Continuation Part 11: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Diocletus]

I was not aware of the hair evidence. This is important and if the hair was Knox's would be very significant. Do you have more info about this? Although STR typing would not be possible unless the hair was pulled out and contained the root, mitochondrial DNA typing should have been possible. Given the differing maternal lines of the alleged perpetrators and victim this would have been useful. A competent forensic DNA specialist would have been expected to do this analysis.Did Stefanoni fail to do this? Or was it done and exculpatory and so not presented to the court?

Funny you suggest that. The bottom line is that she bulloxed up every piece of hair evidence available to her. There were no mitochondrial tests.

 

[Samson]

For example Charlie Wilkes and all other case afficianados how about this for a current question.

Lord Toulson asked New Zealand's Solicitor-General the $50,000 question in the Privy Council in London this week.
"Why didn't Pora name [Malcolm] Rewa?"
It is a central conundrum in Pora's convictions for the 1992 rape and murder of Susan Burdett.
Read more:
• Crown accepts Pora's diagnosis, but disputes its impact
• Jock Anderson's Caseload: Number of struck off lawyers explodes
• Pora appeal: Victim's brother hopes for new investigation
Pora named a total of five people, all cleared of DNA of being the rapist.
"A very good question," Mike Heron, QC, responded at the two-day hearing of Teina Pora's appeal.
Pora named two gang members in 1993 when a $20,000 reward and indemnity was on offer, then three more names in 1995 from jail when police offered him $50,000 and help with his parole.
Semen from the scene was linked to Rewa in 1996.
Heron was unsure what the jury that convicted Pora in his retrial was told but said it was not hard to think of an explanation, "bearing in mind who Mr Rewa was, his standing in Highway 61".
Yet Pora was unafraid to name some heavy Mongrel Mobsters.
Pora's lawyers' explanation is that Pora couldn't name Rewa because Pora didn't know him and because Pora wasn't there.Pora cited new evidence - the unreliability of his confessions due to mental impairment, and Rewa's erectile dysfunction - as the basis of his appeal.
The five-member panel of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council is expected to release its decision in January.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

unjustified Knox blood

But this is completely stupid, and btw also based on a glaring false premise. The scene is full of bare footprints, some are in luminol but a couple of them are in diluted blood, and they can't be pinned on Rudy Guede. They are in fact inconsistent with the traces of Rudy Guede. There is a lamp belonging to Amanda Knox in Meredith's room where it shouldn't be and there is no good innocent explanation for that, there is Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp, its amount in the same magnitude to that found of Rudy Guede, there is a print that matches the kitchen knife in the murder room and Meredith's DNA was found on a knife inside Sollecito's apartment. There is no trace of Guede in rooms which are part of the crime scene, because the crime was committed there too not just in Meredith's room, and there are unjusified traces of Knox and Sollecito in those areas (Solelcito's footprint in blood, Knox's DNA mixed with Meredith's DNA in luminol spots in Filomena's room, and unjustified Knox blood in the context of Meredith's blood traces). There is abundant physical traces, there is simply no possible justification to ask for "more Knox and Sollecito" in one specific room. It's stupid and profoundly dishonest. You have absolutely no justification for expecting anything.

Machiavelli,

Anglo's point about the destruction of the clasp is well taken, and the destruction itself should have a strongly negative impact on Stefanoni's credibility. I am not sure how many times I have to say that the strength of the DNA profile in RFU cannot be used to draw inferences. For one thing, there is no way to standardize how much biological material is collected. The difference between Rudy vs. Raffaele and Amanda is that he had never been to the flat; therefore, there are no innocent explanations for his DNA. With respect to Amanda's DNA there are many, and we also know that Raffaele (although he did not live there) did do things that would be expected to deposit DNA (Nencini's discussion of the cigarette butt is embarrassingly stupid in this regard). The mixed traces in the bathroom are the result of two factors, cohabitation and bad collection procedures by the FP. The evidence from Filomena's bedroom is compromised by the foot traffic that occurred in the intervening weeks. I have no idea what "unjustified Knox blood" means.

 

[anglolawyer]

Machiavelli,

Anglo's point about the destruction of the clasp is well taken, and the destruction itself should have a strongly negative impact on Stefanoni's credibility. I am not sure how many times I have to say that the strength of the DNA profile in RFU cannot be used to draw inferences. For one thing, there is no way to standardize how much biological material is collected. The difference between Rudy vs. Raffaele and Amanda is that he had never been to the flat; therefore, there are no innocent explanations for his DNA. With respect to Amanda's DNA there are many, and we also know that Raffaele (although he did not live there) did do things that would be expected to deposit DNA (Nencini's discussion of the cigarette butt is embarrassingly stupid in this regard). The mixed traces in the bathroom are the result of two factors, cohabitation and bad collection procedures by the FP. The evidence from Filomena's bedroom is compromised by the foot traffic that occurred in the intervening weeks. I have no idea what "unjustified Knox blood" means.

The blood is a good thing to focus on. Can we have a reminder of the injury Knox sustained from which she supposedly bled? We can leave aside that the guilters have two parallel, mutually inconsistent theories running most of the time, from which they leap one to the other without any apparent embarrassment - in one there were multiple assailants who restrained her but in the other she was free to inflict bloody injuries.

 

[Dan O.]

...
9. Guede realises that he cannot open the front door without a key (and the bloody shoe prints clearly show hesitation and a change in direction). He turns round and returns to Kercher's room with the intention of taking her keys. Note that since all the blood on the sole of his trainer has now gone (having been deposited on the floor in the bloody shoe prints), there are no bloody shoe prints returning to Kercher's room.

It is very unlikely that all the remaining blood was transferred to the floor at the marker H. What is more believable is that the single faded prints deposited after H were not noticed or recognized by the forensic team. And while the faded track would still be detectable with Luminol, the forensic team in December was intentionally ignoring luminol tracts smaller than a bare footprint.

 

[Dan O.]

... The evidence from Filomena's bedroom is compromised by the foot traffic that occurred in the intervening weeks.

Not to mention the mop that was taken on a tour of the bloody crime scene by the investigators.

 

[Diocletus]

The blood is a good thing to focus on. Can we have a reminder of the injury Knox sustained from which she supposedly bled? We can leave aside that the guilters have two parallel, mutually inconsistent theories running most of the time, from which they leap one to the other without any apparent embarrassment - in one there were multiple assailants who restrained her but in the other she was free to inflict bloody injuries.

I have an announcement to make, and this might blow open the whole case:

Yesterday, I received a paper cut on my palm. It did bleed a bit. But get this: no one noticed that I had the cut even though I was with many people all day.

I think this proves that ISC might be wrong about their disagreement with the German cops over the significance of Rudy's hand cuts. You know, the ones that he got when he stabbed Meredith in the neck down to the bone, and that caused his hand to bleed resulting in the pillow palm print, the bloody imprint of the hilt of the knife, blood on the purse, and the dark red blood drops downstairs. Anyone seen those DNA results?

 

[carbonjam72]

I believe Machiavelli is making up most of his hair evidence out of whole cloth. To my knowledge, the only hair of this sort (i.e. long and straight) that was ever found was the single strand found on/in Kercher's hand. This strand was inexplicably lost by the "crack" forensics morons led by not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni. Yet another example of their "world-class" operation

And regarding that strand, it's my firm opinion that if it was human hair, it was in fact Kercher's own hair. It's very hard to accurately gauge hair colour from a single strand, though it's clearly not jet black. However, Kercher dyed the front of her hair - as can be clearly seen in photos of her in the days before her death. I believe that the strand shown in the post-mortem photos is wholly compatible with a strand of Kercher's own dyed hair.

Were there not also hair and blood found at the break-in window as well? Was all the hair put in a special evidence "hair bag" and lost together?

 

[carbonjam72]

I have an announcement to make, and this might blow open the whole case:

Yesterday, I received a paper cut on my palm. It did bleed a bit. But get this: no one noticed that I had the cut even though I was with many people all day.

I think this proves that ISC might be wrong about their disagreement not with the German cops over the significance of Rudy's hand cuts. You know, the ones that he got when he stabbed Meredith in the neck down to the bone, and that caused his hand to bleed resulting in the pillow palm print, the bloody imprint of the hilt of the knife, blood on the purse, and the dark red blood drops downstairs. Anyone seen those DNA results?

So just to understand this. Concerning Rudy's palm print made in blood: the blood itself in which his palm print was made, was never specifically tested for DNA or blood type? It was never identified whose blood it was? Can that possibly be true?

 

[carbonjam72]

This post is not meant for all, as someone needs a time out...

Were there not also hair and blood found at the break-in window as well? Was all the hair put in a special evidence "hair bag" and lost together?

Hair and blood on the break-in window, and the hairs in Meredith's hand.

If the lab results were that the hair and blood from the window were Rudy, and the hairs on Meredith's hand were her own, then neither of these results would be relevant or important to obtaining a conviction against Amanda and Raf, and were therefore not shared with the defense.

At some point, don't all the errors and lost and untested evidence, seem to add up to a deliberate act of framing, and not merely attributable to monumental stupidity?

 

[Machiavelli]

Huh?

There's a perfectly reasonable and plausible chronological narrative to explain the shoe/foot print evidence with Guede as the sole attacker. It's been outlined here many times before, but perhaps you've missed it (accidentally or willfully?):

1. Guede stabs Kercher in the neck.

2. Guede gets Kercher's blood on his trouser leg (and arms).

3. Guede walks to the small bathroom wearing his trainers, which (as of now) have no blood on their soles (and thus he deposits no bloody shoe prints).

4. Guede removes one or both shoes in order to step into the shower and wash the blood off his trousers with the shower wand.

5. Guede places his bare foot into the blood/water mixture that has pooled in the shower pan, then places the front of this foot onto the bath mat, thereby depositing the partial foot print.

6. Guede towels off one or both feet, puts his trainers back on (inside the small bathroom) and returns to Kercher's room carrying some towels (again leaving no prints, since his trainers have no blood on them at this point).

7. Guede uses the towels to mop up some of the blood in Kercher's room, but in the process he steps in some of the blood, thus transferring blood onto the sole of one of his trainers.

8. Guede decides to leave the cottage, so he leaves Kercher's room and walks down the corridor and into the kitchen/lounge towards the front door, depositing the bloody shoe prints in the process. The shoe prints fade as the blood is cumulatively transferred from the trainer sole to the floor.

9. Guede realises that he cannot open the front door without a key (and the bloody shoe prints clearly show hesitation and a change in direction). He turns round and returns to Kercher's room with the intention of taking her keys. Note that since all the blood on the sole of his trainer has now gone (having been deposited on the floor in the bloody shoe prints), there are no bloody shoe prints returning to Kercher's room.

10. Guede enters Kercher's room and finds her keys. In this final visit, he does not step in any blood.

11. Guede leaves Kercher's room for the last time, and decides to lock her bedroom door behind him (since he now has her keys in his hand). Having done so, he walks to the front door, unlocks the door, and leaves (neglecting to re-lock the door behind him). There are no bloody shoe prints related to this final exit, since Guede no longer has any blood on his trainers by this point.

There are passages in this scenario that are almost comical (his shoeprints fade, his last step shows hesitation, etc... ) but besides the other details, a few questions:

1. In what moment of this sequence does he step on the pillow?
2. To what purpose does he mop the floor with a towel?
3. Why are there no traces of his washing along the path of his subsequent movements?
4. Why does he lock Meredith's door but not flush the toilet?
5. At what moment does he commit a sexual violence?
6. When does he place Meredith's body over the pillow?
7. How does he manage to struggle with Meredith and stab her multiple times without stepping in blood, but later he can't help but to step in blood just after he washed himself, and when she is already dead?
8. Why does he decide to remain in the apartment for so long? I mean if it's around 9pm it's an early hour in Italy, he knows Amanda and knows she is around, also knows the flatmates are in town. Why does he take this risk?

 

[carbonjam72]

Funny you suggest that. The bottom line is that she bulloxed up every piece of hair evidence available to her. There were no mitochondrial tests.

Would any such tests have shown up in skipped sample numbers from the lab? Or is it pretty certain the samples simply were never run?

 

[Machiavelli]

Your source says nothing about the towels being bloody. According to Mach, Rudy would have read something in the press so he would come up with the towell that got compleatly saturated with blood and he had to go fetch another.

My link doesn't work either but I left a reward for those that follow my instructions and "check it out" ...

Just a moment. If I remember correctly he doesn't speak about fetching another towel in his Skype conversation.

 

[carbonjam72]

There are passages in this scenario that are almost comical (his shoeprints fade, his last step shows hesitation, etc... ) but besides the other details, a few questions:

1. In what moment of this sequence does he step on the pillow?
2. To what purpose does he mop the floor with a towel?
3. Why are there no traces of his washing along the path of his subsequent movements?
4. Why does he lock Meredith's door but not flush the toilet?
5. At what moment does he commit a sexual violence?
6. When does he place Meredith's body over the pillow?
7. How does he manage to struggle with Meredith and stab her multiple times without stepping in blood, but later he can't help but to step in blood just after he washed himself, and when she is already dead?
8. Why does he decide to remain in the apartment for so long? I mean if it's around 9pm it's an early hour in Italy, he knows Amanda and knows she is around, also knows the flatmates are in town. Why does he take this risk?

Why is it necessary to imagine that Amanda and Raffaele were present at the time of the murder at all?

Putting aside the homeless heroin addict and professional witness Curatolo, who had testified in 2 other murder cases, there is no other reliable evidence Amanda and Raf ever left Raf's apartment.

Then there would just be one person lying and committing murder: Rudy Guede. Why is that so hard for you and others to accept?

These are good and innocent people. They don't behave like this. It's an act of madness to suggest they do, would, or did.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yikes. Are you being investigated for these remarks?

If you are a suspect in a crime, then you should at least be afforded the rights under Italian law that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were denied. Denying them their rights does not justify withholding them from you.

I apologize if there is an investigation of your postings and defamations.

What are you making up now? You really can't help delusional comments.

 

[Diocletus]

Would any such tests have shown up in skipped sample numbers from the lab? Or is it pretty certain the samples simply were never run?

There aren't any sample numbers that match up, although if she did some secret testing we wouldn't know about it. There is this, though, from Ms. Det. Napoleoni:

Question: Listen do you know the results from Scientific Police, more or less obviously, not in detail because then we’ll ask them. I wanted to ask you if you remember on which exhibits the DNA of Rudy Guede was found

Answer: Well, for sure the DNA of Rudy Guede, it was found on the pillow that was under the victim, on the toilet paper with the feces in the bathroom and on the vaginal swab but I don’t know if it was DNA however they call it Y-chromosome and I’m not a biologist, I’m not able to report on this.

Huh?

 

[Diocletus]

Were there not also hair and blood found at the break-in window as well? Was all the hair put in a special evidence "hair bag" and lost together?

Yeah, even though they were among the first items collected, they were among the last tested, and were tested at a time when the lab results are totally unreliable because it had slipped into confirmation bias mode.

 

[Diocletus]

1. In what moment of this sequence does he step on the pillow?
2. To what purpose does he mop the floor with a towel?
3. Why are there no traces of his washing along the path of his subsequent movements?
4. Why does he lock Meredith's door but not flush the toilet?
5. At what moment does he commit a sexual violence?
6. When does he place Meredith's body over the pillow?
7. How does he manage to struggle with Meredith and stab her multiple times without stepping in blood, but later he can't help but to step in blood just after he washed himself, and when she is already dead?
8. Why does he decide to remain in the apartment for so long? I mean if it's around 9pm it's an early hour in Italy, he knows Amanda and knows she is around, also knows the flatmates are in town. Why does he take this risk?

Are these supposed to be hard questions?

 

[MichaelB]

Fwiw, Maori says the towel was used to smother Meredith.

p14 http://murderofmeredithkercher.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Trascrizioni-2009-Nov-28.doc

AVVOCATO MAORI - Abbiamo sentito questa parte della chat di Rudy, non ve la faccio sentire tutta naturalmente per non tediarvi e sono i brani più importanti, più significativi che abbiamo enucleato, questi ed altri per completare l’esposizione che vi sto facendo. Tutto cioè... Rudy ha avuto in questa tremenda vicenda il vantaggio di essere arrestato troppo tardi allor quando i tre giovani erano in carcere per il medesimo fatto, allor quando già gli investigatori avevano effettuato una ricostruzione della dinamica fallace e su questo errore ha costruito la fantasiosa storia che descrive nella chat. Il P.M. sorprendentemente ingiustamente ha definito nella sua requisitoria povero Rudy l’unico che avrebbe cercato di prestare aiuto a Meredith tamponandole il sangue con degli asciugamani, onestamente queste affermazioni lasciano basiti, in primo luogo perché non vi è una sola ragione per concedere a Rudy la ben che minima comprensione se è vero infatti che è stato abbandonato dalla madre è altrettanto innegabile che egli ha avuto moltissime opportunità di avere una vita normale e addirittura agiata, opportunità che sono state dallo stesso rifiutate, vi ricordate, lo sapete perché risulta anche dagli atti del processo che una famiglia molto molto in vista e molto agiata di Perugia non voglio fare il nome ma lo sapete chi è si era dichiarata disponibile ad adottare Rudy Guede lui non l’ha voluto, ha preferito continuare nella sua così vita dissennata. In secondo luogo perché non vi è agli atti alcun elemento oggettivo atto ad affermare l’aiuto prestato a Meredith, addirittura i periti del G.I.P. riferiscono di una compressione al collo successiva alle lesioni da punta e taglio utilizzata per finire la povera vittima, il famoso asciugamano che Rudy secondo le sue dichiarazioni sarebbe stato utilizzato per tamponare la ferita fatta da questo soggetto sconosciuto in realtà l’asciugamano è servito per soffocare la povera Meredith, ed in terzo luogo perché Rudy con il suo comportamento reticente e mendace ha in questa vicenda sulla coscienza un’altra vittima oltre naturalmente alla prima vittima che è Meredith, la più importante che mai dobbiamo dimenticarci, c’è anche una seconda vittima, Raffaele. Chi è Raffaele Sollecito? Raffaele è un ragazzo lo abbiamo detto prima di 23 anni all’epoca del suo arresto, quasi ventiseienne oggi, passati due anni e un mese circa in carcere, 25 mesi in carcere, era al tempo un laureando in informatica e originario di un piccolo paese pugliese Giovinazzo.

 

[Diocletus]

The blood is a good thing to focus on. Can we have a reminder of the injury Knox sustained from which she supposedly bled?

Sure. She was bleeding out of a hickey. Or, the karate kid gave her a bloody nose, or she cut her lip, or she was menstruating, or her ears piercings were infected. I'm surprised she didn't die of blood loss, like the cat.