Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

LOL! I saw a tape of that, it was hilarious!



Is he your special friend?

I'm sure he knows it's been aired, if he wants to answer it he will. Remember things work differently in Italy, it's not impossible he could be prosecuted for making such a charge.

It's something he's already accused De Nunzio of doing, orchestrating a "Machiavelian" switch to Hellmann with what amounts to backroom maneuvering.

How many years in jail can Machiavelli get in Italy for accusing three judges of corruption, if you include Zanetti?

 

[codyjuneau]

I think they need to hire some more help. I don't know why they don't start tapping into the constant stream of income that arises from penalties assessed for treaty violations.

Did you know that over 2012 and 2013, the ECtHR levied over 300,000,000 euros of "fines" against nations for human rights violations? Incredibly, 190,000,000 of this total was levied against one nation: Italy. See pp. 56-57 of this: http://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/execution/Source/Publications/CM_annreport2013_en.pdf

They need to just start charging individual countries additional court fees to help unclog the court system from all of their violations.

I know most member countries are critical of the ECHR for varying reason, one of those criticism is the backlog of cases, I believe ECHR recently got their backlog of cases down to 100K which is interesting given one of the main criticism of the Italian judicial system is the length of time it takes to process cases.
That being said, as you indicated Amanda’s appeal submission rightly in my opinion has remained private although your predictions of its possible contents appear consistent with what has been stated over the years; for sure this is not the first of its kind to be raised against Italy, I wonder what the percentage of (like) cases have been won against Italy.

I do believe over time ECHR will be reformed, not sure how.

.
I know how, get Italy to reform. Instant backlog solution.

Cody
.

 

[Desert Fox]

Have you heard about that case where that kid was beaten to death and the cops sued the mother when she called them a bad word? I forget what it translated best as, but it wasn't even all that naughty.

Maresca handled that case for the cops suing the poor mother of the boy they beat to death. He is the sleaziest lawyer in Italy, having cemented that status with his actions in this case which cannot help but destroy three families unless something unexpected happens sometime soon.

No, I had not heard about the case. Any links to any articles on this?
Using Americans as whipping boys for political careers / gain for power are more common in Europe than one might like.

 

[Kaosium]

No, I had not heard about the case. Any links to any articles on this?

Yeah, dozens of them--back in the threads somewhere!

I'd dig it up but I can't remember the name, I think the first name was Stephan or something similar. The pictures were ugly, they really went to town on the poor guy.

Using Americans as whipping boys for political careers / gain for power are more common in Europe than one might like.

This was an Italian.

 

[Samson]

Stefanoni's evidence on the clasp and knife (two mention those two only) is worthless whether she is a liar or not. I like it that you don't defend her competence and note your careful choice of words - no one was able to show she lied. Of course, accusations of lying would be met by law suits because Italian law hamstrings litigants and lawyers by denying them privilege. Not was her truthfulness directly at issue. The first appeal court was able to dismiss her evidence as worthless without making serious findings against her. She was lucky because she belongs in jail.

Stefanoni is an obvious liar whether anyone sought to establish that as a fact or not. Your defence of her relies too much on twisting the ordinary meaning of words and the accusation of lying against C-V does not obey your own rules - no one was able to prove they lied.

Anyway, let's just agree as to her incompetence (and the resulting impact on the value of her evidence) and leave it at that.

PMF is at least a go to site for historic links, (especially for late arrivals to the party like me).
Just posted a link to this excellent Vanity Fair article by Judy Bachrach
from may 2008
http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2008/06/perugia200806.print

She saw right through this case, despite Amanda showering in a blood drenched bathroom.

A knife quote.

And, as Amanda informed her parents during a jail visit, she has no idea how that large knife managed to migrate from her own kitchen to her boyfriend’s house. But three legal sources in Perugia (two unfriendly to Amanda) tell me the injuries sustained by Meredith were inconsistent with the blade of that knife.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yeah, dozens of them--back in the threads somewhere!

I'd dig it up but I can't remember the name, I think the first name was Stephan or something similar. The pictures were ugly, they really went to town on the poor guy.

Thanks in advance

This was an Italian.

I did not properly argue what I was trying to. Instead of trying to argue what I was going to, let me start over.
There are numbers of sleazy people in the legal system no matter what. If they can gain power, either political or within their own system, they will do so. As such, I am pretty cautious labeling anybody "the worst"

Who is actually worse, those involved in the Norfolk Four or the West Memphis Three? You throw up you hands when asked.

 

[Desert Fox]

Translation.
7. The Scientific Police of the periphery is not equipped with standardized equipment. Just think of the fridge/freezers in use: they are those used for food! The protective and safety equipments themselves and are not bought for lack of funds. The suits? They are used only when there are TV cameras around. Masks and hoods? You wear them only if there are consultants and lawyers around! The gloves? One must not waste them and the recommendations are of using them until they break up!

Revisiting this:

Nitrile gloves are a bit more expensive than latex gloves but are still around $10.00 US for a 100 pack. Prefer them because they hold up better than latex. Seems suspicious.

 

[Planigale]

You are calling me a lackey, which you have no right to nor evidence for, I think resorting to this does not help your argument.
The true fact is Stefanoni has never been "shown having lied", not about the quantification nor anything else. Moreover, the hundreds of picograms - this is only incidental - despite your denial, happens to be an appropriate figure as a magnitude estimation. The truth is Stefanoni's work had the utmost transparency, while it must be bore in mind that transparency is carried on within the procedure, far more they were legally bound; think at the videos for example. It means you can't sweep under the carpet details like the fact that prof. Potenza was present as well as the experts and that test were established to be unrepeatable under the protocol of incidente probatorio. I'm on a cell phone so I won't spend too many long words: your claims are - ehm, obviously, to most Italians - false and ridiculous. Your claim about a TMB is ridiculous and even contradictory (it was Stefanoni who provided information herself, and was about something experts should know since they were supposed to attend tests and maybe even had videos). The claims are absurd, and the question why some people decide to have their minds cling to such unfounded ideas, remains as an open question to me.

However, Stefanoni's work is being held up as an example of poor practice in a book by a world renowned expert in the field. Do I believe him or Stefanoni? If Stefanoni thinks she has a leg to stand on she could sue. That she sits back and accepts it says it all. You criticise the court appointed independent assessors would you give specifics of the errors or falsehoods made by them for us to review? One clear example of Stef deceiving the court (deliberately or otherwise) is saying she used internationally agreed standards for defining the alleles of interest on the bra hook. This is not true. If she had followed that methodology she would have identified multiple contributors.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

one case or two?

Have you heard about that case where that kid was beaten to death and the cops sued the mother when she called them a bad word? I forget what it translated best as, but it wasn't even all that naughty.

Maresca handled that case for the cops suing the poor mother of the boy they beat to death. He is the sleaziest lawyer in Italy, having cemented that status with his actions in this case which cannot help but destroy three families unless something unexpected happens sometime soon.

Kaosium,

The case I am thinking of is the Federico Aldrovandi case (in Ferrara?), in which his mother called the cops delinquents. I have linked to it several times, including entries from Beppe Grillo's blog. There may be another case, because I don't recall Maresca's involvement in the Aldrovandi case. PerugiaShock had some excellent entries on this subject, before PM Mignini had the plug pulled.

 

[bolint]

You could hardly argue Machiavelli that Lorenzo is Amanda's friend selling her cocaine. I also don't see a single call or text to or from Lorenzo, Luciano or Federico.

Text message traffic from and to the phone number 393887942188 appears in the phone traffic list with no name of the other party. For example on Nov 5 13:26 ant 13:27.
In the list of SMS messages found in the phone memory there is a text message on Nov 5 13:24 sent by Amanda to a certain Lorenzo.
As no other text message is sent to anybody around that time it is the same as the 13:27 message in the full list.
(The 3 minute time difference may be for example the imprecise setting of the clock in the handset.
For example the Nov 4 18:25 message to Spyros shows the same 3:13 time difference)

This connects the name Lorenzo to the number 393887942188.
And indeed there is traffic with this number before and after the murder.

 

[Skind]

You just need to learn a bit of the rules, Skind. This applies to all your "logical" argumentations, including the last one where you were attributing to me strange statements and drawing out some strange inference.

I was repeating the arguement you actually made. You made the arguement that a party claiming an arguement must present evidence for that arguement, with expert consultation.

I pointed to an arguement by the prosecution that was made without supporting evidence and against expert consultation, yet seems to have attracted zippity zero zilch criticism from people such as yourself.

That was just one of many such prosecution arguements that was made against expert analysis, or without any of the evidence you demand is required of defence arguements.

You are simply not applying the 'rules' equally, regardless of whether you are aware of this or not.

You just need to understand "accusation versus defence" is not the only principle of a trial. There is a set of principles, or rules and a procedure, the players know in advance, and their moves are in function of this pre-existing set; like in a sport game the meaning of each "move" (or "lack" of move) is to be read through the lenses of the principles and rules of what you are playing. The rules and techniques determine what a player is supposed to do, what needs to do if he aims to a certain goal or follow a certain strategy. You need to understand a little of the rules if you want to understand when a player is having a weak game or a strong one.

Then quote the rules. If they exist, they will be written down for clarity and consultation by the authourity that has the power to determine those rules.

So quote them.


...actually, do you know what? I and others have been around the merry-go-round with you countless times, and you routinely fail to make any sort of decent effort to actually back up what you say, and the few times you do, it's trivial (in many cases as trivial as pointing to the parts you 'inadvertantly' omit) to point out the logical and factual errors in your arguement.

There is no point in arguing with you any more, except as a piece of amusement.

 

[Skind]

The question of whether or not Stefanoni is a liar is pretty much irrelevant. As many people here have demonstrated, she was simply wrong, wrong, wrongitty wrong-wrong, on a great number of things she claimed in court.

She simply didn't turn up to court with the reference documents regarding her work that she knew she would have been questioned upon. Documents that had supposedly been deposited many moons prior and that she had previously been questioned on in court.

A supposed professional
with experience
working at 'top' levels
allegedly to ISO document management accreditation levels
who had already been questioned on a particular work
who must have known that particular work was of interest
who must have known she would subsequently be questioned on that particular work...

...turns up to court and has to answer technical and semantic (factual) questions off the top of her head because she's neglected to bring along anything that she can reference in her answer.

"Stafanoni isn't a liar - she was just incompetant and unprepared!" - is hardly a resounding endorsement.

 

[acbytesla]

Text message traffic from and to the phone number 393887942188 appears in the phone traffic list with no name of the other party. For example on Nov 5 13:26 ant 13:27.
In the list of SMS messages found in the phone memory there is a text message on Nov 5 13:24 sent by Amanda to a certain Lorenzo.
As no other text message is sent to anybody around that time it is the same as the 13:27 message in the full list.
(The 3 minute time difference may be for example the imprecise setting of the clock in the handset.
For example the Nov 4 18:25 message to Spyros shows the same 3:13 time difference)

This connects the name Lorenzo to the number 393887942188.
And indeed there is traffic with this number before and after the murder.

Good Bolint, Thanks for identifying that number.

Lorenzo is not really Amanda's friend, he is Filomana's friend and an acquaintance Amanda met through Filomena. If you can identify which if any number is supposedly Federico, let us know. Thanks.

 

[bolint]

Lorenzo is not really Amanda's friend, he is Filomana's friend and an acquaintance Amanda met through Filomena.

How do we know that?

 

[bolint]

This is the news report of Luciano stabbing his brother A(ntonio) in 2006.
It is in Perugia and the date is the same as in the police notice (annotazione) about Federico's circle.

http://www1.adnkronos.com/Archivio/...RATELLO-DURANTE-UNA-LITE-ARRESTATO_115613.php
(found in a twitter blog)

PERUGIA: ACCOLTELLA IL FRATELLO DURANTE UNA LITE, ARRESTATO
Perugia, 28 lug. (Adnkronos) - E’ accusato di aver ridotto in fin di vita il fratello maggiore, colpendolo con un coltello da cucina di grosse dimensioni durante una lite, un campano di 26 anni, A.L. arrestato con l’accusa di tentato omicidio. Il tutto e’ accaduto intorno alle 2.30 di questa notte nel folignate. Alcuni residenti della periferia della cittadina, sono stati svegliati nel sonno dalle urla provenienti da un’abitazione, dove risiede una famiglia di origine campana da alcuni anni domiciliati a Foligno.

Immediatamente sono state allertate una pattuglia dei carabinieri ed un’equipe medica del 118 che, arrivati sul posto si sono trovati di fronte ad uno scenario cruento. Riverso in una pozza di sangue, lungo le scale del condominio dell’abitazione, il corpo privo di sensi di A.A., 28 anni.

Secondo quanto riferito dai militari, il corpo presentava numerose ferite inferte con un’arma da taglio di grosse dimensioni e molto affilata. Il ferito e’ stato immediatamente trasportato presso l’ospedale di Foligno dove attualmente si trova ricoverato in prognosi riservata. I carabinieri, quindi, hanno attivato una serie di indagini, per risalire al fratello dell’uomo che e’ stato rintracciato all’intreno di un garage adiacente alla’abitazione dove e’ accaduto il fatto.

(Anr/Ct/Adnkronos)

 

[Bill Williams]

...actually, do you know what? I and others have been around the merry-go-round with you countless times, and you routinely fail to make any sort of decent effort to actually back up what you say, and the few times you do, it's trivial (in many cases as trivial as pointing to the parts you 'inadvertantly' omit) to point out the logical and factual errors in your arguement.

There is no point in arguing with you any more, except as a piece of amusement.

Machiavelli's posts with anglolawyer say it all. Anglo accuses Stefanoni of lying. Machiavelli counters with, "Stefanoni never lied in court." What M. then demands is that one show how Stefanoni had been charged with perjury, or defamation or other such thing....

Machiavelli simply tries to control the parameters of the argument.

What I'd like to know (and maybe someone needs to quote this because he seems to have me blocked) - does Machiavelli regard Wladimiro De Nunzio a criminal? After all, he's the one M. said manipulated the system in "Machiavellian fashion" to put Hellmann in as judge in the first place.

Why does Machiavelli not want to control the argument on that!?

 

[acbytesla]

How do we know that?

From Amanda's book I think. Filomena introduced them.

 

[acbytesla]

This is the news report of Luciano stabbing his brother A(ntonio) in 2006.
It is in Perugia and the date is the same as in the police notice (annotazione) about Federico's circle.

http://www1.adnkronos.com/Archivio/...RATELLO-DURANTE-UNA-LITE-ARRESTATO_115613.php
(found in a twitter blog)

And how is that relevant to Amanda Knox? For all this bull about Amanda supposedly being a coke head, and having relations with dealers, we have seen not a shred of evidence supporting it.

That is what is really sad in this case. What constitutes evidence or facts.

 

[bolint]

From Amanda's book I think. Filomena introduced them.

I can't find anything like that in the book.

 

[bolint]

For all this bull about Amanda supposedly being a coke head, and having relations with dealers, we have seen not a shred of evidence supporting it.

It is quite clear that Federico was a dealer and Amanda herself admits:

By then it was so obvious that Cristiano and I were into each other that I’m sure Deanna felt like an add-on. As soon as we finished eating, she announced that she wanted to go to bed and left us alone. Cristiano and I were walking around the city arm in arm when he said, “Hey, do you like spinelli?”—“joints.”
“Yeah, do you have any?” I asked.
We shared a joint, and then, high and giggly, we went to his hotel room. I’d just turned twenty. This was my first bona fide one-night stand.
I’d told my friends back home that I couldn’t see myself sleeping with some random guy who didn’t matter to me. Cristiano was a game changer.
We didn’t have a condom, so we didn’t actually have intercourse. But we were making out, fooling around like crazy, when, an hour later, I realized, I don’t even know this guy. I jumped up, kissed him once more, and said good-bye. I went upstairs to the tiny room Deanna and I were sharing. She was wide awake, standing by the window. “Where have you been?” she asked. “I didn’t know where you were or if you were okay.”