Conservatives? What did Reverend Wright say that was so wrong?

[varwoche]

There's a long and proud tradition of god-damning America. And that's my excuse for posting (yet again) the greatest protest song ever, Compared to What, performed by the incredibly cool Les McCann and written by Gene McDaniels. Lyrics kick in at 2:00.

 

[AvalonXQ]

The "not an African American" comment is based on the point that Obama is not a descendant of American black slaves -- he doesn't share that heritage that is so core to black identity in the US.

Obama is the child of a free black African and a free white American. He identifies as black, and he certainly is physically black and literally African and American. But free Africans that move to the US are very different, culturally, from Americans of black heritage.

 

[RandFan]

What wright said was inflammatory but I understand his point. I'm not sure most people who are outraged (outraged I tel ya) do or that they care.

 

[RandFan]

A white preacher saying that to a group that included a white guy running for president would not have been given a pass, I think.

• Obama wasn't given a pass.
• McCain's pastor problems (anti semitism, praise of Hitler).
• The press has done little to nothing about the fact that Romney's Church has a racist past (among other things).

 

[Regnad Kcin]

From what I can gather, his fault was blaming 9/11 on our country's history of tolerating slavery, segregation, and civil rights abuses, whereas he should have blamed it on our toleration of gays and feminists like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Robertson and Falwell gay, and feminist too? Well, my lands!

 

[cwalner]

The "not an African American" comment is based on the point that Obama is not a descendant of American black slaves -- he doesn't share that heritage that is so core to black identity in the US.

Obama is the child of a free black African and a free white American. He identifies as black, and he certainly is physically black and literally African and American. But free Africans that move to the US are very different, culturally, from Americans of black heritage.

This came up about 12 years ago when Colin Powell was briefly considering running. I recall him stating that he did not identify as African-American for that very reason, since he was the son of Jamaican immigrants.

However, Obama might have had very different experiences and reactions to them than Powell. Since Obama was not raised by his father, like Powell, he only had to go by how he was treated by the rest of society, who would have only seen his skin color and not really cared how he came by it. I don't find it at all odd that Obama therefore identifies as African-American

 

[Tricky]

The "not an African American" comment is based on the point that Obama is not a descendant of American black slaves -- he doesn't share that heritage that is so core to black identity in the US.

Obama is the child of a free black African and a free white American. He identifies as black, and he certainly is physically black and literally African and American. But free Africans that move to the US are very different, culturally, from Americans of black heritage.

Yes, this came up in 2008. As I recall, there was a big flap on Oprah about how Obama was "not black enough". And it is true, he isn't decended from a heritage of slavery. But you know, blacks have figured out that he is going to be more in touch with their issues than, oh let's say, the pampered millionaire son of another millionaire. But there is certainly one group that considers him "black enough". Racists.

 

[RandFan]

This came up about 12 years ago when Colin Powell was briefly considering running. I recall him stating that he did not identify as African-American for that very reason, since he was the son of Jamaican immigrants.

However, Obama might have had very different experiences and reactions to them than Powell. Since Obama was not raised by his father, like Powell, he only had to go by how he was treated by the rest of society, who would have only seen his skin color and not really cared how he came by it. I don't find it at all odd that Obama therefore identifies as African-American

How do racists distinguish between African-Americans and blacks? IMO: If you grew black in America then I'm fine with whatever title you or your admirers want to label you.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Since Obama was not raised by his father, like Powell, he only had to go by how he was treated by the rest of society, who would have only seen his skin color and not really cared how he came by it. I don't find it at all odd that Obama therefore identifies as African-American

It makes sense to me as well. If Obama grew up in the US and was treated like an American black, then in practice he has the same formative experiences as other American blacks and it's reasonable for him to identify as one.

 

[truethat]

As a NYer who was down at Ground Zero the day after 911 doing volunteer work, I would say that anyone who wasn't involved and wasn't there helping to be arm chair quarterbacking and making comments about things that were using 911 for the purposes of politics is disgusting. Politics or religion.

Using the dead as a platform to push a cause has always seemed in poor form. Calling the murder of someone "justice" in any way shape or form just is hideous.

There were babies on those planes going to Disney and sitting next to their mothers who knew that they were going to die. It is inconceivable to me that someone is willing to ride through that battlefield to score some points with their parish.

It's no different to me than someone pointing out the debbil in the clouds, or using it to judge Arab Muslims, or bringing up Israel or anything at all even "Chicken Soup for the Soul" survivor stories where men are all choked up because they took their kid to school that day and missed the train and so God saved them for being a good father.

All sorts of things like that, not just Reverend Wright come across as tacky opportunistic piggishness.

 

[RandFan]

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire

The video below is Hitchens take on unpopular speech. The outrage should be directed at the arguments and not the fact that people are speaking about things we don't like.

 

[AvalonXQ]

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Voltaire

The video below is Hitchens take on unpopular speech. The outrage should be directed at the arguments and not the fact that people are speaking about things we don't like.

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post. Is anyone here really advocating that we should criminalize hateful, sanctomonious, anti-American drivel, or that it should be illegal for Wright to say what he did? I don't think anyone has said that.

What some people have said is that the rest of us don't have to like people like this, or give them a pass when they or their supporters run for office.

Fred Phelps also has every right to say what he says, but I'm not electing him governor any time soon.

Freedom from criminal prosecution and censorship for speech, does not translate to freedom from social and political consequences for speech.

 

[dc1971]

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post. Is anyone here really advocating that we should criminalize hateful, sanctomonious, anti-American drivel, or that it should be illegal for Wright to say what he did? I don't think anyone has said that.

What I'm still trying to figure out is what Wright said that was so wrong and why it's such a big deal.

Any ideas?

 

[RandFan]

Attack the arguments not the arguer.

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post. Is anyone here really advocating that we should criminalize hateful, sanctomonious, anti-American drivel, or that it should be illegal for Wright to say what he did? I don't think anyone has said that.

What some people have said is that the rest of us don't have to like people like this, or give them a pass when they or their supporters run for office.

Fred Phelps also has every right to say what he says, but I'm not electing him governor any time soon.

Freedom from criminal prosecution and censorship for speech, does not translate to freedom from social and political consequences for speech.

I'm simply advocating on behalf of speech and suggesting a better strategy. It is protected speech to say that Fred Phelps is disgusting. I'm trying to propagate the idea that speech, even speech we find repugnant, is by and large inherently good for the progress of society.

I don't think it is in our best interest for citizens to adopt and propagate the idea that under some circumstances some people should not speak. Though to be sure, it's their right.

 

[Newtons Bit]

I'm not sure I understand the point of your post. Is anyone here really advocating that we should criminalize hateful, sanctomonious, anti-American drivel, or that it should be illegal for Wright to say what he did? I don't think anyone has said that.

What some people have said is that the rest of us don't have to like people like this, or give them a pass when they or their supporters run for office.

Fred Phelps also has every right to say what he says, but I'm not electing him governor any time soon.

Freedom from criminal prosecution and censorship for speech, does not translate to freedom from social and political consequences for speech.

Indeed. Some people don't understand that freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism. Wright is a hatemonger and deserves to be derided as such.

 

[TruthersLie]

What I'm still trying to figure out is what Wright said that was so wrong and why it's such a big deal.

Any ideas?

Because we want to be the hero's and the victims at the same time.
We want to be the hero's of the world (look at any US history book about things like WWI, WWII and a whole host of other issues). We want to be the nationalistic hero's.

We also want to be able to sit back and say that we were completely victimized on 9/11 and to be able to draw upon that anger and disgust.

Most Americans are woefully uneducated on things like history, political science, our own international actions and how we are viewed by other countries around the world. We like the idea of being a maverick cowboy who is the good guy.

So by having Wright say things like "God Damn America" in conjunction with 9/11 and trying to take away our self righteous anger about it, it pissed off and scared ignorant people. (that is in conjunction with all of the other things he said about how bad america is.)

I am reminded of the quote by Churchill

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.

In a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947

Now change democracy to the USA. When you touch upon things that affect the mass psyche (like the murder of 3000 citizens) and you then BLAME THE VICTIM, it pisses people off. Even if (arguably) we did deserve it for our past actions.

As for the other issues. Can you honestly tell me that if you are socialized in a family or place for 20 years, that it will NOT affect your POV?

So if it affected his POV, does this mean he BLAMES the US for 9/11? Now follow that to the logical conclusion. What does that tell us about the person we elected president. Will he be apologetic and kiss ass everywhere, or will he **MAN UP** and be a strong president?

I think all of that is what blew the comments up to the proportion they got to.

Kind of like how Bill Maher got fired from ABC for saying that the terrorists on 9/11 were kinda admirable for their dedication and conviction.

 

[RandFan]

Because we want to be the hero's and the victims at the same time.
We want to be the hero's of the world (look at any US history book about things like WWI, WWII and a whole host of other issues). We want to be the nationalistic hero's.

We also want to be able to sit back and say that we were completely victimized on 9/11 and to be able to draw upon that anger and disgust.

Most Americans are woefully uneducated on things like history, political science, our own international actions and how we are viewed by other countries around the world. We like the idea of being a maverick cowboy who is the good guy.

So by having Wright say things like "God Damn America" in conjunction with 9/11 and trying to take away our self righteous anger about it, it pissed off and scared ignorant people. (that is in conjunction with all of the other things he said about how bad america is.)

I am reminded of the quote by Churchill


Now change democracy to the USA. When you touch upon things that affect the mass psyche (like the murder of 3000 citizens) and you then BLAME THE VICTIM, it pisses people off. Even if (arguably) we did deserve it for our past actions.

As for the other issues. Can you honestly tell me that if you are socialized in a family or place for 20 years, that it will NOT affect your POV?

So if it affected his POV, does this mean he BLAMES the US for 9/11? Now follow that to the logical conclusion. What does that tell us about the person we elected president. Will he be apologetic and kiss ass everywhere, or will he **MAN UP** and be a strong president?
I think all of that is what blew the comments up to the proportion they got to.

Kind of like how Bill Maher got fired from ABC for saying that the terrorists on 9/11 were kinda admirable for their dedication and conviction.

Good post until the highlighted part. I've not seen any kissing ass. Going into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden was not kissing the ass of Pakistan. Launching drones into Yemen, Pakistan and other nations while ignoring the pleas of Islamic leaders isn't kissing ass. And the whole "apology tour" nonsense was special pleading and lies.

Otherwise, good post.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Good post until the highlighted part. I've not seen any kissing ass. Going into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden was not kissing the ass of Pakistan. Launching drones into Yemen, Pakistan and other nations while ignoring the pleas of Islamic leaders isn't kissing ass.

Obama's been a decent Commander-in-Chief.

 

[TruthersLie]

Good post until the highlighted part. I've not seen any kissing ass. Going into Pakistan to kill Bin Laden was not kissing the ass of Pakistan. Launching drones into Yemen, Pakistan and other nations while ignoring the pleas of Islamic leaders isn't kissing ass. And the whole "apology tour" nonsense was special pleading and lies.

Otherwise, good post.

Monday morning quarterbacking.

In 2008 (the OP), we had the choice of a rather young senator from Illinois, a former first lady or a former maverick who sold out....

This untested and rather young senator from Illinois had very little information available about him. So in 2008, the question was brought up about his personal connections and what those connections said about him.

He sat in that church for 20 years... If he objected, he would have left the church. It is that old saw about judging a person by the people he associates with. So we have Wright blaming the US for getting attacked on 9/11 (which any serious historian will agree... we do have some blame there for our international actions). But to the masses, this wasn't a valid criticism because it attacked our collective national victimhood.

At the same time, we had the associations with Bill Ayres and other VERY left leaning individuals. Now combine those ideologies together and what kinds of assumptions (yes it does make an ASS out of U and MPTION) can we make about this young untested and unknown senator?

That was the real issue brought up. Is he going to be a pussy and apologize for being American (ie the world apology tour, which BTW he kinda did), or is he going to be ***MAN*** and go out and kick ass and chew bubble gum.

It really was a question about his manhood and his ideology.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Now we have the choice between a former Illinois senator who's shown no left-leaning inclinations over the last four years, and a former governor who is STILL a member of a church that institutionalized racism until just a couple decades ago, one which he could have left at any time (if he objected).