Continuation: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

[johnny karate]

How many times do you think Zimmerman fell and hit his head in this fight that wasn't really a fight?

Who said it wasn't really a fight?

What's being denied is your claim that Zimmerman was "beaten up" as opposed to being punched one time.

And where's your evidence that the injuries to the back of Zimmerman's head are the result of him falling as opposed to moving his head side to side while on the ground?

He has lacerations and at least one conspicuous abrasion in a sideways zigzag pattern. Those injuries imply lateral movement, not impact injuries.

 

[Moss]

At minimum the number of cuts and abrasions present, which is greater than one. But that's like guessing how many times a woman with 3 (non-twin) children has had sex, you just know the minimum is 3.

Well, could be mistaken, but from the pictures in this thread of his injuries there are two lacerations on a similar height if you consider the contact edges of his head with the ground. Thinking about it my gut feeling is that it is less likely that they would happen at the same time, but I'm not sure if I could rule it out.
And I've said it before : Abrasions could also be the result of a struggle on the ground if the ground is sufficiently abrasive. Which most concrete is.

 

[WildCat]

Well, that sure looked like a piss poor attempt to show "dozens of pages" of people denying Zimmerman had any injuries at all - When asked to show a couple examples, THIS, this is what you come up with ??

Your link has JK stating right off the bat: "I've never disputed claims of injuries, only the nature and severity of those injuries..."

The second one is specific to the evidence that states Z definitely had a broken, nose, not at all saying he had any injuries at all - just that there is no medical record stating he DID have a broken nose. And that's true. The closest we have is a "likely" broken nose, and Z refusing medical advice to see an ENT specialist.

Both of those examples in no way, shape or form, back up what you claim. Not even close. In fact, as you well know, JK is on record many, many times stating Z had injuries, and that TM likely punched him.

That has to be one of the grandest fail's of your posts I seen, since ...yesterday.

Keep on believeing that, but everyone here can see how johnny syarted off denying any injuries at all, then when that became indefensible (dozens of pages later) he started denying the severity of the injuries, as if that were relevant somehow to anything Zimmerman claimed.

Even at this point in the thread people are speculating that Martin only hit Zimmerman once, and then Zimmerman apparently fell backwards and hit his head, got up and fell backwards and hit his head again, then got up and fell backwards and hit his head again, etc etc equalling the number of cuts and abrasions on Zimmermans head. All from a single punch!

Certainly, a hypothesis worthy of serious discussion!

 

[Unabogie]

I just came to realize that there is no glaring contradiction or inconsistency that will sway some people.

After all, if you change your story a few times along the way, memory is faulty. And if you say something clearly contradicted by the evidence, it's that getting in a street fight is like a dream, and you only remember the beginning and the end, plus some bits in between. And if you get something about the beginning or the end wrong, just wait. Because someone will come along and say it was the head trauma from Trayvon that caused the fuzzy story.

At some point, if you can't admit that a story just doesn't track with the other evidence and known reality, you will never be swayed about anything.

 

[marplots]

And of course, it's not that he didn't remember the middle. The punch was the first thing that happened! And he said one punch, down to the ground. I know that is a problem for him because the body is 55' away from where he claimed he hit the ground, but that doesn't mean we should just excuse it away as faulty memory or whatever.

He said it! Twice! He was sure!

Later on, when it's pointed out to him how that was obvious BS, he claimed he was somehow "trying to push him away" while "stumbling" but this in no way explains moving 55' away. It just doesn't. His story here is implausible.

I can't explain how a punch could knock someone that far, so I'm going to reject that framing as bogus. However, 55' doesn't seem that far if there is more to the confrontation. My house (in one direction) is 60'. If you and I had words where I am sitting now, it seems quite possible that a couple of pushes and some movement later, we could be across the distance pretty quickly. Combining these two, his story doesn't match, but as far as "it could have happened during a struggle," I have to say it's not unreasonable in the pushing away and stumbling back storyline.

And there could be another reason for GZ to lie about the fight. What if it isn't some clever reworking to hook into SYG elements, but just an unwillingness to seem cowardly?

He might have backed away, knowing the cops were on the way. I actually like the idea that George has to reconstruct it in his mind so there is an overwhelming force element -- otherwise, he'd just beat the guy up with his heroic pseudo-cop abilities. It could be he was just an over-reacting, scared little bunny, and really did think he was losing the fight. (Which he probably was.) This doesn't get GZ off the hook. His belief of danger to life has to be reasonable.

I can call my version, "Lying to appear manly."

 

[Unabogie]

Keep on believeing that, but everyone here can see how johnny syarted off denying any injuries at all, then when that became indefensible (dozens of pages later) he started denying the severity of the injuries, as if that were relevant somehow to anything Zimmerman claimed.

Seriously, stop digging. That was a fail so big they just found the Higgs Boson because of it.

 

[Moss]

Keep on believeing that, but everyone here can see how johnny syarted off denying any injuries at all, then when that became indefensible (dozens of pages later) he started denying the severity of the injuries, as if that were relevant somehow to anything Zimmerman claimed.

Even at this point in the thread people are speculating that Martin only hit Zimmerman once, and then Zimmerman apparently fell backwards and hit his head, got up and fell backwards and hit his head again, then got up and fell backwards and hit his head again, etc etc equalling the number of cuts and abrasions on Zimmermans head. All from a single punch!

Certainly, a hypothesis worthy of serious discussion!

That's a nice strawman you are building on the premise that collective number of injuries = number of hits of head against ground. Is whether that premise if true or not open to debate (because lumping together different types of injuries that may have different causes is possibly a flawed idea) or not?

 

[johnny karate]

Keep on believeing that, but everyone here can see how johnny syarted off denying any injuries at all...

I never made any such denial.

You are lying.

 

[WildCat]

Resolution and distance make it difficult to determine anything conclusive, but he looks remarkably uninjured to me.

That was page 81 btw.

Having watched the video several times on television, it is really hard for me to believe Zimmerman was seriously injured.

There is no real clear shot of his face, but the back of his head (which is almost clean shaven) is quite clear a few times, and looks unblemished. And it's certainly not in a condition one would expect for someone who supposedly had his head repeatedly bashed on concrete.

There's a couple shots where his nose is shown clearly in profile, and that doesn't look broken either.

I'm not saying Zimmerman wasn't injured at all, but there isn't any evidence of injury on that video.

No busted lip, either.

EMT's can clean up surface blood; but they couldn't make a broken nose (and related facial bruising) or fat lip invisible.

johnny gets more assertive...

And that alone leads me to question Zimmerman's account. How hard do I have to look to be able to see evidence of the beating this man supposedly suffered?

How long does it take for scalp lacerations to really show?

I see a slight discoloration on the back of his head that may be some type of injury, or just a shadow. You can clearly see the outline of the back of his head from several different angles, and it does not appear at all misshapen or swollen.

Again, we were told Zimmerman had his head repeatedly bashed onto concrete. There is nothing in that video that indicates this is true.

You are being disingenuous. Zimmerman supposedly had a broken nose and scalp lacerations. That video shows no evidence of that. No blood. No bandages. Nothing that would indicate he was injured as badly as he claimed.

I'm guessing because he couldn't figure out where Zimmerman's injuries were either.

No, you saw a dark patch that only really showed up at the right angle that you've now concluded is an injury thanks to a doctored photo.

And still no valid explanation from anyone how a fresh scalp laceration of that size requires no wound dressing.

I could go on and on and on...

 

[Unabogie]

I can't explain how a punch could knock someone that far, so I'm going to reject that framing as bogus. However, 55' doesn't seem that far if there is more to the confrontation. My house (in one direction) is 60'. If you and I had words where I am sitting now, it seems quite possible that a couple of pushes and some movement later, we could be across the distance pretty quickly. Combining these two, his story doesn't match, but as far as "it could have happened during a struggle," I have to say it's not unreasonable in the pushing away and stumbling back storyline.

And there could be another reason for GZ to lie about the fight. What if it isn't some clever reworking to hook into SYG elements, but just an unwillingness to seem cowardly?

He might have backed away, knowing the cops were on the way. I actually like the idea that George has to reconstruct it in his mind so there is an overwhelming force element -- otherwise, he'd just beat the guy up with his heroic pseudo-cop abilities. It could be he was just an over-reacting, scared little bunny, and really did think he was losing the fight. (Which he probably was.) This doesn't get GZ off the hook. His belief of danger to life has to be reasonable.

I can call my version, "Lying to appear manly."

He has had many opportunities to clear up anything he may have lied about. But at the first bond hearing, when asked about his story had changed at ALL, he said "absolutely NOT".

But even you admit that that isn't true, since we can clearly hear him claim one punch, down to the ground and have that morphed into a 55' jump. Now no one is claiming he literally was punched 55', but remember, he even claimed he fell backwards, which would put him even further away from where the body was.

Now, do I know for sure why he's lying about this? No. But we do have the other piece of evidence, which is that George was running after him. You can clearly hear him running on the NEN call. He admits on the call that he's following him.

I think the much more likely explanation is that the confrontation didn't happen at the T at all. It happened where they fought. But that puts George in much more trouble legally, since now there's an element of him trying to detain Trayvon. I think this is the crux of why he lied about the one punch, then down changing into the 55' stumble dance.

But yeah, I think it was a scuffle he was losing and very poor judgment that led to him pulling his gun. I don't believe his story, but I don't think he set out to shoot anyone. But he shot someone anyway, and he is at fault. He should have to account for this.

 

[Noztradamus]

That sounds reasonable, but might not be. The problem, from the rememberer's point of view, is that no one tells you beforehand that the next ten minutes are going to be seriously significant and you ought to pay attention. It's only afterwards that any of what happened becomes important.

~~~~

I can't say in GZ's case, but I would grant some leeway.

I wouldn't. Last time I went to the store (Day and a half ago) I didn't know there was going to be a test, but I can answer all the questions except
1)exactlty how many seconds it took to walk to the door and
2)whether the cashier was wearing a wedding band - the position I was standing her left hand was hidden behind the cash register, but I probably wouldn't have noticed anyway, I usually don't.

OTOH, from his statement, when George got out of his truck, Martin was "the suspect", I'd expect George to be paying attention.

 

[Unabogie]

That was page 81 btw.

johnny gets more assertive...

I could go on and on and on...

Please don't. This is painful.

 

[johnny karate]

That was page 81 btw.

Having watched the video several times on television, it is really hard for me to believe Zimmerman was seriously injured.

There is no real clear shot of his face, but the back of his head (which is almost clean shaven) is quite clear a few times, and looks unblemished. And it's certainly not in a condition one would expect for someone who supposedly had his head repeatedly bashed on concrete.

There's a couple shots where his nose is shown clearly in profile, and that doesn't look broken either.

I'm not saying Zimmerman wasn't injured at all, but there isn't any evidence of injury on that video.

You are being disingenuous. Zimmerman supposedly had a broken nose and scalp lacerations. That video shows no evidence of that. No blood. No bandages. Nothing that would indicate he was injured as badly as he claimed.

The failure continues unabated.

I could go on and on and on...

Please don't. It's hard to watch you embarrass yourself.

 

[Draca]

Does GZ's story have either him or TM running across the yard? Two of the witnesses said they saw one or two people running correct? I would think that would happen from around the T to where the shooting happened. I wonder why GZ doesn't mention running?

If he ran FROM TM I would think that would be part of his story that he would be sure to mention, that TM chased him.

So if GZ doesn't mention running away from TM could it be because TM was running away from HIM? or that GZ was chasing TM.

Very unfortunate the witnesses are not clear. Did they see what color shirt was running?

 

[marplots]

He has had many opportunities to clear up anything he may have lied about. But at the first bond hearing, when asked about his story had changed at ALL, he said "absolutely NOT".

But even you admit that that isn't true, since we can clearly hear him claim one punch, down to the ground and have that morphed into a 55' jump. Now no one is claiming he literally was punched 55', but remember, he even claimed he fell backwards, which would put him even further away from where the body was.

Now, do I know for sure why he's lying about this? No. But we do have the other piece of evidence, which is that George was running after him. You can clearly hear him running on the NEN call. He admits on the call that he's following him.

I think the much more likely explanation is that the confrontation didn't happen at the T at all. It happened where they fought. But that puts George in much more trouble legally, since now there's an element of him trying to detain Trayvon. I think this is the crux of why he lied about the one punch, then down changing into the 55' stumble dance.

But yeah, I think it was a scuffle he was losing and very poor judgment that led to him pulling his gun. I don't believe his story, but I don't think he set out to shoot anyone. But he shot someone anyway, and he is at fault. He should have to account for this.

I pretty much agree with this. It will be interesting to hear the narrative that emerges as "official" at trial. I assume his lawyer is going over his story, point by point and addressing the inconsistencies.

I'm almost disappointed that I won't be hearing the trial as a virgin -- it's awfully hard to forget the evidence you've seen or see it in the way a jury gets it.

 

[bookworm]

Does GZ's story have either him or TM running across the yard? Two of the witnesses said they saw one or two people running correct? I would think that would happen from around the T to where the shooting happened. I wonder why GZ doesn't mention running?

If he ran FROM TM I would think that would be part of his story that he would be sure to mention, that TM chased him.

So if GZ doesn't mention running away from TM could it be because TM was running away from HIM? or that GZ was chasing TM.

Very unfortunate the witnesses are not clear. Did they see what color shirt was running?

I've wondered about this myself. Is it possible that when the witness saw this, it was at the beginning when TM was first running back there? Or is it definitely after the confrontation started?

 

[Draca]

I've wondered about this myself. Is it possible that when the witness saw this, it was at the beginning when TM was first running back there? Or is it definitely after the confrontation started?

Right,

What direction did the witnesses see someone run?

Does anyone know if the running witnesses statements are online?

 

[WildCat]

The failure continues unabated.

Please don't. It's hard to watch you embarrass yourself.

Johnny, it's there for all to see.

How many times do you think Zimmerman fell down and hit his head?

 

[WildCat]

Right,

What direction did the witnesses see someone run?

Does anyone know if the running witnesses statements are online?

Maybe that witness saw the other witness (who was out walking his dog, the kid IIRC) who ran inside to tell his mother?

 

[Cylinder]

Right,

What direction did the witnesses see someone run?

Does anyone know if the running witnesses statements are online?

Witness 2