Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Desert Fox]

And how is that relevant to Amanda Knox? For all this bull about Amanda supposedly being a coke head, and having relations with dealers, we have seen not a shred of evidence supporting it.

That is what is really sad in this case. What constitutes evidence or facts.

A couple of months ago (maybe three now) I had a coworker, thirty, drive from Southeastern Virginia to have sex with a twelve year old girl in Pennsylvanian.
Pro Guilt logic seems to be that I am guilty of that as well by virtue of being his coworker.

Yes, he was arrested and I believe he is expecting some time in prison.

 

[Machiavelli]

I was repeating the arguement you actually made. You made the arguement that a party claiming an arguement must present evidence for that arguement, with expert consultation

.

You re-formulize my "arguments" transforming them into rules and principles about which I did not make statements. I did not expres myself exactly in the terms as you define them. Of course, there is a general rule that a party must present evidence when they make a claim. But a testimony is not an argument, a testimony is evidence.

I pointed to an arguement by the prosecution that was made without supporting evidence and against expert consultation, yet seems to have attracted zippity zero zilch criticism from people such as yourself.

I think I was talking about testimonies not about "arguments". A testimony is presumed truthful, while an argument needs to be proven.

(...)

You are simply not applying the 'rules' equally, regardless of whether you are aware of this or not.

No no, the problem is that apparently you really ignore the rules.

Then quote the rules. If they exist, they will be written down for clarity and consultation by the authourity that has the power to determine those rules.

I will explain some rather than quote them.

(...)

...actually, do you know what? I and others have been around the merry-go-round with you countless times, and you routinely fail to make any sort of decent effort to actually back up what you say, and the few times you do, it's trivial (in many cases as trivial as pointing to the parts you 'inadvertantly' omit) to point out the logical and factual errors in your arguement.

Maye you missed it, but I have shown where the pro-Knoxes are wrong on countless occasions, and I have proven right on a number of egrgious topics (not last the complete nullification of Hellmann and even pointed to several topics and moves before they became known to the public discourse); you really failed to notice the number of times I have backed what I said with factual evidence and proven that some pro-Knox assertion was baseless, just recently for example on this forum I have taken a single point that was picked and chosen by Kaosium (with Mary H), about the claim that the Italian press and/or police allegedly purposely disseminated false information about bleach receipts, allegedly released by the police in order to poison the public opinion. I have quoted the real press articles, showing that the press actually provided a correct information coverage of details like this one, including the full rebuttals by the defence, and that the police did not report false data. It's just an example. But the problem is that the pro-Knox claims are so construed and delusional and they appear to be so dull, so that it takes too much time to deal with all claims. Just to say, for example Mary H made a long (delusional) rant about "slut-shaming" and also claimed that Fiorenza Sarzanini focused her work (report and book) on Knox's sexual life. I did not comment on Mary H's rant which is, in my opinion, about a distillate of the worse hypocrisy and racism in a degree beyond what I could even imagine; but as for the "factual" part of her claim, that is Fiorenza Sarzanini's book is focused on Knox's sexual morality, Mary H did not provide the slightest trace of backing. Actually the claim is just plain false: Sarzanini's book is not focused on Knox's sexual behaviour nor sexual morals at all, it's a book focused entirely on other topics, but nobody felt the need to ask Mary H to back what she was claiming.

 

[js202]

.Maye you missed it, but I have shown where the pro-Knoxes are wrong on countless occasions, and I have proven right on a number of egrgious topics (not last the complete nullification of Hellmann and even pointed to several topics and moves before they became known to the public discourse); you really failed to notce the number of times I have backed what I said with factual evidence and proven that some pro-Knox assertion was baseless, just recently for example on this forum I have taken a single point that was picked and chosen by Kaosium (with Mary H), about the claim that the Italian press and/or police allegedly purposely disseminated false information about bleach receipts, allegedly released by the police in order to poison the public opinion. I have quoted the real press articles, showing that the press actually provided a correct information coverage of details like this one, including the full rebuttals by the defence, and that the police did not report false data. It's just an example. But the problem is that the pro-Knox claims are so construed and delusional and they appear to be so dull, so that it takes too much time to deal with all claims.

These phenomena have occurred only in the highly subjective space between your ears. Don't be so rash or foolish as to confuse this with reality.

 

[Machiavelli]

These phenomena have occurred only in the highly subjective space between your ears. Don't be so rash or foolish as to confuse this with reality.

Of course, reality consists in what happens between your ears, doesn't it?

 

[Kaosium]

Thanks in advance

Chris Halkides rescued me, it was Federico Aldrovandi.

Here's a little from Maresca, pushing the idea the injuries had nothing to do with the death, it was the small amount of cocaine in his system:

For the moment, however, the opinions diverge. For the defense of the police, the lawyer Francesco Maresca, "the highest point" is that the consultants' exclude signs of injury from trauma as a result of beatings or even a beating. The main cause of death seems to be attributed the widespread use of cocaine. The breathing difficulties may arise from the use of the drug itself. The most important among those found to cause injury are attributable to the activities of resuscitation. So I think we can begin to resize and re-evaluate the long-disputed intervention of the police, which took place according to protocol. "

Here's one which includes a picture, it's not the one I'm thinking of. I think the picture I was thinking of was the one of the guy who was thrown out the window and they claimed it was suicide, maybe his name started with Stephan?

 

[Kaosium]

Kaosium,

The case I am thinking of is the Federico Aldrovandi case (in Ferrara?), in which his mother called the cops delinquents. I have linked to it several times, including entries from Beppe Grillo's blog. There may be another case, because I don't recall Maresca's involvement in the Aldrovandi case. PerugiaShock had some excellent entries on this subject, before PM Mignini had the plug pulled.

Ah, thanks! It looks like that case is still going on in some fashion and Maresca is now involved, perhaps he wasn't initially when it first went down in 2006?

 

[Machiavelli]

Chris Halkides rescued me, it was Federico Aldrovandi.

You are confusing the Aldrovandi case with the Magherini case.

 

[Machiavelli]

A couple of months ago (maybe three now) I had a coworker, thirty, drive from Southeastern Virginia to have sex with a twelve year old girl in Pennsylvanian.
Pro Guilt logic seems to be that I am guilty of that as well by virtue of being his coworker.

Yes, he was arrested and I believe he is expecting some time in prison.

You had a relation of co-working with this person. Amanda Knox did not have any known relation of work with these dealers. Her relation must have been of some other kind. This is not a piece of evidence, it is the debunking of a defensive argument. Simply you can't make the defensive claim Amanda Knox had no relation with the Piazza Grimana drug dealing environment, this is disproven. Amanda Knox had contacts with the drug dealers environment of which Rudy Guede was part; she had a relation both with the human environment "Rudy Guede & Piazza Grimana dealers" and relations with drug use (also her claim that Raffaele used to use extensive drugs).

 

[Skind]

.

You re-formulize my "arguments" transforming them into rules and principles about which I did not make statements. I did not expres myself exactly in the terms as you define them.

Except that's exactly what you did do.

You stated that any person wishing to make an arguement about Curotalos' presentation at court must follow this up with evidence, including a possible expert consultation.

I pointed to an exactly comparable situation where the prosecution made an unsupported declaration in court about a possible event, even though the actual expert right in front of them was saying something totally different.

Maye you missed it, but I have shown where the pro-Knoxes are wrong on countless occasions, and I have proven right on a number of egrgious topics (not last the complete nullification of Hellmann and even pointed to several topics and moves before they became known to the public discourse); you really failed to notice the number of times I have backed what I said with factual evidence and proven that some pro-Knox assertion was baseless, just recently for example on this forum I have taken a single point that was picked and chosen by Kaosium (with Mary H), about the claim that the Italian press and/or police allegedly purposely disseminated false information about bleach receipts, allegedly released by the police in order to poison the public opinion. I have quoted the real press articles, showing that the press actually provided a correct information coverage of details like this one, including the full rebuttals by the defence, and that the police did not report false data.

As I've said, myself and others have been over these details countless times with you, and at no stage has any of your arguements been shown to be anything other than a misrepresentation of the defence arguements, or based on incomplete information, or deliberate omission of information, or obscure references to intangible 'rules' that you have no evidence for.

You can keep *thinking* you've rebutted 'Knoxian' arguements, but the people here have merely demonstrated each and everyone to be factually or logically false in the extreme.

I'm gonna need a heck of a lot more than just your say-so.

So, stop pussyfooting around and start telling me exactly where I can find these rules, or stop pretending they exist outside of your head.

 

[Bill Williams]

You are confusing the Aldrovandi case with the Magherini case.

Oh look! De Nunzio. A criminal. Care to comment?

 

[Grinder]

Text message traffic from and to the phone number 393887942188 appears in the phone traffic list with no name of the other party. For example on Nov 5 13:26 ant 13:27.
In the list of SMS messages found in the phone memory there is a text message on Nov 5 13:24 sent by Amanda to a certain Lorenzo.
As no other text message is sent to anybody around that time it is the same as the 13:27 message in the full list.
(The 3 minute time difference may be for example the imprecise setting of the clock in the handset.
For example the Nov 4 18:25 message to Spyros shows the same 3:13 time difference)

This connects the name Lorenzo to the number 393887942188.
And indeed there is traffic with this number before and after the murder.

Perhaps you have another list than the one I have access to but I see only one connection to Lorenzo on 11.5 at 13.24.07 and no connection to the 393 number near that time.

Do you have any idea why the 393 number is left without a name?

I can see a US number being unidentified but an Italian one?

If there really was a dealer being in some sort of regular contact why didn't it come out during the first trial? This is particularly of interest considering how significant the PGP are now making it. Neither of the kids tested positive for anything but pot which would indicate that even if she was connected it was only for pot. Laura, Filomena and Meredith all had pot connections. Curatolo had a heroin connection, but doesn't seem to bother anyone on the PG side.

The convo is tedious and without significance.

 

[Skind]

Simply you can't make the defensive claim Amanda Knox had no relation with the Piazza Grimana drug dealing environment, this is disproven. Amanda Knox had contacts with the drug dealers environment of which Rudy Guede was part; she had a relation both with the human environment "Rudy Guede & Piazza Grimana dealers" and relations with drug use (also her claim that Raffaele used to use extensive drugs).

No, the arguement put forth - without evidence - by you and others is that Knox had a transactional relationship of drugs for sex with this network.

When people say she had no relationship with this network, they are:

i) actually correct, as she had a known and explained relationship with a member in a non-member capacity, not with the network itself.
ii) even if incorrect, and Knox was getting drugs from this person, this does not mean Knox had contact with the broader network, or even had any knowledge of it's existance.
iii) using your own usage of the word connections to mean 'involvement with'. Regardless of whether you knew you were doing so or not, that was the pragmatic definition of your use of that term.

Desert Fox is entirely correct to point out that his connections with his co-worker do not mean he has connections with people his coworker committed crimes against, which is exactly comparable to Knox's situation.

Now that people are challenging you on your claims, you suddenly run and hide behind the pedantic definitions of connections.

 

[Bill Williams]

Perhaps you have another list than the one I have access to but I see only one connection to Lorenzo on 11.5 at 13.24.07 and no connection to the 393 number near that time.

Do you have any idea why the 393 number is left without a name?

I can see a US number being unidentified but an Italian one?

If there really was a dealer being in some sort of regular contact why didn't it come out during the first trial? This is particularly of interest considering how significant the PGP are now making it. Neither of the kids tested positive for anything but pot which would indicate that even if she was connected it was only for pot. Laura, Filomena and Meredith all had pot connections. Curatolo had a heroin connection, but doesn't seem to bother anyone on the PG side.

The convo is tedious and without significance.

Someone is going to great lengths to make it mean something. They even dispatched a tabloid photographer to Seattle to stalk the woman. For some reason someone is willing to pay real money to create this impression.

Any idea why?

 

[js202]

Of course, reality consists in what happens between your ears, doesn't it?

To a degree, of course, but like most here, I endeavor to make a habit to admit when I am wrong. This is essential to intellectual growth and intellectual honesty. Not to mention, fruitful and enjoyable discussion.

One can have Cartesian and Hegelian discussions about the natures of subjectivity and "reality," of course, but any such discussion falls flat to the extent that one side steadfastly avoids being an honest broker and is rather driven ineluctably by an a priori *agenda*.

 

[Kaosium]

.

I have taken a single point that was picked and chosen by Kaosium (with Mary H), about the claim that the Italian press and/or police allegedly purposely disseminated false information about bleach receipts, allegedly released by the police in order to poison the public opinion.

I don't remember this, nor being involved in any discussion recently regarding bleach receipts outside mentioning them. I did just find out that apparently it was corrected in Italian papers after reporting:

The situation of Raffaele Sollecito instead would greatly aggravated since the last inspection carried out by the police in his studio. Among the items seized were spotted two receipts that openly contradict the story that the young man has made to investigators before he was arrested and the investigating judge during the hearing for the validation of the catch. "The next morning (the crime ed) Amanda woke up before me, woke me up and told me that he wanted to go take a shower at her house because my shower did not like - he explained to the judge the student Giovinazzo - then you came out and I was left to sleep.'s exit towards the 9.30 to 10. Later she came back, played me and I woke up ... ". The ERT team (experts research tracks) on Friday morning, however, in his studio in corso Garibaldi found two receipts to prove the purchase (at different times and well before 10) as many packs of bleach Ace November 2, the morning after 'murder of Meredith Kercher. According to investigators Amanda and Raffaele with the disinfectant would have tried to erase all traces from the knife found in the kitchen after the student from Puglia.

However that correction in the first link includes this little gem:

This, the investigators point out, does not mean that the young man did not go to the supermarket: it could in fact have thrown the tickets immediately after purchase. But the boy's lawyer interprets the data in a diametrically opposite way: "It 'a further indication of the lack of responsibility of the young man who will be confirmed in the coming days with the filing of technical expertise."

Meanwhile, investigations are continuing on the boy. From the laboratories of the postal police must get the answers on the analysis of his computer (the young man said to have worked there the night of the murder) and those of forensic objects seized at his home on November 16, including the two bottles of bleach used, according to the investigative hypothesis, to clean the knife used to kill Meredith.

Even though there's no receipts they still claim bleach was purchased and that it was used on the knife! Outside the idiocy of thinking it would take two bottles of bleach to clean a knife (!) there's the fact they had to know that bleach wasn't used on the knife because they had already claimed to have found DNA on it! They just replaced one lie with another.

 

[Kaosium]

You are confusing the Aldrovandi case with the Magherini case.

Thank you, I wonder why the name Stephan is associated with Italian police malfeasance in my mind.

 

[Bill Williams]

IEven though there's no receipts they still claim bleach was purchased and that it was used on the knife! Outside the idiocy of thinking it would take two bottles of bleach to clean a knife (!) there's the fact they had to know that bleach wasn't used on the knife because they had already claimed to have found DNA on it! They just replaced one lie with another.

Add to this Stefanoni's lie about the phantom groove/striation she claims contained the speck of non-blood DNA. No one else could see this groove, and even if it did exist it would not have protected the phantom-DNA from bleach - esp. two bottles of it!

Whereas Nencini's motivation's report is a mass of illogic, and undeveloped points - Massei's is bizarre, especially at this point. Massei at least has the deceny to lay out the issues; it's just that he consistently endorses Stefanoni on her simple say-so.

Bleach receipts, phantom grooves on knives which had nothing to do with the horrible events. Yes, Virginia, that's the case against Knox and Sollecito.

Hell - even Nencini now says Raffaele's DNA was found on the knife. This would be laughable if not so serious.

 

[bolint]

Perhaps you have another list than the one I have access to but I see only one connection to Lorenzo on 11.5 at 13.24.07 and no connection to the 393 number near that time.

Do you have any idea why the 393 number is left without a name?

I can see a US number being unidentified but an Italian one?

There are two different kinds of lists.
One is a list of full traffic, including voice, SMS, etc. obtained from the service provider Vodafone. This is a full list (excluding unsuccessful or unanswered tries).

The other is a list of SMS messages obtained from Amanda's phone, both from the memory of the handset and from the SIM card.
This is not a full list, deleted messages are not in it.

The original full list (as obtained from Vodafone) has no names at all, only two numbers (caller, callee). No texts of the SMS messages, either. In a few cases only Amanda's number is given.
Various derivative lists have been prepared by posters, these include names but not for all traffic.

As for the SMS list, which includes the texts themselves, too, in the original list there are no numbers, only names.

Your time stamp reveals that it comes from the SMS list. Because they are off by 3:13.
In the SMS list there is only one Lorenzo item around Nov 5 13:27. The one Amanda sent to Lorenzo. The preceding incoming text from Lorenzo had been deleted.
But in the full traffic list it is there, number, time, etc, but not the text, of course.

 

[js202]

When an expert like, just as an example, Dr Peter Gill goes about confirming or rejecting a hypothesis, he dispassionately looks at the data and follows that where it leads him. If the data rejects his hypothesis, he recalibrates and starts over.

If, on the other hand, a clown like Ergon of PMF fame clownishly sets out to refute someone like Gill, he begins with the conclusion that Knox and Sollecito are guilty, and then embarks upon whatever nonsense and sophistry are necessary to "refute" Gill, and "support" his a priori conclusion.

The difference is between the habits and methods of a trained thinker and scientist, and those of an amateur essayist operating on a 10th grade level.

 

[Grinder]

There are two different kinds of lists.
One is a list of full traffic, including voice, SMS, etc. obtained from the service provider Vodafone. This is a full list (excluding unsuccessful or unanswered tries).

The other is a list of SMS messages obtained from Amanda's phone, both from the memory of the handset and from the SIM card.
This is not a full list, deleted messages are not in it.

The original full list (as obtained from Vodafone) has no names at all, only two numbers (caller, callee). No texts of the SMS messages, either. In a few cases only Amanda's number is given.
Various derivative lists have been prepared by posters, these include names but not for all traffic.

As for the SMS list, which includes the texts themselves, too, in the original list there are no numbers, only names.

Your time stamp reveals that it comes from the SMS list. Because they are off by 3:13.
In the SMS list there is only one Lorenzo item around Nov 5 13:27. The one Amanda sent to Lorenzo. The preceding incoming text from Lorenzo had been deleted.
But in the full traffic list it is there, number, time, etc, but not the text, of course.

Thanks. So there is no simple translation of the 35 pages indicated by the fax stamp. Perhaps you could provide a link to the various sources on this. The police report didn't include names. Is that what you're saying?

Coming back to the point of why this issue has any significance,; do you have any evidence that Amanda used any drugs other than pot and didn't just about everyone, except the ILE and expert witnesses, associated with the case smoke pot?

By all accounts neither of the kids tested positive for anything other than pot. Clearly the drug testing is much simpler and straightforward than LCN DNA testing so given that you put stock in the DNA you must accept that neither was taking cocaine the murder night. Right?

Why would Mignini give an interview now about this issue. Shouldn't he explain how, if even true, it impacts the case?

I understand that one of people in her phone became a member of gang of musicians and they formed a band that plays rock and rock.

Drugs - Sex - Rock and Roll.

Now the case has it all. They really should have met at a heavy metal concert.