Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Sunstealer said:
I'll tell you now - that is wrong. That has been put into wiki by a truther. I'd like to see a citation for this from a scientific paper.

I love the way that clayton thinks thermite is some sort of wonder weapon. This stuff was used in WW1. http://www.freepyroinfo.com/Pyrotec...istry_Military_Explosives_Must_Have_Ebook.pdf

Clayton - please find a video of thermite burning for more than 20 minutes.

He doesn't realise that this is impossible let alone a 99 day thermite fire - lol.
Click to expand...

1
TM 9-1300-214
DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY TECHNICAL MANUAL
MILITARY
EXPLOSIVES
This copy is a reprint which includes current
pages from Changes 1 through 4.
HEADQUARTERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY
SEPTEMBER 1984
Click to expand...

Your link is dated 1984? Sufferin Orwell.
 
Sunstealer said:
I'll tell you now - that is wrong. That has been put into wiki by a truther. I'd like to see a citation for this from a scientific paper.
Click to expand...

In all fairness, one of the most useful forms of thermite that I learned to make contained sulphur and it could be placed against a vertical surface and it sliced through steel real good. You could duck-tape it to the columns. Of course you have to have it in direct contact with the steel and sheetrock would effectively block it and it leaves a pretty much indelible white crust on the metal around the cut and there would be a lot of greasy plaster shells of the charges lying all over the place.

Oh, and it needs a chemical igniter which can only be delivered by either a mechanical linkage or a degrading container of catalyst.

Not really that practical for discretely sabotaging a building.

Clayton - please find a video of thermite burning for more than 20 minutes.

He doesn't realise that this is impossible let alone a 99 day thermite fire - lol.
Click to expand...
A charge of my favorite thermate, formed in an 8 ounce styrofoam cup, burned for about thirty seconds and shot flames and sparks and ghastly white smoke almost as high as the top of the airfield control tower. The controlers complained because we did not warn them that they needed to wear shades if they looked at it.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Your link is dated 1984? Sufferin Orwell.
Click to expand...
So what? That was a source to show you that thermite was used in WW1 and is nothing special, super sekrit or magical. You don't actually know what thermite is do you? No amount of time is going to change what thermite is. In one million years the general thermite reaction

Fe2O3 + 2Al --> 2Fe + Al2O3 deltaH = -3.985 kJ/g

is still going to be the same. Doesn't matter if you make the particles nano-sized or mm sized the reaction is always the same and the deltaH can never be exceeded. You can believe that the military has managed to make some amazing version of the above but chemistry will prove you wrong.

How are you doing with that video showing thermite burning for 20 mins?
 
leftysergeant said:
In all fairness, one of the most useful forms of thermite that I learned to make contained sulphur and it could be placed against a vertical surface and it sliced through steel real good.
Click to expand...
Yep it will, but not because sulphur is forming a eutectic. Sulphur is added to lower the ignition temperature of the thermite and produce a flame which aids in destroying stuff by setting it alight.

The problem most people have when talking about eutectics and melting points is that they don't understand the significance of the phase change from solid to liquid and vice-a-versa.

Eg: Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel.

Well that statement is correct, but you have to think about what it's actually telling you and how that relates to the real world and when you can and can't apply it. So lets look at it once in the form of aliquid cooling and once in the form of a solid on heating.

Take a 0.2%C steel in it's liquid form say 1800°C. Add 5% sulphur in solid powder form to it. The sulphur will dissolve. The addition of sulphur will lower the temperature at which this new composition freezes. Note how I've not used MP even though the freezing point is the same temperature.

Take a 0.2%C steel in it's solid form say 25*°C. Add 5% sulphur to it. Err hold on, how do you do that? The steel is solid. The sulphur is solid. How on earth am I going to mix these two solids? Remember the catch phrase?

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!

OK lets heat it up to 300°C. Steel is still solid. Sulphur is still solid. Hows that sulphur lowering the MP of steel? It's not.

But, but

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!!!

Sulphur melts at 388°C. Boils at 444°C.

Now heat up to 1000°C. Damn the steel is still solid and the sulphur has now boiled. Still another 500°C to go before the steel will melt. How are we going to get the now gaseous sulphur ( S +O2 -->SO2 ) into the solid steel? How? How does thermite/mate magically do that? Remember:

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!!!Elebenty11111!!!

But it's not! It's not lowering the melting point of the steel in bulk at all is it - lol.

The process whereby gaseous sulphur will "mix" is called solid state diffusion, it only takes place at the very surface and will take a little time, far more than the minute or two that thermite has got.

And this is what the truthers don't understand. They don't understand the chemistry, they don't understand the metallurgy or the thermodynamics. I'd love to see them propose a mechanism for this solid powdered sulphur lowering the MP of solid steel in less than a few seconds, but they won't be able to because it's impossible in the short time frame.

The way in which thermite "cuts" through steel is by transferring heat from the thermite reaction products to the steel. Not by lowering the MP of that steel (by a slow mechanism) and then heating it. The thermite reaction is way too fast. The reaction virtually instantly creates temperatures higher than the steel's MP. There is no point in adding sulphur it simply doesn't have time to do what truthers claim it does.

There is a point if you wish to lower the ignition temperature and create more flames.

"Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel" is only applicable when sulphur has been introduced into the steel when the steel was already a liquid and has now solidified - e.g. during smelting and casting OR when solid state diffusion is occurring which takes time.
 
So I guess it's safe to say that you don't understand how military publications change and evolve over time either. Looking at the PDF in question the last change was in 1990. That changed two pages, two pages is nothing and is not going to add any new revelations of momentous proportions. I can find no reference to this particular manual being superseded by a more recent version.

You probably should read that PDF though. It explains exactly why your fantasies about explosives/incendiaries being used on 9/11 are not physically possible. Chapters 2, 3, 10 and 11 are probably the ones you should make sure to absorb but the other chapters probably wouldn't hurt either. Not that I expect that you will even bother.
 
Sam.I.Am said:
So I guess it's safe to say that you don't understand how military publications change and evolve over time either.
Click to expand...

I'd ask you to quote the post you're replying to so I'd know what you're talking about, but then I'd be able to read it and I know it would make my head hurt and probably kill off yet another iota of my faith in the essential decency of humanity. So maybe I'm better off just not knowing, right?

Dave
 
Sunstealer said:
Yep it will, but not because sulphur is forming a eutectic. Sulphur is added to lower the ignition temperature of the thermite and produce a flame which aids in destroying stuff by setting it alight.
Click to expand...

Actually, the only sulphur in my thermite charges was in the form of calcium sulphate. Mostly, it worked better because it burned a lot hotter.
 
Sam.I.Am said:
So I guess it's safe to say that you don't understand how military publications change and evolve over time either. Looking at the PDF in question the last change was in 1990. That changed two pages, two pages is nothing and is not going to add any new revelations of momentous proportions. I can find no reference to this particular manual being superseded by a more recent version.

You probably should read that PDF though. It explains exactly why your fantasies about explosives/incendiaries being used on 9/11 are not physically possible. Chapters 2, 3, 10 and 11 are probably the ones you should make sure to absorb but the other chapters probably wouldn't hurt either. Not that I expect that you will even bother.
Click to expand...

That didn't seem to be a TS or higher document. You are aware there are such things as military secrets?
 
Sunstealer said:
"Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel" is only applicable when sulphur has been introduced into the steel when the steel was already a liquid and has now solidified - e.g. during smelting and casting OR when solid state diffusion is occurring which takes time.
Click to expand...

I think I need some education myself on this topic. My (possibly mistaken) understanding of things is that a sulfidation attack does not actually lower the melting point of steel, but rather it creates a heterogenous compound in which other species are liquid, but the steel in it is not. Or in short, it's not the steel itself that melts, it's the iron sulfide and/or other compounds with lower melting points that do. In that, I think I'm describing your second scenario ("... when solid state diffusion is occuring..."), but if my understanding is off, please feel free to correct me. Am I right/wrong/somewhat screwy/honkin' 2 miles off my keister?

ETA: Note that I'm talking about a plain old sulfidation attack. I'm not talking a time-limited case of thermate use at this point. Rather, my question drew from my studies of the sulfidation attack on the WTC steel that the Worcester group conducted.
 
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Sunstealer said:
Yep it will, but not because sulphur is forming a eutectic. Sulphur is added to lower the ignition temperature of the thermite and produce a flame which aids in destroying stuff by setting it alight.

The problem most people have when talking about eutectics and melting points is that they don't understand the significance of the phase change from solid to liquid and vice-a-versa.

Eg: Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel.

Well that statement is correct, but you have to think about what it's actually telling you and how that relates to the real world and when you can and can't apply it. So lets look at it once in the form of aliquid cooling and once in the form of a solid on heating.

Take a 0.2%C steel in it's liquid form say 1800°C. Add 5% sulphur in solid powder form to it. The sulphur will dissolve. The addition of sulphur will lower the temperature at which this new composition freezes. Note how I've not used MP even though the freezing point is the same temperature.

Take a 0.2%C steel in it's solid form say 25*°C. Add 5% sulphur to it. Err hold on, how do you do that? The steel is solid. The sulphur is solid. How on earth am I going to mix these two solids? Remember the catch phrase?

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!

OK lets heat it up to 300°C. Steel is still solid. Sulphur is still solid. Hows that sulphur lowering the MP of steel? It's not.

But, but

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!!!

Sulphur melts at 388°C. Boils at 444°C.

Now heat up to 1000°C. Damn the steel is still solid and the sulphur has now boiled. Still another 500°C to go before the steel will melt. How are we going to get the now gaseous sulphur ( S +O2 -->SO2 ) into the solid steel? How? How does thermite/mate magically do that? Remember:

Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel!!!Elebenty11111!!!

But it's not! It's not lowering the melting point of the steel in bulk at all is it - lol.

The process whereby gaseous sulphur will "mix" is called solid state diffusion, it only takes place at the very surface and will take a little time, far more than the minute or two that thermite has got.

And this is what the truthers don't understand. They don't understand the chemistry, they don't understand the metallurgy or the thermodynamics. I'd love to see them propose a mechanism for this solid powdered sulphur lowering the MP of solid steel in less than a few seconds, but they won't be able to because it's impossible in the short time frame.

The way in which thermite "cuts" through steel is by transferring heat from the thermite reaction products to the steel. Not by lowering the MP of that steel (by a slow mechanism) and then heating it. The thermite reaction is way too fast. The reaction virtually instantly creates temperatures higher than the steel's MP. There is no point in adding sulphur it simply doesn't have time to do what truthers claim it does.

There is a point if you wish to lower the ignition temperature and create more flames.

"Sulphur lowers the melting point of steel" is only applicable when sulphur has been introduced into the steel when the steel was already a liquid and has now solidified - e.g. during smelting and casting OR when solid state diffusion is occurring which takes time.
Click to expand...

# oysteinbookmark

Thanks, that's clear down to laymen's level and will come in handy the next time some truther regurgitates this "sulfur in thermate lowers MP / Barnett's swiss cheese steel proves thermate" nonsense.
 
Clayton Moore said:
That didn't seem to be a TS or higher document. You are aware there are such things as military secrets?
Click to expand...

So what?
No matter how secret they make these military types of thermite, the thermodynamical laws of this universe still govern chemistry, and thus no military research can ever change the veracity of what sunstealer posted before:

Sunstealer said:
So what? That was a source to show you that thermite was used in WW1 and is nothing special, super sekrit or magical. You don't actually know what thermite is do you? No amount of time is going to change what thermite is. In one million years the general thermite reaction

Fe2O3 + 2Al --> 2Fe + Al2O3 deltaH = -3.985 kJ/g
is still going to be the same. Doesn't matter if you make the particles nano-sized or mm sized the reaction is always the same and the deltaH can never be exceeded. You can believe that the military has managed to make some amazing version of the above but chemistry will prove you wrong.

How are you doing with that video showing thermite burning for 20 mins?
Click to expand...

You probably have not the slightest clue what the above highlighted means.
I marked the energy released in the ideal case from ideal thermite. "Ideal" means that forever and ever, real thermite will release somewhat less energy per mass unit. The main variable that your weapons grade thermite can change is the reaction speed, or energy release per time unit - that's power. You have two choices here:
  • Increase reaction speed: This will increase power and probably increase temperature. This is one of the objectives of those working on nanothermite. This will naturally also make sure that your thermite is used up and stops burning earlier. So if the reaction of ordinary thermate is over after seconds, the reaction of nanothermite might be over with in fractions of a second. You are moving away from anything burning for 99 days
  • Decrease reaction speed: You could try to make the reaction procede slower. This will result in less power and lower temperature. So maybe the military creates a kind of thermate that burns for 99 days; it will be a very cool fire indeed. I could do the math for you, you would ignore it as you have not the capability to fiollow me, but my estimate would be that this slow-burning thermite would be hand warm, at most.

You can't have it both ways: Create a thermite that is both powerful and hot and burns for a long time.
Because that hilighted property, deltaH = -3.985 kJ/g, means that forever and ever in this universe, thermite will release less energy per mass unit than a nice piece of rumpsteak. It is basically a low-energy incendiary, compared to most organic things.
 
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I've created 21 YouTube videos rebutting Richard Gage's 9/11 Blueprint for Truth. Seven of them are up so far. Keywords on YouTube: Richard Gage Blueprint for Truth Rebuttal. Enjoy!

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Clayton Moore said:
That didn't seem to be a TS or higher document. You are aware there are such things as military secrets?
Click to expand...


Maybe the military has a plan to discredit the Truth Movement by having one their people pose as a Truther, saying nonsensical unsupported things on this forum? "Operation Loon Ranger", it might be called. No, don't bother trying to google it, it's TOP SECRET. Provide evidence that you're not this "Loon Ranger" or admit everything.

Fair's fair, I'm just trying to adopt your approach of inventing a theory and then "what if"-ing any evidence I need to support that theory. My theory also has the added benefit of not breaking any of the known laws of physics.

Have a safe and happy 4th!
 
ElMondoHummus said:
I think I need some education myself on this topic. My (possibly mistaken) understanding of things is that a sulfidation attack does not actually lower the melting point of steel, but rather it creates a heterogenous compound in which other species are liquid, but the steel in it is not. Or in short, it's not the steel itself that melts, it's the iron sulfide and/or other compounds with lower melting points that do. In that, I think I'm describing your second scenario ("... when solid state diffusion is occuring..."), but if my understanding is off, please feel free to correct me. Am I right/wrong/somewhat screwy/honkin' 2 miles off my keister?

ETA: Note that I'm talking about a plain old sulfidation attack. I'm not talking a time-limited case of thermate use at this point. Rather, my question drew from my studies of the sulfidation attack on the WTC steel that the Worcester group conducted.
Click to expand...
See highlighted section. That is exactly what happens with regard to sulphidation. The compound with the lower melting temperature occurs at the grain boundaries.
 
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