Conservatives? What did Reverend Wright say that was so wrong?

[Ausmerican]

Please understand Avalon, I agree with Tricky, I think you're a nice guy.
I also think that even when I dont agree with you politically and religiously (which is pretty often) that you carry yourself and the discussion forward with manners and intelligence.
That is why it is so jarring when a usually intelligent, rational person makes a statement of textbook bigotry. Especially one that really cannot be supported with the reason and intelligence they generally use.

 

[TruthersLie]

After you point out where I said my post had anything to do with you, instead of the several posts here that *did* label Wright's speech as 'racist'.

And then after that you can point out where I said that Wright was a racist, as you just claimed I projected.

I won't be holding my breath.

So then I read into your post after FOUR of mine where I attempted to answer the OP.

Then you reply, no answer to the OP except for people calling wrights speech racist...

nothing to see there... absolutely NO connection.... none whatsoever... nope.

Since you didn't ADDRESS any of those posters names/statements, then it is a valid inference that you were replying to mine. If not, then I apologize, but since it was a snarky reply after 4 of mine, it isn't a very big logical jump to who you were trying to talk down to.

p.s. I didn't say you were a claiming he was a racist... I was saying you were PROJECTING the view you were attacking on me. If there was a miscommunication, then oops.

 

[TruthersLie]

Let's grant you the premise. Is being a congregant necessarily nontrivial? And if church is theological are ideological view points by necessity nontrivial?

If you share a pew/church with someone for 20 years... you either are very lazy, afraid to disagree with them or agree with them.

so which one was obama?

Again, let's accept that, so then it logically follows that all congregants share the very same beliefs? More importantly, that congregants are less likely to share identical ideological beliefs than theological ones. Nearly all evangelical Christians believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, they aren't all Republicans.

False choice dichotomy. The very same beliefs? Don't be daft. Similar ideological beliefs? Well if you sit with them a day a week for 20 years, you must have had some similar beliefs cuz if you didn't, you'd have left.

Yes (it was church. I only attended the temple on certain occasions). She made me attend until I didn't need her to make me. Which was probably in my teens.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. I was a Mormon for more than 30 years and there was much I didn't like and much I disagreed with.

first childhood doesn't count. As a child you don't have the opportunity to actively disagree and protest what you dislike.
Even as a teenager, I'd make the claim you still want the approval of your parents and others around you, so you'd 'make the best of a bad sitaution' and go but look for other things.

And you still made the CHOICE about the things you didn't like. You CHOOSE to leave the mormon church. That is a CHOICE that Obama apparently was a. too lazy to make, b. to afraid to make, c. didn't have the political will to make or d. wasn't bothered too much about it. If there is an e, f, or g please let me know.

See, here is the point. Belief and attendance to a church isn't about complete agreement. It might surprise some people to find out that congregants are diverse with different view points.

Yes they are. But if you have a church that is espousing many of the views that Wright and other pastors espoused and it offended you, you'd go to another church. Please show me where Obama made this choice or stand???

I'm sure there would be records of it.... right?

As I said before... any honest examination of many of the things Wright said are somewhat historically accurate/ valid descriptions as viewed by the working/lower class blacks who feel victimized (validly in some cases and not so validly in others) based on the US governments actions. Many of the things that Wright said on record are said in "black" churches across the country often.

 

[DavidJames]

If you share a pew/church with someone for 20 years... you either are very lazy, afraid to disagree with them or agree with them...The very same beliefs? Don't be daft. Similar ideological beliefs? Well if you sit with them a day a week for 20 years, you must have had some similar beliefs cuz if you didn't, you'd have left.

How should I put it, oh yeah here ya go

False choice dichotomy.

Edit - I've gone to church regularly with my wife for over 35 years. For many of those years I shared little, sometimes very little, ideological beliefs with the pastor. There are many many reasons why I continue. Reasons you may not understand or agree with, but are valid for me. Please don't pretend to know what motivates people you don't know.

 

[TruthersLie]

How should I put it, oh yeah here ya go


Edit - I've gone to church regularly with my wife for over 35 years. For many of those years I shared little, sometimes very little, ideological beliefs with the pastor. There are many many reasons why I continue. Reasons you may not understand or agree with, but are valid for me. Please don't pretend to know what motivates people you don't know.

Please tell me where I said I agree with that criticism? I didn't then, and don't now. Please stay on topic. The OP asked what and why the things that Wright said was so wrong...

I have given you the reason that many on the right/conservatives were upset by what Wright said.

As for your going to church for 35 years and having little ideological beliefs with the pastor and staying, then you made a CHOICE...

did your pastor say things that you found "deeply offensive" as Obama said about Wrights statements? If you did and you stayed, then don't you think that makes some very interesting insights into your personality?

If it was "deeply offensive" and something that you deeply disagree with, would you still go to that church?

 

[crimresearch]

So then I read into your post after FOUR of mine where I attempted to answer the OP.

Then you reply, no answer to the OP except for people calling wrights speech racist...

nothing to see there... absolutely NO connection.... none whatsoever... nope.

Since you didn't ADDRESS any of those posters names/statements, then it is a valid inference that you were replying to mine. If not, then I apologize, but since it was a snarky reply after 4 of mine, it isn't a very big logical jump to who you were trying to talk down to.

p.s. I didn't say you were a claiming he was a racist... I was saying you were PROJECTING the view you were attacking on me. If there was a miscommunication, then oops.

Saying 'non-issue' isn't an 'answer' to the OP question in the context I used.

And you might want to lose the notion that everything here is all about you, or that any particular post is directly replying to something you may or may not have said pages ago.

 

[TruthersLie]

You might want to go back and look at the posts for clarification. I made 4 posts and then you replied snarkily about how then no one can answer the OP.

Sorry if I made the (perfectly logical) conclusion that you were referring to my statements. if not, then oops.

Next time if you are talking to someone, maybe you should include their names so it is easier to see who you are talking to..... unless general snarky comments are what you are trying to post.

 

[RandFan]

If you share a pew/church with someone for 20 years... you either are very lazy, afraid to disagree with them or agree with them.

so which one was obama?

You've excluded a lot of options. One being that he may not have felt it warranted vocal disagreement. I sure as hell don't think it does.

False choice dichotomy.

What is the dichotomy?

The very same beliefs? Don't be daft. Similar ideological beliefs? Well if you sit with them a day a week for 20 years, you must have had some similar beliefs cuz if you didn't, you'd have left.

Yes, you are simply making my argument. Similar isn't the same. I didn't accept the misogyny and racism of Mormonism. This is not a difficult concept. As an adult I sat silent for at least 10 years about misogyny and racism in the Church. Religions persist because they are good at providing a community and fostering relationships. Those who speak out can lose those relationships. I was worried about losing the love of my family and friends. My wife and I discussed the consequences and it was a difficult choice. It caused a lot of pain and hardships and in the end we were ostracized and shunned by many. And in the case of Obama, I don't know if it was worth it. Each person must make that decision on their own. I certainly don't think there was a need to speak out.

first childhood doesn't count. As a child you don't have the opportunity to actively disagree and protest what you dislike.
Even as a teenager, I'd make the claim you still want the approval of your parents and others around you, so you'd 'make the best of a bad sitaution' and go but look for other things.

And you still made the CHOICE about the things you didn't like. You CHOOSE to leave the mormon church. That is a CHOICE that Obama apparently was a. too lazy to make, b. to afraid to make, c. didn't have the political will to make or d. wasn't bothered too much about it. If there is an e, f, or g please let me know.

I was 30 when I made the choice. You are excluding options. And you are reducing human decision making to an absurd degree and are also making overly simplistic claims about human behavior. Decisions are not binary as you suppose. Humans are rationalizing machines. We can be in denial and minimize things. If you've ever read a book about cults or religious indoctrination, so called "brainwashing" then you would know that such behavior is expected. In Scientology it is quite common for members to cut ties with family members who leave the Church. It's irrational but, again, that is our nature. And it's nothing Obama needed to vocally disagree with.

Yes they are. But if you have a church that is espousing many of the views that Wright and other pastors espoused and it offended you, you'd go to another church. Please show me where Obama made this choice or stand???

No. I reject that. And having studied cults and religious indoctrination along with human behavior and mind science I can tell you this is simply not how humans behave. Humans are not by and large rational. Given the amount of obvious BS humans believe and act on it's easily established. Besides, Obama didn't need to make a choice or a stand.

As I said before... any honest examination of many of the things Wright said are somewhat historically accurate/ valid descriptions as viewed by the working/lower class blacks who feel victimized (validly in some cases and not so validly in others) based on the US governments actions. Many of the things that Wright said on record are said in "black" churches across the country often.

Walking on water. Turing water into wine. Talking snakes. Talking donkeys. Genocide. Infanticide. The list goes on and on. Any leader who honestly examined Christianity and its horrors would not be a Christian by your logic. Mormonism is an obvious fraud with bigotry and racism. As an adult I stayed for 10 years. Romney is still there. Many good and decent people are still in Mormonism. I think Mormonism far worse as far as harming goes than Wright's church.

To summarize, excluded options, overly simplistic view of human nature and human behavior, over emphasis of Wright's Rhetoric. I'm sorry but you are simply failing to make a case IMO.

 

[DavidJames]

Please tell me where I said I agree with that criticism? I didn't then, and don't now.

Please quote where I said you agreed

As for your going to church for 35 years and having little ideological beliefs with the pastor and staying, then you made a CHOICE...

No **** Sherlock! My choice, in upper case no less. Is this supposed to be an enlightening, rapior like observation slicing up my argument? Yes, it was my choice. As it was Obama's. Guess what, you have no insight into why we made those choices. You can, however, decide on our behalf, as you seem to have. I find reading others minds not among my choices for drawing conclusions.

 

[gnome]

I'm not so sure AvalonXQ is as absolute as he thinks. You run into problems trying to apply a single litmus test. For example, if a candidate openly wanted to ban every religion but their own (for this hypothetical it's different from AvalonXQ's), and planned a Constitutional amendment that enjoyed widespread support, and their only viable opposition was Atheist, you still wouldn't vote for the atheist?

It's a silly example, but unless in every conceivable scenario you would still support any theist over any atheist, it is inaccurate to say that you would not vote for an atheist. More meaningful is if that would be a serious obstacle to getting your vote.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm not so sure AvalonXQ is as absolute as he thinks. You run into problems trying to apply a single litmus test. For example, if a candidate openly wanted to ban every religion but their own (for this hypothetical it's different from AvalonXQ's), and planned a Constitutional amendment that enjoyed widespread support, and their only viable opposition was Atheist, you still wouldn't vote for the atheist?

It doesn't matter whether the religion is different from mine or not -- I would likely vote for the atheist either way.

I'm not interested in living in a country without freedom of religion; I don't care if they elect me to head up the state religion myself. Terrible idea; no interest.

Bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot.

 

[RandFan]

It doesn't matter whether the religion is different from mine or not -- I would likely vote for the atheist either way.

I'm not interested in living in a country without freedom of religion; I don't care if they elect me to head up the state religion myself. Terrible idea; no interest.

Bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot.

I'm really confused. Who is arguing against freedom of religion?

 

[gnome]

As I read it, he is taking the more reasonable position that there are some circumstances where he might vote for an atheist. It's a little easier to discuss if it's not an absolute litmus test. I don't think it has to be bigotry to prefer someone who shares your values, and have that be one factor in your voting decision.

 

[crimresearch]

You might want to go back and look at the posts for clarification. I made 4 posts and then you replied snarkily about how then no one can answer the OP.

Sorry if I made the (perfectly logical) conclusion that you were referring to my statements. if not, then oops.

Next time if you are talking to someone, maybe you should include their names so it is easier to see who you are talking to..... unless general snarky comments are what you are trying to post.

The notion that because you made 4 posts, any general comment that comes after is an attack on you, has no rational basis in fact.
Neither does your claim that you answered the OP question by calling it a 'non-issue'

In any case, you've derailed this thread enough.
If you have something either correct or useful to the topic at hand, I'll be sure to look at it, and if I have a comment, you'll know, because I'll use the quote function

 

[WildCat]

Wright says that Obama is POTUS because he was "selected" by Wall Street and the Jews.