Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Take an engineering course and find out for yourself.

That would be so unfair. Look at yourself struggling against me. All you can do is keep asking me for the draft. Imagine if on top of that I had the added benefit of an engineering course!!! You'd be lost without hope.
 
That's the best part of it. I haven't even gotten so much into the matter to require any qualifications. Just common sense questions are raising all sorts of issues. Why do you want qualifications if you still can't answer the easy questions?

I'm not the one making extraordinary claims. I just want to know why you think that you are qualified to make judgments on these matters. Have you any qualifications? While I'm waiting for an answer,I will take heed of the real engineers and scientists here.
 
That would be so unfair. Look at yourself struggling against me. All you can do is keep asking me for the draft. Imagine if on top of that I had the added benefit of an engineering course!!! You'd be lost without hope.

No qualifications and no draft. Understood. Carry on groping in the dark.
 
I'm not the one making extraordinary claims.

You're right, actually you're not making any claims at all. Just asking for something you know I'm not going to give and you know the reasons for my restraining such release. So clearly you're clouding the discussion with a request that has been responded to. Why? Clearly because you can't answer simple questions I've put forward.
 
I think there is a good reason. To know how the building will collapse. Will it collapse fully? Will it stop midway? Will it topple over? I think these are important questions for WTC and other buildings of such great heights.

They initiated global collapse. Correct? At that point does it matter if only 60 stories rain down on the streets below or all 110? The building is a total loss. Loss of life, heavy. Their point was to find ways to stop global collapse or prolong survivability to enable evacuation of buildings and surrounding areas. This is about saving lives, not about defending the government from crack-pot theories.
 
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They initiated global collapse. Correct? At that point does it matter if only 60 stories rain down on the street below or all 110?

Sure does matter if you're a fire fighter in the lower 50 floors. You sure would want the collapse to stop and not continue to the ground floor. If you're someone with a building 3 blocks from the structure you don't want it falling on its side and right on top of your building.
 
Sure does matter if you're a fire fighter in the lower 50 floors. You sure would want the collapse to stop and not continue to the ground floor. If you're someone with a building 3 blocks from the structure you don't want it falling on its side and right on top of your building.

It's worthless. Buildings can be replaced. Lives cannot. To prevent or prolong collapse to ensure complete evacuation from a collapse zone is the best way to deal with this. Once the building is in danger, its job is to survive long enough. It's the engineers job to try to ensure that.

Firefighters won't try to save a structure that's evacuated and in serious trouble. They'll "pull" out to a safe distance...
 
Oh so the problem is money. NIST couldn't afford the simulation for this event? Such a terrible attack on America and NIST doesn't even have the equivalent of one or two Tomahawk missiles to pay for this simulation. Supposing that it really costs that much given present day technology.

Nice straw-man.

Personally I think such a simulation would reveal faults in NIST's report and that is the real cause for the lack of the simulations.

Again the bold. Why should we care what you believe?

The simulation would not fit with what was observed given the initial conditions provided by NIST

Really? And you know this how? Another one of your "feelings"?
 
Put a layer of dirt in the dump truck, put the molten steel/iron on it, douse with water or just allow it to cool.

You do realize that this is quite possibly the DUMBEST idea you have EVER posted, right? I'll give you a hint. THe dirt wouldn't protect the sides, and the steam explosions would blow molten steel all over creation.


Only a small percentage of the people on the pile have been interviewed. You refuse to believe the people who saw molten steel and would continue to do so no matter how many there were.

THe point is that you cannot identify a molten metal by sight alone.

It probably would ruin the buckets but not the machines.

Argument from personal ignorance noted.

You are calling Mark Loizeaux a liar, proving only that you will refuse to accept any evidence of molten steel

No, we're saying that he could not have identified molten steel by sight alone.
 
Oh so the problem is money. NIST couldn't afford the simulation for this event? Such a terrible attack on America and NIST doesn't even have the equivalent of one or two Tomahawk missiles to pay for this simulation. Supposing that it really costs that much given present day technology.

Personally I think such a simulation would reveal faults in NIST's report and that is the real cause for the lack of the simulations. The simulation would not fit with what was observed given the initial conditions provided by NIST.

Dear Mr Bean,

Let me explain a little bit about how pointless a simulation would be beyond the initiation event, and why even simulating an initiation event is extremely difficult.

To model WTC7 exactly what happened you would have to recreate what happened.

Starting with the building
- the loading
- as-built strength of steel, bolts , welds, connections etc within the range of possibles
- the distribution of solid objects in the building, that may have deflected or protected individual elements of connections
- the distribution of combustible material
- the built-in construction stresses
- strength of glass walls and brick and dry-wall partitions
- as-built thickness of fire protection in each location

Then when you are modelling the damage you need to consider:
- degree of damage
- additional loading from debris
- effect of oil to emergency generator system and how it was pumped into building
- structural strength of debris pile and how it loaded column, beams and girders.
- damage to fire protection

Then for the fire you need to consider:
-effect of fire fighting
- heating and cooling regimes for every element of steel
- exploding pipes, sealed containers, local collapses of walls, contents, stairs etc, etc
- distribution of fires, both temperature, time, energy and spread ( NIST did a very crude attempt at this, but of course many people have pointed out many other interpretations of what happened and how hot it was )

Then for the collapse you need to consider, all of the above elements in a dynamic sense:
- joints yielding, bolts shearing, joists collapsing, columns buckling
- temperature of all elements and their dynamic properties at these temperatures
- and every millisecond contents, damage, structure and debris, are moving ripping and yielding and coming into violent contact with other elements. While there are systems that can simulate these, the users know that beyond initiation, nothing is reliable.

And then what are we trying to match?
There is no consensus in what elements went first, how much damage there was before the penthouse failed,
How much internal collapse before the perimeter wall failed.

Can you imagine how basic the analysis was, that it didn't even assume that the damaged steel had any load or strength... they just assumed it disappeared. ( of course anything else they did could have been ridiculed ).

Every change has a consequence, so there is an infinite number of scenarios of what could happen. And there are many different assumptions that could lead to a collapse similar to the one observed.

So while the fire-fighters from intuition predicted that the building was going to come down, trying to get an analysis to come within an hour of the failure would be nigh on impossible, since there are an infinite number of variables. To a certain degree you have to start with what happened and see if you can make reasonable assumptions to reflect what happened. I am sure that is what Nist did.

Now modelling with explosives would be even more difficult you would have to get the correct charge time, the charge sizes, how the charges were welded to the columns, the location of the fire protection casing around the explosives, how the charges were effected by fire, the quantity of paint on thermite etc etc.

However if Nist said the collapse came from the failure of Col 179, then I am sure that the demolition could be achieved by blowing up the same column, at one level. Unfortunately our CD theory includes lots of thermite, blowing up the perimeter walls etc. But according to Nist if the people blew up WTC7 that way they would have had to have been very stupid, rather than very smart.
 
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You do realize that this is quite possibly the DUMBEST idea you have EVER posted, right? I'll give you a hint. THe dirt wouldn't protect the sides
Dumb is not being able to figure out that you could make a depression in the dirt for the molten steel.

and the steam explosions would blow molten steel all over creation.
I said "or just allow it to cool" but you ignored that part. Dumb is always jumping to the wrong conclusion and talking about how dumb it is.

THe point is that you cannot identify a molten metal by sight alone.
Molten metal dripping from a steel beam is most likely steel. :rolleyes: Chris' wishful thinking notwithstanding.[molten aluminum is silvery in daylight]

C7 said:
It probably would ruin the buckets but not the machines.
Argument from personal ignorance noted.
Speak for yourself. I have worked with back hoes and the like, albeit much smaller. They are very robust and quite capable of scooping up molten metal and surviving. The bucket would probably be ruined but not from melting. The bucket and the arm could be cooled with water after dumping each scoop. So cut the denial diatribe. You don't know diddly squat about heavy equipment. It ain't fragile.

There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators
Mark Loizeaux
The idea that molten steel could be "dipped" out by an excavator bucket is laughable.

Total joke
C7 said:
You are calling Mark Loizeaux a liar, proving only that you will refuse to accept any evidence of molten steel
No, we're saying that he could not have identified molten steel by sight alone.
He said it was steel because it's bloody obvious. You are calling him an idiot at best. Who the heck do you think you are? It takes a lot of chutzpah to say all these people are wrong, especially when there are no viable alternatives. Did I mention that molten aluminum is silvery in daylight? Do you understand that?
 
Dumb is not being able to figure out that you could make a depression in the dirt for the molten steel.

I said "or just allow it to cool" but you ignored that part. Dumb is always jumping to the wrong conclusion and talking about how dumb it is.

Molten metal dripping from a steel beam is most likely steel. :rolleyes: Chris' wishful thinking notwithstanding.[molten aluminum is silvery in daylight]

Speak for yourself. I have worked with back hoes and the like, albeit much smaller. They are very robust and quite capable of scooping up molten metal and surviving. The bucket would probably be ruined but not from melting. The bucket and the arm could be cooled with water after dumping each scoop. So cut the denial diatribe. You don't know diddly squat about heavy equipment. It ain't fragile.

He said it was steel because it's bloody obvious. You are calling him an idiot at best. Who the heck do you think you are? It takes a lot of chutzpah to say all these people are wrong, especially when there are no viable alternatives. Did I mention that molten aluminum is silvery in daylight? Do you understand that?

That is on heck of an alternate reality. :eye-poppi
 
Telltale tom, surpasses all of the thinking ever done by AE911 in the last 10 years in a single post...
 
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Take care - asking "WHAT DOES IT PROVE?" runs the risk - however slight - that discussion may get back on the topic.

The goal of a truther-troll is to keep the discussion circling indefinitely and ensuring zero progress. Whether or not the specific t-t is capable of answering or has no idea is totally irrelevant. The only room for variance is that some t-t's can make the game amusing because everyone knows it is a game.

Hence it does not need to prove anything and it is better if it doesn't...
..as long as the original question and the reason for taking the first side track and the second and the third.....etc is lost sight of.

Until you arrive at "If there wasn't something to it you wouldn't still be talking about it" thereby making the argument itself proof of the argument.
 
Unfortunately our CD theory includes lots of thermite, blowing up the perimeter walls etc.

Really? I'd swear I'm getting hammered for not posting my theory. At least that's what I understand dafydd keeps saying. So tell me where did you read that? Where you in my house without my knowledge? Are you hacking into my laptop? Or is this just a typical kneejerk reaction on your part and you're assuming that is what I said.

dafydd, see what I mean by the importance of not publishing my theory yet? Otherwise we'd end up in infinite spin cycles with folks like Tom here who believes I said something which I haven't. With your help dafydd I now don't have to spend endless hours going back to my posts and reminding people I didn't say such a thing.
 
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