ozeco41
Philosopher
As I said earlier if you believe those things then why waste time peddling lies about molten steel and all the other technical nonsense. You simply destroy your own credibility.
Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread
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My credibility means absolutely nothing in the real world. In today's age of talking heads on network news, politicians, corruption in all places normally in the past considered credible, I doubt any one here on this entire forum is considered credible enough to be considered absolutely trustworthy.
I'm trying to provoke real critical thinking about 9/11. I seriously investigate everyone claim, opinion and sources given to me. I try not to take things personal or show partiality while I investigate the evidence. I really have no ego in trying to present my case, in fact I try not to hope too much that you are correct.
I really want to believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job. However my investigation does not yet lend itself to me that this position is valid regardless of what my personal hope is. I would rather all of you be right and that I be wrong, however your facts and the facts of others have not yet convinced me. I want to be convinced, just as you.
I fight the emotions of it all the time, my investigation of this cannot be personal, yet sometimes I like any person I yield foolishly to my emotions and frustrations. You can never do that if your going to remain serious about having all the truth concerning 9/11 and the investigation of it to the best of your ability.
I'm not trying to win, I'm still learning how to lose. I want to lose this argument with all my being.
But at the same time I'm trying to share why I believe what I believe about 9/11. I share it because I believe it, that does not mean I will not change my mind if I'm convinced otherwise based on the standards that I believe I have fairly established for myself.
I'm not perfect, but I try my best to look at every possibility and try to make sense out of it. I cannot live with only just one fact, or two facts or even three. I have to have every question answered that compels me.
That may no longer be possible being 10 years post 9/11, but what I know today causes me to write what I write, and share 9/11 how I see it, right or wrong.
Credibility if I have any is to share everything I know, whether right or wrong. Because the only thing that matters when it is all over is whether or not I was really truthful and fair with all the evidence and all the opinions I was given by others.
If I allowed basis or let my personal emotions and opinions cloud my final position on 9/11, then I have failed myself. I have no final position on 9/11 from a future standpoint. I have only what I know today. Tomorrow is another day which means my position under the right circumstances could very well change.
alienentity
Illuminator
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that's an honest admission, and true. Your opinion also means very little unless it is based on something factual. So far things don't look good for your positions.
This is one of your successes. Congratulations.
ozeco41
Philosopher
you have a funny way of showing it. Come back when you decide to be serious.
dafydd
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Give him a couple of rocks and some dry grass and he might be able to discover fire.
Justin39640
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FYI: Fuel is always a liquid in its tank or container (including LPG). In a carburetor, it's a liquid until it reaches the venturi. Injectors atomize the fuel as well. Striking a large building at 500+ MPH is a good way to atomize and distribute fuel. That doesn't mean it will ignite instantly the second it leaves the tanks. It will go anywhere the air carries it, including down the shafts.
Edx
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twinstead
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Grizzly Bear
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Wow, there's been a party in this thread since I last posted in here. C7 trying to explain the building codes without reading them, and Clayton's "expertise" on planes.
W.D.Clinger
Philosopher
Nor should it.
Nor should they be considered absolutely trustworthy. Everyone makes mistakes.
Some people make more mistakes than others. Much depends on how you go about it. Some research methods are more likely to yield error than knowledge.
You're succeeding in that, even as you complain about the critical thinking you provoke.
You're sharing your beliefs the same way you share your religious beliefs (as expressed on the home page you've listed).
That's not convincing. When discussing historical events, you need historical evidence. When discussing technical matters, you need a technical foundation.
So you want an A for effort?
You're trying hard, but you don't know how.
The critical thinking you're trying to provoke rejects worthless arguments because they're more likely to impede our search for truth than to increase our knowledge.
Sabretooth
No Ordinary Rabbit
It's cute that you think these are valid questions...how about these:
Have you taken physics at any level? How about Fire Science?
A couple thousand gallons of fuel are poured into an 80 story hole...what makes you think the fuel wouldn't gradually atomize as it fell? What makes you think the whole supply would be used up before hitting the bottom floor?
What book on earth has vapor sticking to walls?
Do you realize how dumb you sound?
Sorry, but I cannot recognize a scientist in the posted video, I only hear a physics teacher telling nonsense.
dafydd
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The Darth Vapor Boy's Book Of Science?
I have read a large portion of Ray Mackey's papers and watched a few of his interviews. His work is by far the most consistent and through. However I still see a lot of, if this was stress tested, or if this steel was certified at 2,000 degrees, or not. Or if this situation was this or that, then it could account for this. So because of this I'm still not convinced simply because many of the investigators presenting their arguments seem have a clear problem on agreeing on an absolute starting point. So I revert back to absolutes I know for sure. Metals melting points, building records, structural history and of course the other factors that are related from a larger picture such as the Pentagon lack of debris, 3 trillion dollars missing by misappropriation before 9/11 and all this rest.
You know as Ray said in respect to evil genius, my twist on this is maybe they did a really bad job in covering up 9/11 ON PURPOSE. This way they would have so many people debating it on so many different variants and levels, the people would just burn themselves out and never come to the truth about 9/11. To me that would be evil genius
I have read the comments to me and I can tell some of you have some pretty unbelievable claims. I did not come here proclaiming that I was an expert. But I did give you a video from an expert that is held in high esteem by millions of people, as well of thousands of engineers and scientists. Just as Mackey is held in high regard in his circles. But I have nothing to read as far as serious reviews of that material. Not even good links, so carry on.
You know as Ray said in respect to evil genius, my twist on this is maybe they did a really bad job in covering up 9/11 ON PURPOSE. This way they would have so many people debating it on so many different variants and levels, the people would just burn themselves out and never come to the truth about 9/11. To me that would be evil genius
I have read the comments to me and I can tell some of you have some pretty unbelievable claims. I did not come here proclaiming that I was an expert. But I did give you a video from an expert that is held in high esteem by millions of people, as well of thousands of engineers and scientists. Just as Mackey is held in high regard in his circles. But I have nothing to read as far as serious reviews of that material. Not even good links, so carry on.
triforcharity
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dafydd
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It just shows you the standard of scientific thought that truthers bring to the debate. What did these people do in school? How can it enter their heads that anyone but another science-proof truther would take them seriously? The steam that sticks to my bathroom wall is three inches thick sometimes,I have to scrape it off with a palette knife. There's an old Scottish tale about it getting so cold that they had to shovel the smoke up the chimney. Truthers,heed my words. It's only a story!!
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JohnG
Pedantic Bore
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A hypothetical question to all who believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job.
If you found out without any doubt that you were wrong, then what would your next action be other than conceding that point. Remember this is a hypothetical question only.
The reason I ask this is because your position as a debunker requires nothing further of you politically or personally. If you are correct then all is well and there is no need for any further discussion. However if the 9/11 truther is correct, then they have to ultimately take action politically to make change. To do nothing invites further deceptions and murders and ultimately the end of freedom to even discuss anything at all, let alone government corruption.
So if you found out someday you were wrong and 9/11 was in fact an inside job how would you deal with it differently than the current 9/11 truthers.
A hypothetical question to all who believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job.
If you found out without any doubt that you were wrong, then what would your next action be other than conceding that point. Remember this is a hypothetical question only.
The reason I ask this is because your position as a debunker requires nothing further of you politically or personally. If you are correct then all is well and there is no need for any further discussion. However if the 9/11 truther is correct, then they have to ultimately take action politically to make change. To do nothing invites further deceptions and murders and ultimately the end of freedom to even discuss anything at all, let alone government corruption.
So if you found out someday you were wrong and 9/11 was in fact an inside job how would you deal with it differently than the current 9/11 truthers.
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ozeco41
Philosopher
Eschat it is not one question "9/11 inside job or not" There are many aspects to 9/11 and there could well be aspects of "inside job" in the government actions on and related to the day.
Taking the one example that you have rejected multiple times already. If you include demolition of WTC buildings as part of the "inside job" the simple fact is that there was no demolition so your claim of inside job is dead at the starting line whilst ever you persist in your all inclusive approach to "inside job" as if it was a single entity.
I would not be at all surprised if there were aspects of Government conduct which were wrong and need correction. But the WTC towers were not demolished so demolition of the towers could not be an inside job OR part of any overall packaging of all government actions as one single "inside job".
I hold no formed opinion as to whether there were corruption/collusion aspects in the relevant government actions. I am satisfied as to the true facts of the four/ five main technical questions of 9/11. I have no opinion on the collusion/conspiracy aspects. So your loaded question of "...all who believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job." is illogical. Like the classic "have you stopped beating your wife?" is is a falsely structured question which cannot be answered either way.
I don't "...believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job" I know that demolition of WTC, shoot down of the plane at Shanksville and fly past at the Pentagon are all easily demonstrably false claims. I have no confidence that all Government actions were perfectly correct. I doubt that 'perfectly correct' is even definable.
Taking the one example that you have rejected multiple times already. If you include demolition of WTC buildings as part of the "inside job" the simple fact is that there was no demolition so your claim of inside job is dead at the starting line whilst ever you persist in your all inclusive approach to "inside job" as if it was a single entity.
I would not be at all surprised if there were aspects of Government conduct which were wrong and need correction. But the WTC towers were not demolished so demolition of the towers could not be an inside job OR part of any overall packaging of all government actions as one single "inside job".
I hold no formed opinion as to whether there were corruption/collusion aspects in the relevant government actions. I am satisfied as to the true facts of the four/ five main technical questions of 9/11. I have no opinion on the collusion/conspiracy aspects. So your loaded question of "...all who believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job." is illogical. Like the classic "have you stopped beating your wife?" is is a falsely structured question which cannot be answered either way.
I don't "...believe that 9/11 was NOT an inside job" I know that demolition of WTC, shoot down of the plane at Shanksville and fly past at the Pentagon are all easily demonstrably false claims. I have no confidence that all Government actions were perfectly correct. I doubt that 'perfectly correct' is even definable.
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Joey McGee
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First you find the facts, then you figure out what to do with them. If 9/11 Truth is correct, obviously, the rational thing to do would be expose it.
To say "your role as a debunker requires nothing of you" is nonsensical. Each person has their own view of the facts about reality, and they govern themselves accordingly. We think 9/11 truth is pathological and debunking it is good for society, like debunking homeopathy or psychics. It requires a lot.
Looking forward to your rebuttal to my last post here, now buried behind pages of nonsensical debate about aluminum turning to ash.
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