Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli,

Anglo's point about the destruction of the clasp is well taken, and the destruction itself should have a strongly negative impact on Stefanoni's credibility. I am not sure how many times I have to say that the strength of the DNA profile in RFU cannot be used to draw inferences. For one thing, there is no way to standardize how much biological material is collected. The difference between Rudy vs. Raffaele and Amanda is that he had never been to the flat; therefore, there are no innocent explanations for his DNA. With respect to Amanda's DNA there are many, and we also know that Raffaele (although he did not live there) did do things that would be expected to deposit DNA (Nencini's discussion of the cigarette butt is embarrassingly stupid in this regard). The mixed traces in the bathroom are the result of two factors, cohabitation and bad collection procedures by the FP. The evidence from Filomena's bedroom is compromised by the foot traffic that occurred in the intervening weeks. I have no idea what "unjustified Knox blood" means.

.... this is not to mention that Filomena herself was in her own room at least twice following the murder.... once she was allowed to "rummaged" through her room pre-discovery of Meredith to see if anything was missing in a suspected theft, but then (incredibly) she went into her room after the discovery to retrieve her laptop.

The pro-guilt lobby assume sterile conditions for Scientific Police to waltz in, meaning that what they discover must have been the result of the muder.

 

[Dan O.]

Just a moment. If I remember correctly he doesn't speak about fetching another towel in his Skype conversation.

Are you actually remembering this now?
The second towel is a clarification he adds in the German diary a few days later.

Perhaps you could clarify something: Did Rudy write that diary before or after his lawyer visited him in Germany? Was Rudy's lawyer passing secrets of the police investigation to Rudy this early? How did the Lawyer get this information?

 

[Bill Williams]

Yikes. Are you being investigated for these remarks?

If you are a suspect in a crime, then you should at least be afforded the rights under Italian law that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were denied. Denying them their rights does not justify withholding them from you.

I apologize if there is an investigation of your postings and defamations.

What are you making up now? You really can't help delusional comments.

Machiavelli - I may have got it wrong, and English is your second language, and you do a fantastic job with it - but misunderstandings are sure to set in.... but then what did you mean by this?

"But you perfectly know this cannot be a matter of forum discussion, since this is matter of investigation."​

I was asking you to comment if you thought that President of the Court of Appeals, De Nunzio, was also a criminal. You said you could (or would) not comment because this is a "matter of investigation". You did not explain what the "this" was, meaning you did not explain what it was which was under investigation..... and because of such, you were refraining from comment.

You have commented copiously when Giuliano Mignini was under investigation for the Narducci debacle, so I assumed this investigation must be about you.

If so, then you are accorded rights under Italian law - rights as a suspect. Just because Knox and Sollecito were also not accorded these rights, does not justify them being withdrawn from you.

Are you now clarifying that it is not you under investigation?

 

[carbonjam72]

Yeah, even though they were among the first items collected, they were among the last tested, and were tested at a time when the lab results are totally unreliable because it had slipped into confirmation bias mode.

So the hair and blood from the break-in window were actually tested?

Are those results available, in any form, or simply withheld with the explanation that a usable result could not be obtained?

Would gaining access to the DNA electronic files possibly tell a different story?

Coming back with a match for Rudy in the blood or hair on the break-in window would seem a significant confirmation that Rudy did indeed commit the break-in, and that the break-in was not staged by Amanda, Raf, nor anyone else.

I'd consider that hair and evidence to be as important, or more important then the supposedly untested semen stain on the pillow (which Napoleone seems to know the result of, in regard to a Y chromosome).

And by the way, not testing the hair and blood on the break-in window immediately, or suppressing the result, would be strongly consistent with the investigators protecting Rudy from the outset - i.e. covering their own asses.

 

[carbonjam72]

Fascinating background on this website's namesake. I lived through a lot of these shows on TV, but was too young to understand what was going on. Funny to come full circle.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/09/magazine/the-unbelievable-skepticism-of-the-amazing-randi.html

 

[Diocletus]

So the hair and blood from the break-in window were actually tested?

Are those results available, in any form, or simply withheld with the explanation that a usable result could not be obtained?

Would gaining access to the DNA electronic files possibly tell a different story?

Coming back with a match for Rudy in the blood or hair on the break-in window would seem a significant confirmation that Rudy did indeed commit the break-in, and that the break-in was not staged by Amanda, Raf, nor anyone else.

I'd consider that hair and evidence to be as important, or more important then the supposedly untested semen stain on the pillow (which Napoleone seems to know the result of, in regard to a Y chromosome).

And by the way, not testing the hair and blood on the break-in window immediately, or suppressing the result, would be strongly consistent with the investigators protecting Rudy from the outset - i.e. covering their own asses.

The blood from the window was TMB positive, but didn't quantify any dna. Weird. And yeah, she supposedly waited 5 months to test it.

Not sure what happened to the hair. It didn't look like Rudy's, though.

 

[Dan O.]

Are these supposed to be hard questions?

Putting together a concise order of events would indeed be usefull. But this effort is hampered by all of the evidence that the police withheld. For instance, what was the initial state of Meredith's bed? The natural state that one would expect would be with the bottom sheet, top sheet and duvet neatly spread like the beds in each of the other rooms. But this is Meredith's laundry day and there is other evidence that she was in the process of changing her bed before the attack.

It would help to know if she had a second set of sheets that were in the wash.

I had noted before that there is a rectangular shadow in the blood spray near the wall in front of the wardrobe. This could be where the clean top sheet was folded waiting to be spread on the bed. This top sheet later appears by the bed aparently stained with asparated droplets of blood.

 

[Desert Fox]

"Motivation"? I don't really know if it counts as a "motivation", but Machiavelli has always linked the Masons with this conspiracy to pervert Italian law. Machiavelli says he knows the amount of Euros it took to buy off Judge Hellmann, and the motivation acc. to Mach. is that Hellmann likes fast cars and is generally a criminal.

I apologize to Machiavelli, though, because unless I read this part wrong, Mach. seems to be indicating that he, himself, is being investigated.

"But you perfectly know this cannot be a matter of forum discussion, since this is matter of investigation."

The thing is that all of my arguments on why police / prosecutors / judges may convict an innocent have been demonstrated. Some overarching Masonic conspiracy has not been shown to exist.

 

[Diocletus]

1. In what moment of this sequence does he step on the pillow?
2. To what purpose does he mop the floor with a towel?
3. Why are there no traces of his washing along the path of his subsequent movements?
4. Why does he lock Meredith's door but not flush the toilet?
5. At what moment does he commit a sexual violence?
6. When does he place Meredith's body over the pillow?
7. How does he manage to struggle with Meredith and stab her multiple times without stepping in blood, but later he can't help but to step in blood just after he washed himself, and when she is already dead?
8. Why does he decide to remain in the apartment for so long? I mean if it's around 9pm it's an early hour in Italy, he knows Amanda and knows she is around, also knows the flatmates are in town. Why does he take this risk?

1. 9:08
2. He doesn't. He mops the floor with her dying body.
3. See no. 2.
4. Because you don't use keys to flush toilets.
5. 9:11
6. 9:09
7. Because there was no blood where he needed to step until he needed to move her dying body into position.
8. He doesn't. He goes downstairs to wash up and then runs away.

 

[carbonjam72]

Woop, woop, Mignim style...

The thing is that all of my arguments on why police / prosecutors / judges may convict an innocent have been demonstrated. Some overarching Masonic conspiracy has not been shown to exist.

You're denial of such a masonic conspiracy can only mean that you yourself are not merely a part of it, but one of its very leaders!

Like Mario Spezi, sir, you, are the Monster of Florence!

This really was Mignini's basis for charging Spezi, and the 'Florence 20'. Anyone who criticized Mignini's satanic sect fantasies must, in Mignini's paranoid looking glass, be conspiring against the great Mignini and concealing their own involvement in Mignini's latest delusion.

 

[js202]

You say to-may-to...

Impressive, Mach. I'm sure the usual ballet of rationalization will be trotted out to explain the phantom footsteps, the mixed DNA samples, the different sized feet, the convoluted attempt to make Rudy the lone assailant, and the denial of a cleanup. But this might be your best post ever, and very convincing for any lurkers who have actually looked into the case that are not predisposed to wild conspiracy.

Where you see brilliance, mere mortals with their two feet on planet earth see something more like insanity. As Bill would say, good for you.

 

[Diocletus]

I have an announcement to make, and this might blow open the whole case:

Yesterday, I received a paper cut on my palm. It did bleed a bit. But get this: no one noticed that I had the cut even though I was with many people all day.

I think this proves that ISC might be wrong about their disagreement with the German cops over the significance of Rudy's hand cuts. You know, the ones that he got when he stabbed Meredith in the neck down to the bone, and that caused his hand to bleed resulting in the pillow palm print, the bloody imprint of the hilt of the knife, blood on the purse, and the dark red blood drops downstairs. Anyone seen those DNA results?

Btw, the Guede sample from the vaginal swab: even assuming it's not semen, which is open to question based on the quantification results, can anyone explain to me why we're so sure that it's "epithelial" cells as opposed to, say, blood from Rudy's bleeding finger???

Until I get such an explanation I'm adding Rudy's vagina dna to the list of stuff that is probably Blood from Rudy's finger.

 

[Bill Williams]

The thing is that all of my arguments on why police / prosecutors / judges may convict an innocent have been demonstrated. Some overarching Masonic conspiracy has not been shown to exist.

Machiavelli and Giuliano Mignini are full members of the beliefs below....

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_conspiracy_theories​

You can see why both Mignini and Machiavelli are so sensitive when it comes to the claims of "Satanic Rite" theories of this crime.....

Masonic conspiracy theories are conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry; hundreds of such conspiracy theories have been described since the late 18th century. Generally, these theories fall into three distinct categories: political (usually involving allegations of control of government, particularly in the United States and the United Kingdom), religious (usually involving allegations of anti-Christian or Satanic beliefs or practices), and cultural (usually involving popular entertainment). Many conspiracy theory writers have connected Freemasons (and the Knights Templar) with worship of the devil;​

Conservative Catholics are particularly susceptible.

Italy has had an issue with "secret societies", even banning some (Article 18 of the Constitution of Italy bans secret associations).

For an example, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due​

Propaganda Due , or P2, was a Masonic lodge operating under the jurisdiction of the Grand Orient of Italy from 1945 to 1976 (when its charter was withdrawn), and a pseudo-Masonic, "black", or "covert" lodge operating illegally (in contravention of Article 18 of the Constitution of Italy banning secret associations) from 1976 to 1981. During the years that the lodge was headed by Licio Gelli, P2 was implicated in numerous Italian crimes and mysteries, including the collapse of the Vatican-affiliated Banco Ambrosiano, the murders of journalist Mino Pecorelli and banker Roberto Calvi, and corruption cases within the nationwide bribe scandal Tangentopoli. P2 came to light through the investigations into the collapse of Michele Sindona's financial empire.

P2 was sometimes referred to as a "state within a state" or a "shadow government". The lodge had among its members prominent journalists, members of parliament, industrialists, and military leaders—including Silvio Berlusconi, who later became Prime Minister of Italy; the Savoy pretender to the Italian throne Victor Emmanuel; and the heads of all three Italian intelligence services (at the time SISDE, SISMI and CESIS).

When searching Licio Gelli's villa, the police found a document called the "Plan for Democratic Rebirth", which called for a consolidation of the media, suppression of trade unions, and the rewriting of the Italian Constitution.​

The Kercher murder, acc. to Machiavelli and his conspiracy theories about De Nunzio and Hellmann, are simply part of a larger war within Italy for the very control of the country. At the least, it is reflected in the internecine war even Machiavelli concedes is at root to these trial-proceedings.

Machiavelli would take issue with you. For him (and for Mignini and for many in the party-of-the-PMs), these conspiracies have more than adequately been demonstrated.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli - I may have got it wrong, and English is your second language, and you do a fantastic job with it - but misunderstandings are sure to set in.... but then what did you mean by this?

"But you perfectly know this cannot be a matter of forum discussion, since this is matter of investigation."​

I was asking you to comment if you thought that President of the Court of Appeals, De Nunzio, was also a criminal. You said you could (or would) not comment because this is a "matter of investigation". You did not explain what the "this" was, meaning you did not explain what it was which was under investigation..... and because of such, you were refraining from comment.

You have commented copiously when Giuliano Mignini was under investigation for the Narducci debacle, so I assumed this investigation must be about you.
(...)

Which is precisely what I meant in my very last post when I said "you make up stuff". You admit here you are putting forward your arbitrary speculation.

If so, then you are accorded rights under Italian law - rights as a suspect. Just because Knox and Sollecito were also not accorded these rights, does not justify them being withdrawn from you.

Are you now clarifying that it is not you under investigation?

I don't need to clarify absolutely anything. I said that the matter of judicial corruption is a matter of investigation as for its intrisic nature. Not as a consequence of this or that individual being investigated.

I think the whole series of your posts over the last days are - as usual - having the purpose of shifting the topic of discussion from the Kercher case to a forum poster. Such purpose is fundamentally a violation of the forum topic. No discussion about myself, or about my alleged legal status, or about alleged personal events referred to me, can be an object of discussion. Don't try to open discussions about such topics with me. You can open a forum discussion thread yourself elsewhere, if you want to exchange speculations with your friends about me. No comments or speculations about alleged personal events refered to a poster are acceptable, no requests of "clarifications" about myself are acceptable.

 

[Bill Williams]

I think the whole series of your posts over the last days are - as usual - having the purpose of shifting the topic of discussion from the Kercher case to a forum poster.

The forum poster in question posted the following, and I am asking about what you posted, not about you.

Is it fair to suggest that you believe that De Nunzio is a criminal, based on what you posted. This is not about you - this is about the case you are making against De Nunzio.

This is what you posted about evidence you claimed you had about behind the scenes corruption of the Hellmann court:

Well I have the following evidence:

1) the number and gravity of obvious violation of law and factual falsehoods/absurdities in Hellmann-Zanetti verdict and running of the trial, is too much beyond what you can expect a judge to get wrong in good faith; I had spotted the abomination and absurdity of the Hellmann-Zanetti motivation from the beginning.
2) Hellmann had no experience as a criminal judge; he used to be a nullity, and a civil judge in a minuscle venue, and had no reputation of respect or transparency;
3) Hellmann he was put in that role in sudden replacement of the true judge, Sergio Matteini Chiari, who was pushed away and forced to give up the role through a Machiavellian move by Wladimiro De Nunzio4) all indication point to the fact Hellmann is a Mason;
5) Hellmann is a very rich man who loves money, collects Ferraris and luxurious items, despite having the pay of a normal magistrate.
6) witnesses saw Vecchiotti and Conti in a chummy atitude with Dalla Vedova and Maori at at time before they issued their report
7) witnesses have spotted a number Knox-Solelcito of defence lawers in the ofices of Wladimiro De Nunzio before the beginning of the appeal trial8) Rocco Girlanda published a book and spoke publicly as if he knew in advance that Knox and Sollecito would be freed on appeal; Girlanda is a Mason and a key person in a US-Italy lobby, and politically linked to a number of people including Hellmann
9) witnesses reported about contacts betwen Vecchiotti and Conti and American defence consultants, and there were public admissions of them
10) there is another number of public admissions by American people involved, evidence about which I will remain silent;
11) the reputation of Conti and Vecchiotti from their prior history (as well as the complete lack of expertise of Conti on the filed); the tight links between Vecchiotti and some defence experts (who are also now indicted for corruption on other cases); the personal war already existing between Vecchiotti and Stefanoni;
12) a number of other elements: overall, the picture of manipulation of the trial was glaring and obvious on any aspect of the trial conduction.

This is not about you, this is about your views as posted.

 

[Diocletus]

I don't need to clarify absolutely anything. I said that the matter of judicial corruption is a matter of investigation as for its intrisic nature. Not as a consequence of this or that individual being investigated.

There's no investigation because there's no judicial corruption. What probably happened is that this dinunzio fellow recognized that the available judges were a bunch of political hacks, and so he picked Hellman, who was on the verge of retirement, to make sure that they got a trial untainted by the inherent Italian craziness.

Sounds like a decent thing to have done.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli and Giuliano Mignini are full members of the beliefs below....

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonic_conspiracy_theories​

You can see why both Mignini and Machiavelli are so sensitive when it comes to the claims of "Satanic Rite" theories of this crime.....

I am not "sensitive" and I don't think Mignini is "sensitive" either: the only point is that those who associate Mignini with a Satanic Rite theory on the Kercher case, are proving themselves liars.
Since it is an egregiously false point used by the FOAs and by Spezi/Preston, since it can be easilly proven unfounded and false, it can be just used to show how liars these people are.

Conservative Catholics are particularly susceptible.

I am not a Conservative Catholic.
I am not a Catholic.

In fact, it is not even true that Conservative Catholics are concerned about Satanism. Not even the Catholic Catechism book addresses Satanism as a relevant issue; it only says that Satanism is not a particular sin itself, but it's a sin insofar it falls within the categories of whitchcraft and idolatry: since Satan is a creature and not a God, worship of Satan is merely a sin of idolatry (worshipping of creatures) and insofar it is used a theme for magical superstition, it is just a form of whitchcraft.
There is actually no specific concern about Satanism from the point of view of the Catholic doctrine, it's not worse and not diferent from idolatry or witchcraft. I am not an expert of religious doctrines but I understand Catholicism does not consider Satanism as something to be considered as an issue itself nor as something serious.

 

[Machiavelli]

The forum poster in question posted the following, and I am asking about what you posted, not about you.

Is it fair to suggest that you believe that De Nunzio is a criminal, based on what you posted. This is not about you - this is about the case you are making against De Nunzio.

This is what you posted about evidence you claimed you had about behind the scenes corruption of the Hellmann court:

This is not about you, this is about your views as posted.

But the statement and "request of clarification" you made about investigation was about me.

As for De Nunzio, the only problem is that you are repeating yourself. You are repeating a question to which I had already answered, and where I already stated what I had to say.
I also said that I won't discuss the topic, since it is a matter of investigation and since it is not the reason why I write on forums, so it is pointless to keep on asking me to discuss about it.

 

[Machiavelli]

You're denial of such a masonic conspiracy can only mean that you yourself are not merely a part of it, but one of its very leaders!

Like Mario Spezi, sir, you, are the Monster of Florence!

This really was Mignini's basis for charging Spezi, and the 'Florence 20'. Anyone who criticized Mignini's satanic sect fantasies must, in Mignini's paranoid looking glass, be conspiring against the great Mignini and concealing their own involvement in Mignini's latest delusion.

It's time for you to depart from Spezi and Preston's books.

Spezi was caught in a Villa near Florence, together with ex-policeman Zaccaria and with the mobster and multiple previous offender Luigi Ruocco, while they were attempting to place false evidence against Antonio Vinci.

Btw, Spezi had another conviction for calunnia in Milan just ten days ago (this one was about a false accusation report against Giuttari, that Spezi had submitted to a judge years ago).

 

[Desert Fox]

You're denial of such a masonic conspiracy can only mean that you yourself are not merely a part of it, but one of its very leaders!

Like Mario Spezi, sir, you, are the Monster of Florence!

This really was Mignini's basis for charging Spezi, and the 'Florence 20'. Anyone who criticized Mignini's satanic sect fantasies must, in Mignini's paranoid looking glass, be conspiring against the great Mignini and concealing their own involvement in Mignini's latest delusion.

Where is my Masonic pay check