed under microscopy to distinguish starch granules from blood cells was able to confirm the fibres were human hair under a microscope, and confirm 'African' type kinking. You further assume (with no documentation) that a representative number of hairs have been taken from Guede (and the inhabitants of the flat and MK's boyfriend for comparison purposes). That Guede's hair has been documented as being less than 4 cm long. That comparison between the hair samples taken from Guede and the hairs found at the crime scene are similar in length, cross section, colour on direct comparison.

I am not prepared to go for the suspect centric approach. Which is what I think we really have here. We have three suspects and a victim. The only person with short black hair of the four is Guede. Therefore short black hairs are from Guede. This is essentially the argument made about the shoe prints. These are shoe prints with rings, the only shoes with rings are those of Sollecito therefore the prints belong to Sollecito.

Planigale,

Thanks again for your very clear and logical presentation of the issue with the alleged hair evidence.

Stefanoni does not really present evidence that the hair is consistent with any particular population. There are, I suggest, many persons besides those from sub-Saharan Africa whose hair may be black and curly or kinky, including in particular some persons from areas bordering the Mediterranean Sea, such as Italy.

We - or some of us - are assuming that the black hairs allegedly found by the police are curly or kinky but no evidence of that was apparently presented. No microscopic analysis or imaging of the hairs was presented.

 

[christianahannah]

Part of the quote included a long blond hair stretched across the top of the open MK purse and comes from TJMK. That was the claim the last time it came up and I asked you at that time to take another look at the SALs. I looked at the DNA presentation and Stefanoni's testimony again and saw no reference to that or the other parts of the quote that would tend to suggest guilt. I'm not whacking the mole again or looking up the link to the quote. It's a waste of time as far as I am concerned.

Okay. I'm sorry but I don't remember a comment about a long blonde hair or you asking me to take a look another look at the SALs. I'm not questioning we had this conversation but I don't remember it and don't remember reading about a long blonde hair on Meredith's purse. You are definitely not obligated to look up anything and as far as I'm concerned the quote probably wasn't truthful.

All this may be a waste of time but it is interesting. The documents prove and disprove some of the early "facts" of the case and show in much more detail how things progressed. If one is to really advocate for reform it is nice to have all the evidence of the progression of a case - good and bad - in order to know what parts of the process need reforming.

 

[christianahannah]

So the information given is;
the hairs were black
the hairs were 4cm long or less.

You assume Steffanoni's competency in this matter so deduce they must be kinky and flattened in cross section on microscopy and Steffanoni who failed under microscopy to distinguish starch granules from blood cells was able to confirm the fibres were human hair under a microscope, and confirm 'African' type kinking. You further assume (with no documentation) that a representative number of hairs have been taken from Guede (and the inhabitants of the flat and MK's boyfriend for comparison purposes). That Guede's hair has been documented as being less than 4 cm long. That comparison between the hair samples taken from Guede and the hairs found at the crime scene are similar in length, cross section, colour on direct comparison.

I am not prepared to go for the suspect centric approach. Which is what I think we really have here. We have three suspects and a victim. The only person with short black hair of the four is Guede. Therefore short black hairs are from Guede. This is essentially the argument made about the shoe prints. These are shoe prints with rings, the only shoes with rings are those of Sollecito therefore the prints belong to Sollecito.

Stefanoni didn't say the results of the knife were blood did she? I thought she couldn't confirm either way.

I have looked at the various documents Ken Dine has linked and can't find confirmation of any linkage of the hairs to Rudy or to anyone for that matter.

The SAL records do show many hairs and specifics on those hairs and that some were sent for testing but so far I haven't found an official document/report concerning such. Either that document is still waiting to be found or it doesn't exist.

 

[Grinder]

Planigale,

Thanks again for your very clear and logical presentation of the issue with the alleged hair evidence.

Stefanoni does not really present evidence that the hair is consistent with any particular population. There are, I suggest, many persons besides those from sub-Saharan Africa whose hair may be black and curly or kinky, including in particular some persons from areas bordering the Mediterranean Sea, such as Italy.

We - or some of us - are assuming that the black hairs allegedly found by the police are curly or kinky but no evidence of that was apparently presented. No microscopic analysis or imaging of the hairs was presented.

Of course you are correct and it seems a perfect example of trusting the ICSI when it is convenient not to mention the PGP and their Wiki.

While I don't believe that they ever did a proper analysis on the hairs in question it is very possible they found a variety of hairs and fibers and decided early on that some were from a "kinky haired" person and possibly with black heritage. IIRC they had some carpet fibers early on that they thought were hairs.

The most significant error in the assertion for me is the timing. At this point we have no idea when Steffi or one of her minions looked closely at the hair samples and determined they were "head" hairs and from a specific heritage.

The PLE may have thought black man at some early date and there may have been some male visitors that might have fit the bill, for example do we know what Juve looks like?

Okay. I'm sorry but I don't remember a comment about a long blonde hair or you asking me to take a look another look at the SALs. I'm not questioning we had this conversation but I don't remember it and don't remember reading about a long blonde hair on Meredith's purse. You are definitely not obligated to look up anything and as far as I'm concerned the quote probably wasn't truthful.

IIRC there was a conversation about lost evidence and the alleged blond hair was one.

Stefanoni didn't say the results of the knife were blood did she? I thought she couldn't confirm either way.

I have looked at the various documents Ken Dine has linked and can't find confirmation of any linkage of the hairs to Rudy or to anyone for that matter.

The SAL records do show many hairs and specifics on those hairs and that some were sent for testing but so far I haven't found an official document/report concerning such. Either that document is still waiting to be found or it doesn't exist.

I remember the knife testing negative to blood.

Not even the PGP claimed anything but Meredith's hair being matched. From their write-up the "black" hairs were assumed to be Rudi's at some time after he was arrested.

The most interesting "fact" to me is that there were so few "black" hairs found. If Rudi did the crime as most imagine only losing 7 hairs or less seems minimal.

 

[bagels]

How common is hair transfer in a physical altercation? I was very ignorant of the "normal" state of crime scenes before I became interested in this case, so I lack any frame of reference or context. For example the arguments over the luminol footprints were always interesting because it was always about TMB sensitivity and never what seemed an equally important question to me, which is how common are luminol footprints in a location where no crime has ever been committed?

 

[Desert Fox]

I think it is a good point that we cannot trust anything out of the Italian forensic examiners. Don't know if we should assume with just this case or all cases.

Do we actually have enough evidence that Guede should have been convicted "Beyond a reasonable doubt?"

 

[Grinder]

How common is hair transfer in a physical altercation? I was very ignorant of the "normal" state of crime scenes before I became interested in this case, so I lack any frame of reference or context. For example the arguments over the luminol footprints were always interesting because it was always about TMB sensitivity and never what seemed an equally important question to me, which is how common are luminol footprints in a location where no crime has ever been committed?

I don't know either but:
Losing up to 100 hairs a day is normal. But if hair loss runs in your family, you could lose a lot more hair. With this kind of hair loss, you may end up with bald spots if you are a man. If you are a woman, you may find that the hair on the top of your head is slowly thinning.

If we assume equal per hour that would be about 5 an hour. If Rudi were in the cottage for 2 hours then 10 hairs, not considering anything else. If his hair was pulled or he was moving it a lot and fast I would think more would come out.

I would guess that the footprints are not common but that's just because there are a limited number of substances that react with it.

 

[Ken Dine]

So the information given is;
the hairs were black
the hairs were 4cm long or less.

You assume Steffanoni's competency in this matter so deduce they must be kinky and flattened in cross section on microscopy and Steffanoni who failed under microscopy to distinguish starch granules from blood cells was able to confirm the fibres were human hair under a microscope, and confirm 'African' type kinking.

Not at all. Just because Stefanoni had screwed the pooch with her DNA work trying to pin the crime on Raffaele and Amanda doesn't mean that every Italian cop involved in the case was incompetent. The Italians actually did a fairly decent job of tracking down Guede using old fashioned police work, and Stefanoni may have had little to do with that.

You need a microscope to determine the race of some types of hairs, but an African hair is visibly identifiable to the naked eye. Not saying they didn't also use a microscope on the hairs in order to confirm race, only that Stefanoni wouldn't likely be the one to do that, and it wouldn't take long to do that once a CSI found a hair(s) they felt were African at a murder/rape scene.

You further assume (with no documentation) that a representative number of hairs have been taken from Guede (and the inhabitants of the flat and MK's boyfriend for comparison purposes).

RED HERRING! That's not my contention at all!

Comparing found hairs to a suspect's body hairs is not a very good way to link a suspect to a crime (too subjective), and once they had identified Guede they had better methods to do that, such as print analysis and DNA matching, so they probably never did do that type of hair analysis.

The probative value of finding African hairs at the crime scene would have been to quickly alert the police that at least one of their suspects was of African ancestry.

If not the African hairs found in Kercher's bedroom, then what else could have caused the police to focus in on TWO African suspects so quickly?

Grinder said a couple had claimed to have seen a Black man running up the stairs at 10:30 pm, but the police would have shown them a picture of Lumumba, and doubtful they fingered Lumumba, just as they later didn't ID Guede as the guy they saw running.

The police had the CCTV footage, but since the police were looking for confirmation of Lumumba, who looks nothing like Guede, the CCTV footage wouldn't have been helpful until after their "CASE CLOSED" news conference held on Nov 6th.

Within a day or two of their "CASE CLOSED" news conference forensics started coming back with nothing pointing at Lumumba, so the police obviously had a big OOOPS! moment as they realized they had the wrong African guy, so by Nov 10th the police announced they were looking for a 4th suspect, a "North African musician."

Not exactly sure how the police finally arrived at their identification of the 4th suspect as a "North African musician" (likely, around Nov 8th). Probably, a lot of things:

1 – On Nov 5th Amanda told Rita Ficarra she had seen an African guy hanging out with the guys downstairs. Interestingly, all they guys Amanda mentioned that night to Ficarra had dark skin, so Ficarra must have pointedly told Amanda that they were only interested in darker skinned guys Amanda may have seen around Meredith.

2 – The guys downstairs mentioned Guede, but didn't know his actual name.

3 – The CCTV footage may have now been helpful, since before the police were looking for Lumumba on that footage, but once Lumumba was excluded and attention shifted to Guede, the police likely then quickly found images on the CCTV footage comparable with Guede's description.

This case, with the initial focus on Lumumba and then the quick shift over to Guede, just doesn't make any sense unless the police had found African hairs at the crime scene.

That Guede's hair has been documented as being less than 4 cm long. That comparison between the hair samples taken from Guede and the hairs found at the crime scene are similar in length, cross section, colour on direct comparison.

AGAIN, that the police found African hairs at the crime scene is important in identifying one of the perps as an African male, and nothing more.

I am not prepared to go for the suspect centric approach. Which is what I think we really have here.

How can an initial determination that one of their suspects is likely of African ancestry have to do with being suspect centric?

Ya, what followed when they prematurely focused in on Amanda, and then went after Lumumba since he was the only African man the police knew Amanda had a relationship with, all that was suspect centric tunnel-vision.

We have three suspects and a victim. The only person with short black [AFRICAN] hair of the four is Guede. Therefore short black [AFRICAN] hairs are from Guede.

There, fixed it for ya! (By adding BOLD text)

Your statement is a little confused by starting with 3 suspects and then going to 4 suspects. I forgive you since the police did jump around with at times 3 suspects and then 4 suspects and then 3 suspects again. Just saying your statement could have been written more clearly.

This is essentially the argument made about the shoe prints. These are shoe prints with rings, the only shoes with rings are those of Sollecito therefore the prints belong to Sollecito.

I realize that I'm bringing new info to the table after many of you have been discussing this case for years, so some of you are digging in your heels a tad.

It's OK to be skeptical, but the first few weeks of this case just doesn't make any sense unless the police had found African hairs at the crime scene, and had identified them as such early on.

The police were watching Amanda as she bumped into Lumumba, I think on Nov 4th, as they stopped and chatted for a few minutes. By Nov 4th Amanda's phone had already been tapped and I wouldn't be surprised if Lumumba's phone was also tapped by then.

On Nov 5th Raffaele had worn his Nikes with soles very similar (but not identical) with the Nike soles which tracked Meredith's blood at the crime scene. Because of those soles, the police felt Raffaele was involved, and then they managed to get Amanda to say something they claim implicated Lumumba, who was the African they needed.

CASE CLOSED! If it wasn't for Raffaele's Nikes, and the African hairs which reinforced their suspicion of Amanda and Lumumba, do you really feel that the police would have been confident enough to have announced a "CASE CLOSED!" at their news conference on Nov 6th?

On Nov 6th the police didn't have any CCTV footage implicating Lumumba. The couple who saw a Black man on the stairs at 10:30 pm surely didn't ID Lumumba. The police had no forensics implicating Lumumba on Nov 6th.

No one had ever seen Lumumba at the cottage. So, why were the police so confidant on Nov 6th?

Amanda's confused statements from her all-night interrogation? REALLY?

Other than Amanda's confused statements sweated out of her in the wee- hours of Nov 6th, TWO things had convinced the cops they had closed the case:

Raffaele's shoes and the African hairs found in Meredith's bedroom.

Nothing else makes any sense!

 

[Ken Dine]

Planigale,

Thanks again for your very clear and logical presentation of the issue with the alleged hair evidence.

Stefanoni does not really present evidence that the hair is consistent with any particular population. There are, I suggest, many persons besides those from sub-Saharan Africa whose hair may be black and curly or kinky, including in particular some persons from areas bordering the Mediterranean Sea, such as Italy.

We - or some of us - are assuming that the black hairs allegedly found by the police are curly or kinky but no evidence of that was apparently presented. No microscopic analysis or imaging of the hairs was presented.

Guede has kinky African hair, not curly hair. Stefanoni testified the 5 hairs they found at the crime scene were probably Guede's hairs, so those 5 hairs had to have been kinky in nature.

The police would have surely photographed those hairs before collecting them, and while there were no photographs of those 5 hairs in Stefanoni's slide show presentation during the Massei trial, that's easily explained by the fact that Guede had already been convicted and only Raffaele and Amanda were on trial at that point.

 

[RoseMontague]

I have looked at the various documents Ken Dine has linked and can't find confirmation of any linkage of the hairs to Rudy or to anyone for that matter.

The SAL records do show many hairs and specifics on those hairs and that some were sent for testing but so far I haven't found an official document/report concerning such. Either that document is still waiting to be found or it doesn't exist.

Exactly.

 

[Ken Dine]

I think it is a good point that we cannot trust anything out of the Italian forensic examiners. Don't know if we should assume with just this case or all cases.

Do we actually have enough evidence that Guede should have been convicted "Beyond a reasonable doubt?"

In choosing a 'Fast-track' trial Guede basically made what amounts to a plea deal in the US. Of course, they have found many instances of innocent people accepting a guilty plea here for a variety of reasons, such as bogus forensics stacked against them, or faulty eye-witnesses set to testify against them, or the innocent person may even have a screw loose.

Nevertheless, I personally feel Guede is probably guilty, but who can be 100% certain about such things?

Someone mentioned a case a few days ago where some dope molester actually filmed himself raping a toddler, so that case seems 100% open & shut, so sometimes you can get up to a 100% certainty of guilt.

 

[carbonjam72]

In choosing a 'Fast-track' trial Guede basically made what amounts to a plea deal in the US. Of course, they have found many instances of innocent people accepting a guilty plea here for a variety of reasons, such as bogus forensics stacked against them, or faulty eye-witnesses set to testify against them, or the innocent person may even have a screw loose.

Nevertheless, I personally feel Guede is probably guilty, but who can be 100% certain about such things?

Someone mentioned a case a few days ago where some dope molester actually filmed himself raping a toddler, so that case seems 100% open & shut, so sometimes you can get up to a 100% certainty of guilt.

Actually this isn't quite accurate. What 'fast track' means is that the defendant agrees to accept that there won't be any additional discovery, and the prosecution doesn't get to produce any more evidence for the case file. The result is the trial moves much more quickly, and in exchange, any sentence receives typically a 1/3rd reduction in time, or a reduction in category for 'Life' sentences.

Mach could probably do a better job explaining this, but as an example, in the Narducci trail case against the pharmacist Calamandrei in Florence, the defendant took a 'fast track' trial, on the basis that the evidence the prosecution had was a load of silly nonsense, and the defense won the case.

So no, a fast track trial option is in no way the equivalent of a plea deal in the US where a reduction in sentence is offered in exchange for an admission of guilt. Accepting a fast track trial is not an admission of guilt, but rather giving up certain rights of defense like additional discovery, IIUC.

 

[Ken Dine]

In choosing a 'Fast-track' trial Guede basically made what amounts to a plea deal in the US. Of course, they have found many instances of innocent people accepting a guilty plea here for a variety of reasons, such as bogus forensics stacked against them, or faulty eye-witnesses set to testify against them, or the innocent person may even have a screw loose.

Actually this isn't quite accurate. What 'fast track' means is that the defendant agrees to accept that there won't be nay additional discovery, and the prosecution doesn't get to produce any more evidence for the case file. The result is the trial moves much more quickly, and in exchange, any sentence receives typically a 1/3rd reduction in time, or a reduction in category for 'Life' sentences.

Mach could probably do a better job explaining this, but as an example, in the Narducci trail case against the pharmacist Calamandrei in Florence, the defendant took a 'fast track' trial, on the basis that the evidence the prosecution had was a load of silly nonsense, and the defense won the case.

So no, a fast track trial option is in no way the equivalent of a plea deal in the US where a reduction in sentence is offered in exchange for an admission of guilt. Accepting to a fast track trial is not an admission of guilt, but rather giving up certain rights of defense like additional discovery, IIUC.

Ahh! More nit-picking ...get behind Grinder!


I didn't say an Italian Fast-Track trial was "equivalent of a plea deal in the US." I said a 'Fast-track' trial such as Guede's abbreviated Italian trial "amounts to a plea deal in the US."

Clearly, I wasn't saying these two court processes were exactly the same, only that an Italian fast track trial option is closer to a plea deal here than anything else in the US justice system.

Granted, you gave an example of a defendant in an Italian fast track trial who actually prevailed and was found innocent; nevertheless, in America the plea-bargain system is still closest to that Italian abbreviated trial system.

BTW - in an American plea-bargain system while the court can't rule the defendant INNOCENT, even so, as a condition of the plea-deal the US court may let the defendant off with time served, or community service, or some other lesser penalty.

My point wasn't meant to directly compare an American trial procedure with an Italian trial procedure since that would be impossible to do!

Rather, I was just pointing out that in both systems INNOCENT defendants can often opt for procedures guaranteeing a lesser penalty rather than risking a greater penalty after enduring a full trial on the merits.

 

[Numbers]

Guede has kinky African hair, not curly hair. Stefanoni testified the 5 hairs they found at the crime scene were probably Guede's hairs, so those 5 hairs had to have been kinky in nature.

The police would have surely photographed those hairs before collecting them, and while there were no photographs of those 5 hairs in Stefanoni's slide show presentation during the Massei trial, that's easily explained by the fact that Guede had already been convicted and only Raffaele and Amanda were on trial at that point.

I can't say that what you are proposing or speculating on is not possible.

However, in the arrest warrant for Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Patrick Lumumba, there is no mention of any hair evidence in the justification (the information supposedly providing the basis for the "reasonable suspicion" required for an arrest).

The evidence justifying Lumumba's arrest was solely Amanda's statements from the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation and an apparently truncated version of her text message to Lumumba, and the fact that Lumumba had sent her a text message, all on Nov. 1, 2007 apparently prior to the murder of Meredith. There is no mention of any hair attributed to an African at all.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/case-files-reports/

 

[Grinder]

If anyone cares "22:00-22:30 Time approximate: Alessandra Formica and boyfriend, Lucio Minciotti, descended the stairs next to Piazza Grimana that lead to via San Antonio where their car is parked. Claims a black man [who could have been African or Indian] walking with his head down bumped into her boyfriend and continued walking in a hurry as if nothing had happened. Original police statement given to Monica Napoleoni on November 12, 2007 said “While we were going down the steps, my boyfriend was violently bumped into by a man of color, who was running very fast towards via Pinturicchio.” Minciotti told her what they’d witnessed wasn’t important and not to go the police. Formica also testifies seeing a broken down car at the car park exit and the owner standing beside it talking on a cellphone. Formica didn’t notice or look at the cottage."

I don't know how early she let the police know, but her formal interview was on the twelfth.

 

[Numbers]

According to VQA Giobbi's testimony, the reasons Amanda Knox became a suspect were:

1. The police decided the beak-in was staged.
2. Therefore, the police decided they should consider all those close to Meredith Kercher, and their alibis, as potential suspects.
3. Amanda Knox had the weakest alibi, in the opinion of police. Only Raffaele Sollecito supported her not being at the crime scene at the relevant time.
4. Behavioral analysis by Giobbi suggested to him that Amanda was suspect. For example, when she put on shoe covers in his presence, he perceived that she wiggled her hips.
5. Behavioral analysis by Giobbi also suggested to him that Raffaele was a suspect, because of the attention he paid to Amanda, even accompanying her to the police station.
6. Therefore, according to Giobbi, he had ordered that both be brought in for "special" ("simultaneous") questioning at (about) the same time, during which they (allegedly) indicated their involvement.

Based on this type of police reasoning, Patrick Lumumba became a suspect, I propose, because of the texts he and Amanda exchanged on Nov. 1, prior to the time of Meredith's murder. By making Lumumba a suspect, the police and prosecution eliminated the credibility of any statement by Lumumba that the texts were of innocent basis - that is, simply saying that Amanda didn't need to come to work.

 

[Grinder]

I can't say that what you are proposing or speculating on is not possible.

However, in the arrest warrant for Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Patrick Lumumba, there is no mention of any hair evidence in the justification (the information supposedly providing the basis for the "reasonable suspicion" required for an arrest).

The evidence justifying Lumumba's arrest was solely Amanda's statements from the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation and an apparently truncated version of her text message to Lumumba, and the fact that Lumumba had sent her a text message, all on Nov. 1, 2007 apparently prior to the murder of Meredith. There is no mention of any hair attributed to an African at all.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/case-files-reports/

The hairs were NEVER matched to anyone. As I said before only some of Meredith's hair were matched. They had fibers and lots of hair and 400 other pieces of evidence. The boys downstairs and otehrs could have produced the kinky hairs and 6 hairs just isn't very many. Meredith could have picked them up from Shakey or Patrick and since we've been informed that Meredith was a slob maybe those hairs had been there for weeks.

If they did think there were a few hairs that may have come from someone with black ancestry that might have focused them a little.

We have no facts that back the assertion but if they had been looking for a black man, good on them. I have yet to see any example of "good old police work" by the ILE.

 

[Ken Dine]

I can't say that what you are proposing or speculating on is not possible.

However, in the arrest warrant for Amanda Knox, Raffaele Sollecito, and Patrick Lumumba, there is no mention of any hair evidence in the justification (the information supposedly providing the basis for the "reasonable suspicion" required for an arrest).

The evidence justifying Lumumba's arrest was solely Amanda's statements from the Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation and an apparently truncated version of her text message to Lumumba, and the fact that Lumumba had sent her a text message, all on Nov. 1, 2007 apparently prior to the murder of Meredith. There is no mention of any hair attributed to an African at all.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/case-files-reports/

I realize that Mignini didn't use any found hairs at the crime scene as grounds for arresting Amanda, Raffaele & Lumumba, nor for probable cause for keeping Amanda, Raffaele & Lumumba in jail pending trial.

Mignini presented what evidence he felt would serve his purposes to accomplish those goals, and it's now a known fact that everything Mignini had alleged as grounds for their arrest and imprisonment (pending trial), was all bogus nonsense.

The fact that Mignini never mentioned any hairs is certainly not proof that no hairs were found at the crime scene, and Stefanoni's slide presentation offered up during the Massei trial certainly proves that the Italian cops had found both hairs and fibers at the crime scene, and some of those hairs were compatible with Guede.

Hairs found at the crime scene from the perp certainly can be expected, especially considering the circumstances of this particular crime, so why are so many of the regulars at this forum in dithers about this FACT?

Do you seriously contend that the triumphant "CASE CLOSED" police media event of Nov 6th was based solely upon Amanda's wee-hour statements from her Nov. 5/6, 2007 interrogation, as well as one vague text message to Lumumba on the night of Nov 1st?

REALLY?

I am utterly amazed that the regulars in this forum are digging in their heels to this extent to dispute the obvious. Is the problem the messenger? Do some soul searching!

Ken

 

[Ken Dine]

If anyone cares "22:00-22:30 Time approximate: Alessandra Formica and boyfriend, Lucio Minciotti, descended the stairs next to Piazza Grimana that lead to via San Antonio where their car is parked. Claims a black man [who could have been African or Indian] walking with his head down bumped into her boyfriend and continued walking in a hurry as if nothing had happened. Original police statement given to Monica Napoleoni on November 12, 2007 said “While we were going down the steps, my boyfriend was violently bumped into by a man of color, who was running very fast towards via Pinturicchio.” Minciotti told her what they’d witnessed wasn’t important and not to go the police. Formica also testifies seeing a broken down car at the car park exit and the owner standing beside it talking on a cellphone. Formica didn’t notice or look at the cottage."

I don't know how early she let the police know, but her formal interview was on the twelfth.

At first you had claimed they were certain it happened at 10:30 pm based upon their dinner receipt, and now it's a range as early as 10:00 pm, which means it is within reason of the time Guede left the cottage.

There's also the problem that a visibly bloody Guede likely wouldn't have climbed those stairs to enter into the heart of town.

In any event, while their account may have reinforced early police theories that an African suspect was involved, the cops would have likely shown them pictures of Lumumba around Nov 6th (or shortly thereafter), and if the couple couldn't finger Lumumba, then their "Black Man Running" account is just a side note since it clearly didn't cause the cops to key in on any particular African suspects.