Consciousness

[Mike Helland]

You are, of course, aware of the existence of synonyms, right? Did you really believe that I was claiming that a sci-fi show somehow made a scientific demonstration about the nature of consciousness? I get that you are frustrated by my comments with regards with your own evasiveness but trying to project that onto me will not work.

Are you ever going to get anywhere with your question about the iphone "eye"?

It wasn't a rhetorical device.

Does a smart phone have a conscious experience?

I suppose it does.

You said so does a cuttlefish.

Why do you create conflict when we're in agreement?

 

[Belz...]

It wasn't a rhetorical device.

I wasn't implying that it was, but wouldn't mind if it were.

Does a smart phone have a conscious experience?

I don't know. I suppose not, using the definition of consciousness we commonly use, but I guess it's not impossible. In fact, maybe any reaction to any stimuli is consciousness, making even rocks, in a very, very crude fashion, conscious. But I suspect there's a minimum threshold instead, and perhaps also a matter of the sort of work the "organ" is doing.

Why do you create conflict when we're in agreement?

Where did I create conflict? I answered your question about the iphone, added a thought about a mollusc, and responded to your point about a fictional show with a specific episode that covered/addressed the issue you mentioned.

If there's any conflict here, you have imagined it.

 

[Mike Helland]

In fact, maybe any reaction to any stimuli is consciousness

That's intelligence. Not consciousness.

making even rocks, in a very, very crude fashion, conscious.

That's matter, not intelligence.

The rock does (*edit* not) contain a model of the world. It just "is".

If there's any conflict here, you have imagined it.

You don't instigate anything. You're innocent.

 

[Belz...]

That's intelligence. Not consciousness.

Reaction to stimuli is intelligence? That would mean that a thermostat is intelligent. No, intelligence is, broadly, defined as problem-solving. Consciousness is a sort of awareness, which is what I was talking about when I mentioned stimuli.

That's matter, not intelligence.

The brain is also matter, and yet it is intelligent AND conscious.

The rock does contain a model of the world. It just "is".

How would you know? Again you are drawing arbitrary distinctions between one thing and the other without justification. Presumably it "feels" to you like such awareness by rocks is impossible while it's possible with brains, but you can't explain why.

Are dogs conscious?

 

[Mike Helland]

Are dogs conscious?

Of course.

 

[Belz...]

Of course.

Ok, how about a turtle? A fish? Lobster? Ant?

Do you know where you would draw the line, and why?

 

[Mike Helland]

Ok, how about a turtle? A fish? Lobster? Ant?

Do you know where you would draw the line, and why?

Yes.

I've told you several times.

The line between a rock and a turtle is that the turtle has a model of being, made of being.

Where the rock is just being.

 

[Myriad]

It wasn't a rhetorical device.

Does a smart phone have a conscious experience?

If I asked you to tell me about a conscious experience you've had, and you decided to try to answer, you'd tell me a narrative.

If I suggested you remember a conscious experience you've had, and you decided to try to do it, you'd remember a narrative.

Conscious experiences are narratives.

Your smart phone can record video, but it can't process it as a narrative of things happening in a world. You can't set it up in a room and leave it recording for half an hour and then ask it, "now tell me what's been going on," or "just show me the important parts of the video to get me up to speed." There's no program that can do that. Not yet. (And not anytime soon.)

Last weekend a person I know very well got more drunk than I'd ever seen her before. (How? See below.) I had the experience of interacting with her during that time. She was responsive, able to notice some things going on around her, answer simple questions, and obey simple requests. Kind of like a smart phone. But she couldn't keep track of what was going on, or understand where she was or plan what to do next. In a very real way she "kept losing the plot." Per another accurate cliché she "wasn't all there." I thought it likely that by my operative definition (but not any medical definition), she wasn't actually conscious. Sure enough, after sleeping it off: no memory of any of it. Thus, no narrative, no experience.

(Because of that, no one even knows how it happened. Most likely, she drank one of several undiluted flavored hard liquor concoctions that were available at the self-serve drinks table, and not realizing how strong it was, poured herself a much too large serving.)

 

[Belz...]

The line between a rock and a turtle is that the turtle has a model of being, made of being.

Where the rock is just being.

You're not thinking this through, Mike. Take it slow: I mentioned other animals. How about an ant?

 

[Belz...]

Last weekend a person I know very well got more drunk than I'd ever seen her before. (How? See below.) I had the experience of interacting with her during that time. She was responsive, able to notice some things going on around her, answer simple questions, and obey simple requests. Kind of like a smart phone. But she couldn't keep track of what was going on, or understand where she was or plan what to do next. In a very real way she "kept losing the plot." Per another accurate cliché she "wasn't all there." I thought it likely that by my operative definition (but not any medical definition), she wasn't actually conscious. Sure enough, after sleeping it off: no memory of any of it. Thus, no narrative, no experience.

I've never been drunk, but it often happens that I lose the plot when I'm in a situation where I'm not doing anything or thinking about anything, and I just zone out. In those moments I'm not every sure I'm distinguishing between me and not-me. It's a very fuzzy experience.

 

[Mike Helland]

If I asked you to tell me about a conscious experience you've had, and you decided to try to answer, you'd tell me a narrative.

Thanks for putting in words in mouth.

I think a real human being would say that all experiences they had were conscious unless they were dreaming.

 

[Belz...]

Thanks for putting in words in mouth.

He's doing no such thing. He's describing the kind of answer one can come up with.

You seem to deliberately see conflict in posts addressed to you. I suggest that this is a source of problem in the discussion, and I think you should read posts more neutrally.

I think a real human being would say that all experiences they had were conscious unless they were dreaming.

You misunderstand Myriad's point. That answer WOULD be a narrative.

With all respect, is English your first language?

 

[p0lka]

Yes.

I've told you several times.

The line between a rock and a turtle is that the turtle has a model of being, made of being.

Where the rock is just being.

That seems to discount any form of internal experience from a rock? or things like silicon?

Is your view that computing devices can never have that internal experience that people call consciousness?

Edit: I seem to have posted before reading the entire thread, sorry. ignore it.

 

[Mike Helland]

You misunderstand Myriad's point. That answer WOULD be a narrative.

Again. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

If someone asked me that question and sincerely cared about my answer, I would say "this".

With all respect, is English your first language?

Unfortunately.

As in, unfortunately, this is a conscious experience.

 

[Mike Helland]

That seems to discount any form of internal experience from a rock? or things like silicon?

Correct.

I am not advocating panpsychism.

Is your view that computing devices can never have that internal experience that people call consciousness?

Any mechanism that exists and produces a model of their existence is to some degree conscious.

Computers, by this line of reasoning, must be conscious now, and in the future will perhaps have richer subjective experiences than we do, simply by virtue of existing, of being.

 

[Belz...]

Again. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

No, you don't understand. No one is putting words in your mouth. Putting words in your mouth is making it appear as if you are saying a specific thing. Not only is it the general "you" that was being used there, but the claim was about a category, not a specific wording. He only said that an answer to such a question would be a type of narrative.

You're not making this discussion easy by constantly making a battle out of it.

Also, you're not making it easy by dodging questions. Is an ant conscious?

 

[Mike Helland]

Is an ant conscious?

Good question.

I think so.

The colony certainly would be.

 

[p0lka]

Good question.

I think so.

The colony certainly would be.

It would be so much easier if people called it 'internal experience', rather than being conscious n stuff.

Ant might have an internal experience, if it's running on its hardware.

Why would the colony certainly be?
Where's the hardware?
Is it like frank herbert or something?

 

[Belz...]

Good question.

I think so.

And why?

The colony certainly would be.

A colony? How would that work?

 

[Pixel42]

I thought it likely that by my operative definition (but not any medical definition), she wasn't actually conscious. Sure enough, after sleeping it off: no memory of any of it. Thus, no narrative, no experience.

I've never been drunk but I have had two TGAs. The first time I lost 18 hours, the second time about 3 hours. After talking to people who interacted with me I have no doubt that I was conscious during these times - most hadn't even realised something was wrong - but I certainly can't give you a narrative of them. I've puzzled over them a lot, they were very disconcerting experiences, but they were certainly experiences, even if I have no memory of them whatsoever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transient_global_amnesia