Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[NancyS]

Nina Burleigh seems to have taken the most interest in Rudy Guede, and investigated his backgrounds, family and friends.

Her book, "Fatal Gift of Beauty" provided a lot of this info, as her recent article ion newsweek also touches on it.

Rudy waking up as, "The dog" and the "The professor", I can't get past that.

I've read Burleigh's book and found the chapter on Guede really interesting - I'd definitely be interested to know whether there was any further evidence that he was suffering from a dissociative disorder.

 

[Kauffer]

No I am not implying or suggesting anything. I don't know if Amanda ever brought anyone to the cottage for sex or had sex with anyone at the cottage or if Meredith ever complained about such.

Concerning who Amanda brought to the cottage it is included in Amanda's writings, her statements, testimony (I think in testimony) and her statements to police along with statements from Meredith's friend.

When I first looked at this case I remember reading all these allegations about how Ms Kercher disapproved of Ms Knox, her level of cleanliness, her toilet bag, her male friends etc etc - there were so many complaints, it seemed. So I was puzzled, because in the desperate search for a motive for the criminal act of murder, it seemed the only 'evidence' being cited by the prosecution side went, if you believed it, to show only that the murder victim had a motive to kill the alleged murderer and not the other way round - one of the early elements of doubt, for me, about the validity of the case.

Other than an ordinary, regular, anger absent conversation about the use of a toilet brush, I doubt there was anything even slightly abrasive between the two of them. I think that John Kercher probably went to some trouble to misrepresent the relationship between Ms Knox and his daughter, in his book - which is really two books; an 80 page biography of his daughter and another 200 or so pages about his obsession with Amanda Knox. Tragic.

 

[lonepinealex]

For what purpose do you believe Amanda brought home strange men to the cottage? Are you implying, or are you suggesting she brought even one of them home for sex? If so, then which?

I think this is a point of confusion. Among Kercher's British friends, this might never have been done. Among Amanda's Seattle community, perhaps not so striking.

It's not even remotely unusual behaviour for young British women either. By all accounts, Meredith was a party girl, so I find it very hard to believe she was some kind of prude.

Of course, the obvious sexual element to the murder forces Mignini to come up with an implausible motivation for Amanda.

 

[kwill]

From testimony given Meredith was uncomfortable with who Amanda was bringing to the cottage, both Amanda and Raffaele admitted to having smoked at least twice that afternoon/evening (accounting for their foggy memory of that evening) and as for the attraction of Raffaele and Rudy to Amanda they were both attracted to her. He took those elements that were given at trial and wove them into an account of what might have happened.

That is exactly the point. The threads you mention couldn't be woven together without Mignini's own bizarre imagination. You say it yourself.

• Meredith was uncomfortable. (Even if this were true, there was no testimony at all that Amanda knew it.) Mignini added all the speculation about how Amanda knew this and resented it to the point of murder. That's him inventing a persona for her as a vicious, jealous girl.
  
• Amanda and Raffaele smoked pot. As did everyone else who lived in that house, including Meredith herself. But for Mignini it meant something sinister about the characters of the defendants and nothing whatsoever about the characters of anyone else. Again, Mignini made up his conclusions out of nothing.
  
• Raffaele and Rudy were both attracted to Amanda. This is where Mignini's imagination really distorts everything. Amanda was attractive. Therefore? She had control over them to the point of being able to force them to rape and torture an innocent girl.

That's why I question both Mignini's character and his mental health. He took those threads and added his own completely bizarre and unjust spin to create a fabric that had nothing to do with reality.

 

[NancyS]

It's not even remotely unusual behaviour for young British women either. By all accounts, Meredith was a party girl, so I find it very hard to believe she was some kind of prude.

Of course, the obvious sexual element to the murder forces Mignini to come up with an implausible motivation for Amanda.

It is totally normal - by all accounts Meredith was frequently stumbling home in the early hours of the morning, after some fairly heavy drinking. I can't imagine her being that outraged or worried about her safety, if Amanda occassionally brought a friend home. It also sounds as if the boys that lived downstairs had a fairly open door policy for people turning up to smoke cannabis - and Meredith was in a sort of relationship with one of them, which would suggest she wasn't that disapproving. It's fairly typical of most student houses that the occasional colourful character will traipse through - and I've not read anything that would suggest that Meredith was anything but a fairly laid back and normal student.

 

[acbytesla]

Every case that has been reversed in New Zealand has been the result of dedicated work by unpaid volunteers, opposed every step of the way by the government the police and the judiciary.

Arthur Thomas. *
David Dougherty.
Peter Ellis.
Teina Pora.
Mark Lundy.

* Prime minister Muldoon did finally declare a pardon after an Australian commitee proved the planting of evidence by two police detectives.

I hope that a few of them were the result of someone in the government. The Innocence Project has been responsible for helping to overturn hundreds of wrongful convictions in the US. They are working on many more. Almost all of which were opposed by the local authorities despite overwhelming proof of innocence.

 

[Bill Williams]

That is exactly the point. The threads you mention couldn't be woven together without Mignini's own bizarre imagination. You say it yourself.

• Meredith was uncomfortable. (Even if this were true, there was no testimony at all that Amanda knew it.) Mignini added all the speculation about how Amanda knew this and resented it to the point of murder. That's him inventing a persona for her as a vicious, jealous girl.
  
• Amanda and Raffaele smoked pot. As did everyone else who lived in that house, including Meredith herself. But for Mignini it meant something sinister about the characters of the defendants and nothing whatsoever about the characters of anyone else. Again, Mignini made up his conclusions out of nothing.
  
• Raffaele and Rudy were both attracted to Amanda. This is where Mignini's imagination really distorts everything. Amanda was attractive. Therefore? She had control over them to the point of being able to force them to rape and torture an innocent girl.

That's why I question both Mignini's character and his mental health. He took those threads and added his own completely bizarre and unjust spin to create a fabric that had nothing to do with reality.

I can't believe I am about to say something in defence of Mignini, but here it goes.....

What you say above is not necessarily the result of character and/or mental health. Whereas he's obviously got a fertile, and somewhat pornographic imagination.....

...... weaving those threads and adding his own completely bizarre and unjust spin has another name: it's called suspect-centric prosecution. He takes what's normative for the context (as is pointed out by the Winterbottom film) and applies it only to the suspect.

This is a common mistake in police work, and good police work like crazy to avoid these sorts of rookie mistakes. (Not that Mignini is a rookie, but it is also true that Mignini has a track record as a prosecutor of holding on to bizarre theories well past their due date.)

The basic mistake Mignini made is well known in the wrongful conviction world - a Canadian study into the 1/2-dozen most high profile Canadian wrongful convictions (some even upheld at appeal!!) cite "suspect-centric" investigations, and subsequent judicial myopia as all too common.

 

[christianahannah]

Yeah, but aren't you referring mostly to Juve? The guy who worked with Amanda and walked her home sometimes and of whom it appeared everyone, including Amanda, thought was a little weird? There was no sexual component involving Juve, he was just considered strange.

That is one name given. She gives the name Spyros (once) and Daniel (twice) who Amanda says she brought to the cottage.

Amanda also gives other names who may have had contact with Meredith and the cottage; a PJ who she says lived close to the cottage and may have visited the cottage several times (this is unclear to me whether he did or may have), Ardak, Shaky and Patrick. These are the names she has in her phone. She also gives the police information on a South African who played basketball and would have visited the cottage downstairs.

 

[Diocletus]

That is one name given. She gives the name Spyros (once) and Daniel (twice) who Amanda says she brought to the cottage.

Amanda also gives other names who may have had contact with Meredith and the cottage; a PJ who she says lived close to the cottage and may have visited the cottage several times (this is unclear to me whether he did or may have), Ardak, Shaky and Patrick. These are the names she has in her phone. She also gives the police information on a South African who played basketball and would have visited the cottage downstairs.

Not nearly as bad as the murderous trash brought to the cottage by Meredith's boyfriend and his chums.

 

[NancyS]

That is one name given. She gives the name Spyros (once) and Daniel (twice) who Amanda says she brought to the cottage.

Amanda also gives other names who may have had contact with Meredith and the cottage; a PJ who she says lived close to the cottage and may have visited the cottage several times (this is unclear to me whether he did or may have), Ardak, Shaky and Patrick. These are the names she has in her phone. She also gives the police information on a South African who played basketball and would have visited the cottage downstairs.

And this is evidence of what exactly? Is it not very normal for Amanda to have friends or people's phone numbers. This is a very good example of slut-shaming. Amanda is known to have some male acquaintances and this is used to somehow imply that there must be more to this - that nice girls don't talk to boys, don't have boys numbers in their phone and definitely don't invite them home as that means they must want sex, right?

 

[Numbers]

Copy, with addition, of my post on IIP forum.

The CSC has considerable authority to render verdicts simultaneously with annulments. The final CSC verdict may be opposite to the verdict from the lower court that is being annulled.

The Italian legal basis for this is codified in CPP Articles 620 Annulment without referal and 621 Effects of the annulment without referral. CPP Art. 620 consists of one paragraph with 10 separate clauses, each providing for a different situation. Art. 621 gives the procedure to be followed generally after each one of these possible situations, but leaving considerable flexibility to the CSC.

Here are excerpts from CPP Art. 620 and 621 that appear to be potentially relevant to this case:

CPP Article 620
1. In addition to the cases specifically provided for by the law, the CSC shall deliver a judgment of annulment without referral:
a) ....if the prosecution should not have been started or continued;
d) if the appealed decision is not allowed by law;
h) if there is a contradiction between the appealed judgment or order and a previous judgment or order concerning the same person and the same subject, delivered by the same or another criminal judge;
l) in any other case in which the CSC believes the referral is superfluous or may proceed to the determination of the sentence or take the necessary decisions.

CPP Article 621
1. In the case provided for in Article 620, paragraph 1....in letter l), the CSC shall proceed to the determination of the sentence or give the necessary instructions.

In summary, Italian procedural criminal law gives the CSC the authority to do almost anything, including annul a judgment under appeal and pronounce a different sentence. Annulment without referral in Italy is not necessarily the same as a mistrial in the US.

Of course, there is no way to reasonably predict the judgment that the CSC will give in this case after the hearing on March 25. There may be four choices: CSC could 1) finalize the Nencini court verdict of guilty, 2) annul that verdict without referral and install a different verdict, 3) transfer the case to a United Sections panel for a more comprehensive review, or 4) annul all or some of the verdict with referral to a new 2nd level court trial. The CSC may or may not treat Amanda and Raffaele differently in its judgment. The CSC may or may not be arbitrary in its judgment, although arbitrary judgments are a violation of Convention Article 6, the right to a fair trial.

I should add the Nencini judgment is arbitrary, and if the CSC upholds it, they will be introducing a grounds for application to ECHR on arbitrariness of judgment (such as "manifestly unreasoned"). There are other ECHR issues with the case as well, as is well known (to those that objectively follow the case, not necessarily to any journalists).

 

[acbytesla]

.
I am confident that if Amanda and Meredith's fates were reversed, and Mignini was railroading Meredith with one of his sex crime fantasies, then most of the same people now defending Amanda and Raffaele would be defending Meredith, and most of the same people attacking Amanda now would be attacking Meredith.

Cody
.

I think you are 100 percent correct on this guess. I think there are people who have real empathy for others and people who see the world through a dark sinister cloud .

 

[Numbers]

And this is evidence of what exactly? Is it not very normal for Amanda to have friends or people's phone numbers. This is a very good example of slut-shaming. Amanda is known to have some male acquaintances and this is used to somehow imply that there must be more to this - that nice girls don't talk to boys, don't have boys numbers in their phone and definitely don't invite them home as that means they must want sex, right?

It would be surprising if Meredith's phone did not also have some phone numbers of males.

The entire treatment of this issue of sexual behavior by the prosecution and courts is an example of outrageous misogyny.

 

[acbytesla]

It would be surprising if Meredith's phone did not also have some phone numbers of males.

The entire treatment of this issue of sexual behavior by the prosecution and courts is an example of outrageous misogyny.

No doubt. This is the kind of behavior that makes my blood boil. I love sex. So? Why shouldn't a woman? Personally I hope the woman I'm sharing that experience with enjoys it as much as I do. I hate the idea that she might be haunted by the prudish morons who push the idea that enjoying sex makes them dirty or perverted.

 

[Dan O.]

Burglary while carrying and brandishing a knife, including burglary through second story windows with use of a rock to test if anyone is home.

This one is not supported by the evidence. The entry at the Lawyers office requires a stealth entry because there would be multiple residences at home in the other apartments surrounding the court yard, including Sophie Puton.

The rock at the lawyers office was probably used as a tool to break the window but this would have been muffled by a jacket or sweetshirt. The rock was found outside on the balcony.

 

[Dan O.]

Wasn't it Amanda who saw Laura's boyfriend and wrote about it? Do you know if Meredith knew of this encounter?

You'll have to fill me in on the pizza event.

From what we know about Meredith, she is usually too hung over and sleeping till noon to be aware of the morning events. But the girls all talked about this since Amanda laughed when she saw how small the boy was.

The pizza event was in Filomena's testimony. Meredith came home but declined the pizza as she was headed out to join her friends. The landlord complained the the food was still in the oven years later when the cottage was finally returned.

 

[Dan O.]

How do we know this? Because if its true, I would say this bozo got Meredith killed.

It's all circumstantial with no proof. The kid is referred to as a handyman, he fixed the washing machine, he spent the night in mid October. It was also mid October when the door stopped working properly. The latch was intentionally jammed with a wedge of wood.

 

[christianahannah]

And this is evidence of what exactly? Is it not very normal for Amanda to have friends or people's phone numbers. This is a very good example of slut-shaming. Amanda is known to have some male acquaintances and this is used to somehow imply that there must be more to this - that nice girls don't talk to boys, don't have boys numbers in their phone and definitely don't invite them home as that means they must want sex, right?

It was evidence that Amanda herself gave. Amanda was trying to help the police in thinking of guys (primarily) who might have had contact with Meredith or the cottage. And this was probably as a result of Sophie Purton's statement about strange fellows.

I don't think this was an example of slut-shaming. How do you see it as that?

 

[Desert Fox]

This one is not supported by the evidence. The entry at the Lawyers office requires a stealth entry because there would be multiple residences at home in the other apartments surrounding the court yard, including Sophie Puton.

The rock at the lawyers office was probably used as a tool to break the window but this would have been muffled by a jacket or sweetshirt. The rock was found outside on the balcony.

This is part of the difference between the pro guilt side and pro innocent.
As far as I can tell, the pro innocence side are far more willing to tell others on their side when they think they are wrong.

 

[Desert Fox]

In a crime like this, one's sex life will be brought up... whether it's Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, or Amanda Marie Knox.

And David Camm. . . . .Often such things are reasons for overturning convictions on appeal.