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Conservatives and climate change

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And yes, that includes being a Denier of "billions will die and those who remain will be cannibals". That's Turner's comment. He's a complete nutcase, and none of the resident Faithful will disavow him. That's why they deserve to be called "sciency and truthy", not men of science.

That's your argument? People who believe the scientific consensus regarding man-made climate are "truthy" because none of them are - in that moment - actively disavowing some random nutbar you pulled out of your backside? Really?

How's this then: I disavow Ted Turner.

So much for your asinine argument.

I suggest NOT doing that, it really, really drives them up the wall. Because they want to redefine "Denier" ad hoc, to apply that anyone that doesn't believe whatever moronic thing they are spouting at the moment.

Hey, speaking of moronic things people spout:
The US makes energy independence a national security matter, allowing squashing dissent and legal challenges to nuclear power plants by presidential executive order. Bonds are issued for funding of nuclear plants, to the order of a minimum of $100B per year for twenty years. New designs are put into production by US Government funding, including thorium reactors. A minimum of twenty reactors per year for ten years.

Let's shred the Constitution and force government-funded nuclear energy on everyone! Nothing moronic about that at all.
 
Like I said, you take the coward's position, using all the denialist arguments but never actually giving your own opinions. You know as well as I that there's more to AGW than "1 degree in the last 150 years", but you'd rather offer a straw man of what we're really arguing about here.

^This is just alarmist rhetoric. "Denialist arguments" it's meaningless.

I do agree AGW is more than the observed warming over the last 150 years.
I especially like how you have retreated your position with virtually every post you made as the evidence against your argument piles up until you go "oh, but I always agreed with the scientists", like your other posts never existed.

Nonsense. You've fabricated a bunch of strawmen and hurled rhetoric for the last page of posts. It's completely irrational. You've been called out and shown wanting. I'm still waiting for the SPECIFIC examples of "deniers" denying science, all you've proven is that anyone questioning the current status quo is to be labelled a "denier".

Contrarian to the bone, but certainly no skeptic.

More made up labels you can't substantiate with evidence.

ETA: You can skip the "" around the word consensus. It's as strong in climate science as it is in biology for the theory of evolution.

Nonsense. "consensus" in this instance consists of a single poll of American scientists conducted several years ago that agree it's warmed in the last 150 years. It's far from "scientific consensus" on AGW.
 
No, you just listed a name, you never substantiated your claim.

But you may have found 1 nut on the entire planet. Well done. It's meaningless. I can find a lot more people claiming the Earth is flat. I don't concern myself with flat earthers and I certainly don't worry myself about them and claim they're influencing policy or scientists studying geography. Wouldn't I look the fool claiming flat earthers were anything but a few misguided fringe nutters?

actually the name was posted by someone else

Matt Ridley, Richard Lindzen, Willy Soon, and Freeman Dyson hardly deny "evidenced science". This gross misrepresentation of the opposition says a lot.

i then posted a video him telling that he cannot even conclude that CO² has to do anything at all with arctic temperature....
 
He says he's been studying the effects of CO2 on hurricane intensity for 20 years and clearly there no effect in the real world, it's based on models.:confused:

So he has an alternate theory based on empirical evidence and that's "denial". How sad that you think that.

so where did he present that evidence and that alternative hypothesis?
 
i think i have already debunked that lie, there is also a link to it in a link in my signature, but i think i corrected you already on that.

here

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/06/04/1003187107.full.pdf+html

Ahh yes, 1300 American scientists agree on the tenets of the ACC and that's "scientific consensus" on AGW. lol.

Even uk2e2 knows AGW is more than just the tenets of the ACC, whatever they are.

Call me when you get scientific consensus on climate sensitivity. That's what inquiring minds want to know.
 
^This is just alarmist rhetoric. "Denialist arguments" it's meaningless.

If you feel uncomfortable being labelled a denier, stop making denialist arguments.

I do agree AGW is more than the observed warming over the last 150 years.

Good. Problem is, that's all you allowed. What, specifically, don't you agree with when it comes to the consensus view on AGW, and why?

Nonsense. You've fabricated a bunch of strawmen and hurled rhetoric for the last page of posts. It's completely irrational. You've been called out and shown wanting. I'm still waiting for the SPECIFIC examples of "deniers" denying science, all you've proven is that anyone questioning the current status quo is to be labelled a "denier".

I and others have given you SPECIFIC examples of deniers denying science, and all you've done is denied them.

More made up labels you can't substantiate with evidence.

Did you know that all words are made up?

Contrarian


Nonsense. "consensus" in this instance consists of a single poll of American scientists conducted several years ago that agree it's warmed in the last 150 years. It's far from "scientific consensus" on AGW.

I suppose you have evidence showing that there is no consensus regarding AGW?

No?

More denial on your part then.
 
Evidence? An alternative hypothesis? Those things would be a good start.
One alternative hypothesis is that several periodic phenomena of varying cycle length, from 24 hours to perhaps 200,000 years, as well as aperiodic phenomena such as volcanism, cometary impact, mountain building, and the opening and closing of channels between continents influence near-surface air temperature measurements of the Earth's atmosphere, that we are currently at some point in an interglacial, that the observed 20th century warming is a rebound from the Little Ice Age, and that the paleoreconstruction of CO2 levels lags, rather than leads, ocean temperature.
 
Call me when you get scientific consensus on climate sensitivity. That's what inquiring minds want to know.

The consensus isn't a consensus of opinion, its a consensus of evidence. And there is good evidence showing that the uncertainty around sensitivity is actually weighted to the high end, i.e. the chances that the problem will be much worse than anticipated is much higher than the chance it won't be as bad as anticipated:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/318/5850/629.abstract
 
One alternative hypothesis is that several periodic phenomena of varying cycle length, from 24 hours to perhaps 200,000 years, as well as aperiodic phenomena such as volcanism, cometary impact, mountain building, and the opening and closing of channels between continents influence near-surface air temperature measurements of the Earth's atmosphere, that we are currently at some point in an interglacial, that the observed 20th century warming is a rebound from the Little Ice Age, and that the paleoreconstruction of CO2 levels lags, rather than leads, ocean temperature.

That alternative hypothesis has been falsified.
 
While our deniers are stuck in the 19th century, the world of carbon-free energy advances;

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...ect_to_pour_water_into_volcano_to_make_power/

Actually, no, the world of carbon-free energy doesn't advance. That's certainly an interesting research tidbit. But it does not constitute an "advance".

What constitutes an advance would be something comprehensive, such as I laid out earlier. One thing that's interesting is that there is NO comparative "Green vision", there is only expensive boondoggles and tiny amounts of actual productive energy, often at great (read: ridiculous) cost. And without that comprehensive vision, the Green people are left simply being critical. Of coal, of gasoline, of peoples' habits, of private industry policy, they are always endlessly bitching about one aspect or another of "the way things are".

(I've corrected one or two confusing sentences that resident trolls keep hysterically babbling about, and I've created a Title for the plan).

The SQUASH SNAIL DARTERS ENERGY PLAN FOR THE USA


The US makes energy independence a national security matter, allowing squashing dissent and legal challenges to nuclear power plants by presidential executive order. Private corporate bonds are issued for funding of nuclear plants, to the order of a minimum of $100B per year for twenty years. New designs are researched and brought to the point of production-readiness by US Government funding, including thorium reactors.
  1. A minimum of twenty reactors per year for ten years are built by private industry using the private bond issues above cited. Part of the interest stream on these bonds is paid back to the DOE for the reactor research projects, in some reasonable fashion.
  2. Methanol, produced from methane, which we have an abundance of, is introduced into gas stations at a market price, which is easily less than gasoline and diesel per gallon of gasoline equivalent. No new facilities or government money is required for this. Some altered regulations would be helpful: The definition of "Flexfuel capable" could be certified as to compatibility with M85 methanol.
  3. Funding and subsidies for alternative motor fuels could cease, since the M85 product from existing refineries can provide us energy independence from foreign motor fuels. Funding for research and experimentation on such alternative fuels could be increased.
  4. Subsidies for oil drilling and production also cease.
  5. Oil shale, conventional drilling, fraccing, oil sands, and the Keystone pipeline are be fast tracked. New oil shale drilling and production in Colorado and Utah would be fast tracked as a national security matter. (This is avidly opposed by environmentalists).
  6. Government subsidies for wind and solar farms cease, excepting where a cost benefit analysis shows true feasibility. Here I am thinking of remote locations, small towns in good locations, islands and so forth. For these locations, equipment - wind and solar - could simply be moved from substandard locations where it now exists.
The result of the above policies would be a change to several hundred billion positive balance of payments, energy independence within a decade, two decades worst case, cheaper gas for cars in the US, and cheaper home heating and cooling for our houses.

The industry that fueled that last two decades of growth in the US was housing, the industry that will fuel the next two decades of growth is energy. The future that I aim have exist, and which I have and will worked toward, is a positive one.

You will note there's no big government scam blithely said to be "cap and trade" or "carbon taxes" in my vision. However, those who are concerned with net carbon emissions will note that the plan includes a huge increase in nuclear power achieved by neutering the anti-nuclear tactics of the radical greenies and using private funding. If you are concerned with carbon, you can easily calculate the net effect of this scale of nuclear power. If you cannot do that, I might do it for you if you asked politely and I wasn't feeling lazy at the moment.​
 
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Actually, no, the world of carbon-free energy doesn't advance. That's certainly an interesting research tidbit. But it does not constitute an "advance".

What constitutes an advance would be something comprehensive, such as I laid out earlier (I've corrected one or two confusing sentences that resident trolls keep hysterically babbling about):


But since you want to talk policy I'll offer my fix for the problems of the US.
The US makes energy independence a national security matter, allowing squashing dissent and legal challenges to nuclear power plants by presidential executive order. Private corporate bonds are issued for funding of nuclear plants, to the order of a minimum of $100B per year for twenty years. New designs are researched and brought to the point of production-readiness by US Government funding, including thorium reactors. A minimum of twenty reactors per year for ten years are built by private industry using the private bond issues above cited. Part of the interest stream on these bonds is paid back to the DOE for the reactor research projects, in some reasonable fashion.

Methanol, produced from methane, which we have an abundance of, is introduced into gas stations at a market price, which is easily less than gasoline and diesel per gallon of gasoline equivalent. No new facilities or government money is required for this.

Oil shale, conventional drilling, fraccing, oil sands, and the Keystone pipeline would be fast tracked. New oil shale in Colorado and Utah would be fast tracked as a national security matter.

Government subsidies for wind and solar farms cease, excepting where a cost benefit analysis shows true feasibility. Here I am thinking of remote locations, small towns in good locations, islands and so forth. For these locations, equipment - wind and solar - could simply be moved from substandard locations where it now exists.

The result of the above policies would be a change to several hundred billion positive balance of payments, energy independence within a decade, two decades worst case, cheaper gas for cars in the US, and cheaper home heating and cooling for our houses.

The industry that fueled that last two decades of growth in the US was housing, the industry that will fuel the next two decades of growth is energy. The future that I aim have exist, and which I have and will worked toward, is a positive one.

You will note there's no big government scam blithely said to be "cap and trade" or "carbon taxes" in my vision. However, those who are concerned with net carbon emissions will note that the plan includes a huge increase in nuclear power achieved by neutering the anti-nuclear tactics of the radical greenies and using private funding. If you are concerned with carbon, you can easily calculate the net effect of this scale of nuclear power. If you cannot do that, I might do it for you if you asked politely and I wasn't feeling lazy at the moment.


If you keep using science and technology to solve problems, our politicians will be left with nothing to do with our tax dollars except waste it on more Solyndra-type crony-capitalist boondoggles ... :cool:
 
What an amazing "plan" that is, basically burn more carbon even faster faster faster, never mind the facts and the measurements.

Not only that, stop cold anything that doesn't burn carbon, except for nuke plants. Ignore the watts/meter^2 from the sun, ignore wind power, ignore hydro power, just burn, baby, burn, as fast and as hard as we can.

That's the so-called "plan" that was just presented.
 
What are you going to do with the nuclear waste, mhaze?
Thorium reactors have serious advantages in this area, but I'd leave it to that industry and their experts to decide on the best types of reactors, as well as what to do with spent fuel. As they do now...and right now, there isn't a problem with nuclear waste.

What an amazing "plan" that is, basically burn more carbon even faster faster faster, never mind the facts and the measurements.

Not only that, stop cold anything that doesn't burn carbon, except for nuke plants. Ignore the watts/meter^2 from the sun, ignore wind power, ignore hydro power, just burn, baby, burn, as fast and as hard as we can.

That's the so-called "plan" that was just presented.

Wrong. Take a look at the number of nuclear plants.

If you keep using science and technology to solve problems, our politicians will be left with nothing to do with our tax dollars except waste it on more Solyndra-type crony-capitalist boondoggles ... :cool:
That's exactly the point. Don't expect politicians to solve your problems or even the problems of your country. Go right ahead and solve them, in fashions that are profitable.

That's exactly what's being done with fracking, oil shale and oil sands, and with the Keystone pipeline project.
Methanol can come into use in a similar fashion, without government help. Nuclear by it's nature requires a government committed to nuclear.
 
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2. Tell you what, find the least integer t such that 205t gives a remainder of 12 when divided by 43 and a remainder of 27 when divided by 53 and get back to me.
People who don't know anything about mathematics might think that's a hard problem.

To mathematicians, however, that's a trivial calculation. Just try all values of t with 0 < t < 43*53. You don't have to try any values outside that range because group theory tells you the sequence of residue pairs outside that range is guaranteed to repeat a sequence that appears within that range. As it turns out, the pattern starts to repeat at t=546.

When you do the calculation, you find there's no such t. You can prove that using pencil and paper by calculating the first 13 powers of 205=-7 mod 53. You'll find that the powers start to repeat, and there is no t such that 205t=27 mod 53.

(You might get the same result even quicker by applying some more advanced number theory, but the important point here is that Malcolm Kirkpatrick apparently believed this trivial calculation is a hard problem.)

Ah, yes, that old trick. Try to complicate the issue to a degree that the plebes will be fooled into thinking its just soo complicated that only self-professed geniuses like you can see through the lies and expose those dastardly and duplicitous scientists. it's the internet version of the Wizard of Oz bedazzling the poor peasants by talking in Latin.
Exactly right. Malcolm Kirkpatrick has not made any connection between number theory and conservatives or climate change.

Physics? Check. Chemistry? Check. Models? Who knows how well partial differential equations and boundary conditions are implemented, why H2O & clouds aren't modelled, and what grid sizes are appropriate versus what is implemented, and what 'magic parameters' are toyed with.
Mathematicians, scientists, and engineers routinely solve systems of partial differential equations with boundary conditions.

Do nation-states abandon their air forces because nuclear weapons, aircraft, missiles are designed by solving PDEs? Does AlBell's personal distrust of PDEs lead him to deny the Apollo landings?

Why are AlBell, mhaze, and Malcolm Kirkpatrick stating their personal distrust of bog-standard undergraduate mathematics with respect to AGW instead of questioning the reliability of bridges, skyscrapers, aircraft, and all other applications of that same undergraduate math?

The most plausible answer to that question is that their argument is dishonest.

I'm not accusing AlBell, mhaze, or Malcolm Kirkpatrick of dishonesty. They may just be repeating an argument they've heard somewhere, without being qualified to evaluate that argument on its merits. I'm just pointing out that the argument they're repeating looks dishonest, and seems downright silly to those of us who are qualified to perform the calculations they're saying we shouldn't trust.
 
(I've corrected completely changed one or two confusing hypocritical sentences that resident trolls people who understand what words mean keep hysterically babbling about pointing out make me look foolish, and I've created a Title for the plan).

ftfy
The SQUASH SNAIL DARTERS ENERGY PLAN FOR THE USA

How do you squash a fish?


Well, you've backed down from your original assertion that Big Government should fund it all, but it's nice to see your support for totalitarian oppression remains.
 
That's exactly the point. Don't expect politicians to solve your problems or even the problems of your country. Go right ahead and solve them, in fashions that are profitable.

Unless, of course, you need those politicians to enact policies to "squash dissent" against your awesome solutions and fund the infrastructure required to carry them out.
 
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