Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[DeathDart]

Actually what I am trying to show is that it is possible to reconstruct the collapse.

When I said that 80% of the steel from the desired floors could have been retrieved , you begin to see the way debris is created and the paths it can take..

A real investigation would have shut down the WTC steel removal after the rescues were completed!

Then each and every piece of steel would be marked and its position surveyed, BEFORE it is removed.

Most of the steel can only be given a generalized position (AT FIRST) because its markings have been obliterated. But some of the steel does have markings indicating it's original position.

We have its initial position of steel pieces in the building and its final resting position in the debris field. We can follow the movement of the known pieces to determine debris flow patterns. Pieces of metal that don't have markings can have their original position refined relative to the known pieces.

It is tedious and slow as hell, but it will work. It won't reproduce every pieces origin to 100%, but 80% seems doable.

 

[uke2se]

Actually what I am trying to show is that it is possible to reconstruct the collapse.

When I said that 80% of the steel from the desired floors could have been retrieved , you begin to see the way debris is created and the paths it can take..

A real investigation would have shut down the WTC steel removal after the rescues were completed!

Then each and every piece of steel would be marked and its position surveyed, BEFORE it is removed.

Most of the steel can only be given a generalized position (AT FIRST) because its markings have been obliterated. But some of the steel does have markings indicating it's original position.

We have its initial position of steel pieces in the building and its final resting position in the debris field. We can follow the movement of the known pieces to determine debris flow patterns. Pieces of metal that don't have markings can have their original position refined relative to the known pieces.

It is tedious and slow as hell, but it will work. It won't reproduce every pieces origin to 100%, but 80% seems doable.

So, instead of focusing on what actually caused the collapse, you would have spent loads of time and tax payer's money on identifying every piece of steel in a huge pile of steel from multiple buildings?

 

[DGM]

A real investigation would have shut down the WTC steel removal after the rescues were completed!

Why? The crime (and investigation) was the hi-jacking. The building collapse was an unfortunate consequence.

 

[DeathDart]

So, instead of focusing on what actually caused the collapse, you would have spent loads of time and tax payer's money on identifying every piece of steel in a huge pile of steel from multiple buildings?

The arrow of time prevents that. What I am saying is that calling this an investigation is a joke from a scientific point of view. This was just a story to cover something an innocuous as corruption. But to maintain that this was a thorough investigation, hah!

Think of the investigators as having to sneak into a junkyard and fight the junkyard dogs for the steel. That is closer to the reality.

 

[DeathDart]

And speaking of models, does anyone have a model showing the possible locations for the flight recorders before the buildings collapsed?

 

[DeathDart]

So how much of the planes did your fingertip searches recover? Not even titanium bolts? How about nickel iron alloys, some of the toughest (not hardess) alloys that exist?

 

[DGM]

And speaking of models, does anyone have a model showing the possible locations for the flight recorders before the buildings collapsed?

Why would you want to model that? Isn't external radar sources good enough to track the planes position. Do you think this was an accident with no cause?

 

[DGM]

So how much of the planes did your fingertip searches recover? Not even titanium bolts? How about nickel iron alloys, some of the toughest (not hardess) alloys that exist?

Are you saying there were no planes?

 

[uke2se]

The arrow of time prevents that. What I am saying is that calling this an investigation is a joke from a scientific point of view. This was just a story to cover something an innocuous as corruption. But to maintain that this was a thorough investigation, hah!

Think of the investigators as having to sneak into a junkyard and fight the junkyard dogs for the steel. That is closer to the reality.

Are you sure you understand what the term "investigation" means? Investigating something means looking for something. In this case, investigation of the steel was needed to determine what caused the collapse of the buildings. That was accomplished. There was absolutely zero need to use up billions of dollars and thousands of man hours to scour every piece of steel when you could determine the cause without doing so.

What you are suggesting isn't an investigation. It's an unwarranted and completely irresponsible use of public funds in order to complete a big puzzle just for the heck of it.

 

[DeathDart]

Actually I am learning skepticism from you, originally I would have said this was a plot of the Evil W.
But there is no proof one way or the other, and I can't prove malicious intent.

 

[DeathDart]

Are you saying there were no planes?

There were planes with people on them and a thorough finger tip inspection as has been described on this forum, would have found something from the planes.

There should have been 2 flight recorders on each flight.

A thorough finger tip inspection as has been described, would have found at least fragments of one, nada.

The statement that a thorough finger tip inspection as has been described by this forum, is untenable.

 

[DGM]

Actually I am learning skepticism from you, originally I would have said this was a plot of the Evil W.
But there is no proof one way or the other, and I can't prove malicious intent.

First thing you need to do is show there's reason to even think of "malicious intent". You started at the assumption of "malicious intent" and are desperately trying to fit in.

 

[leftysergeant]

And speaking of models, does anyone have a model showing the possible locations for the flight recorders before the buildings collapsed?

The path followed by any part of the aircraft through the building wouldl be too chaotic for most computer systems to trasck. A desk will divert an amazingly large piece of metal.

The black boxes are usually in the empanage, the part of the aircraft most likely to survive any crash. They would, thus, have ben pretty much in the center of the building when they ran out of energy. No way are they going to shoot out the other side like an engine component.

 

[NoahFence]

A real investigation would have shut down the WTC steel removal after the rescues were completed!

Er....

Just how do you complete the rescue / recovery without removing the steel?

 

[DGM]

There should have been 2 flight recorders on each flight.

There was. If you mean found, Why's that?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

NOT straight down through the path of most resistance.

Question: How does the structure absorb the energy of an impact from a 250,000 ton 20 story high section of building when the columns misalign and the only thing able to "catch" it is a 3 foot deep light weight floor system?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Er....

Just how do you complete the rescue / recovery without removing the steel?

Better question... why is he interested in flow patterns? How does the landing position of every single solitary steel member address the supposed cause of the collapse?

 

[DeathDart]

Are you sure you understand what the term "investigation" means? Investigating something means looking for something. In this case, investigation of the steel was needed to determine what caused the collapse of the buildings. That was accomplished. There was absolutely zero need to use up billions of dollars and thousands of man hours to scour every piece of steel when you could determine the cause without doing so.

What you are suggesting isn't an investigation. It's an unwarranted and completely irresponsible use of public funds in order to complete a big puzzle just for the heck of it.

10's of millions of dollars, and a lot of time. archaeology interns work cheap.

Actually my problem is Americans accepting the word of pathological liars in the White House.

From events triggered at WTC 0n 9-11 a whole lotta things got screwed up. Maybe this is just a case of White House pathology that they compulsively destroyed non-existent evidence. But this was an assembly line evidence destroying project, even if there was no evidence.

Put a FOIA in to NIST for clarification, now they might respond that they thought it was just political window dressing. W is going down.

 

[DeathDart]

Er....

Just how do you complete the rescue / recovery without removing the steel?

Moving steel to get people out can be corrected for manually, during the end state data entry. Once the rescues are completed you freeze the scene.

 

[DGM]

And speaking of models, does anyone have a model showing the possible locations for the flight recorders before the buildings collapsed?

Why would finding the boxes be a priority? The identity and the cause of the crash was known. This was not a mystery.