Consciousness.....a basic rule of physics

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I am not sure I follwo your logic, so before I can offer and agreement or critique i would like to ask what you mean by this, why should self ereference make this difference?

I would think that there is an element of selfreference but i don't see it as part of the manipulation of the enviroment, how does your train of thought go?

I see humans as developing many stances, tools and survival skills prior to the advent of abstracted thoughts and references, so I am curious as to how your thoughts go in this direction?
By self-reference I am talking about the ability reinforce the interaction between the external and internal environments of some complex phenomenon, that has the ability to replicate itself in non-trivial ways.

Please look at my preliminary model http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/MonadCK.pdf , which demonstrates the relationss between Cybernetic Efficiency, distinction, and consciousness.
 
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Likewise without those unconscious consequences I referred to “it won't keep working” either.
Whether it works or not is irrelevant.

If the need for the continued functioning of “your head” for what we call consciousness is not a bizarre concept to you...
"Bizarre concept"?

When you are unconscious it will.
How will I know?

It was given to you before...
You might think so but it wasn't.

Indeed the word “Meaning” is a construct of consciousness...
Not just the word. Please to show meaning absent consciousness. You claim to have done that but I can't prove a negative. You've only explained that events take place whether or not there is consciousness. a.) You can't prove that. b.) You can't prove a material world. c.) You can't show meaning without consciousness.

....the inclusion of modifiers like “contemplate” and “perceive”.
They are not modifiers. Words are used to convey meaning. I chose these words to convey meaning. That meaning can only be conveyed, understood, contemplated or perceived via consciousness.

Please to show meaning conveyed, contemplated or perceived without consciousness? What does it mean to say there is meaning without consciousness? It doesn't mean anything.

You are in essense saying that colors exist without light.
 
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It is going a bit too far just to suggest that conscious has to do whit anything. First of all you can not even define what is “conscious” in a restrict way. Suggesting it to be the main criteria to everything is just completely and utterly nonsense.
The universe was the universe long before you were here, and it will still be long after you are gone. It is totally indifferent either or not you realise anything in a conscious manner, or if you perceive events in a retroactive fashion appearing to be conscious but without you even realising them.
Unless it is not a 0,1 game, as suggested in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4125175&postcount=84 .
 
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TMiguel, I love you man, but easy there, dude.
My opinion may seam a bit extreme, but I’m not compliant whit people that have no notion of moral/ethics, and people that try to forces their nonsense on to other people by whatever means. Take the document ORGANIC MATHEMATICS for which he is co-author, special the following sections:
A favorite from amongst the questions asked of pre-school children is: "Are
there more Eyes, or more People?" The children's answers and explanations are
often surprising. For instance, one child explained that there are more people
because “people are bigger than eyes”. Another one explained that “there are more
people than eyes because people are more important”. It is important to really
listen to these answers even if some of them appear to be incorrect.
The fact that the children haven't yet been exposed to the formal education
systems - hence their thought process is free and unblemished – gave us the
feeling that the work with them could be utilized in our research
.
We came to the conclusion that kindergarten children have a different way of
grasping concepts and a different way of thinking than do adults. While the socalled
"adult Mathematical thinking" is based mostly on Logic, children think in a
way that is balanced somewhere in-between logic, intuition, emotion and
imagination.

If you have any doubts about the term using kids could mean something else, the doubts fade away latter on the same papper.

Education: Mathematical Dialogs with pre-school children – Interaction between
child and adult. We believe that kindergarten is the natural environment for a
growing mind to be trained to think parallel AND serial simultaneously, where
Parallel thinking is more intuitive and Serial thinking is more analytical. In order
to be developed both ways are needed and Organic Mathematics is focused on the
educational methods that have to be developed in order to reinforce the bridging
between Intuition (parallel thinking) and Analysis (serial thinking).

I personally believe that my opinion was to kind.
 
Again you use dichotomy between Descartes and Tao.


Inability to distinguish and contrast multiple elements is guaranteed to lead to a failure of logic and/or the scientifc method.

In addition, your insistence on disagreeing with my statements rather than trying to determine the continuity between those and yours indicates an inflexible [0,1] mindset (dualism/not-dualism).

Im talking about Descartes\Tao interaction as complements of a one framework.


Please describe a Descartes/Tao interaction.
 
Inability to distinguish and contrast multiple elements is guaranteed to lead to a failure of logic and/or the scientifc method.

In addition, your insistence on disagreeing with my statements rather than trying to determine the continuity between those and yours indicates an inflexible [0,1] mindset (dualism/not-dualism).




Please describe a Descartes/Tao interaction.

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/UR.pdf
 
My opinion may seam a bit extreme, but I’m not compliant whit people that have no notion of moral/ethics, and people that try to forces their nonsense on to other people by whatever means. Take the document ORGANIC MATHEMATICS for which he is co-author, special the following sections:


If you have any doubts about the term using kids could mean something else, the doubts fade away latter on the same papper.



I personally believe that my opinion was to kind.

TMiguel,

You are off topic.

Again, by using the pedagogy of the unknown, the kid and the adult are both pupils and teachers of each other.

In other way, you have no idea about the thing that you are criticizing, in this case.
 
Whether it works or not is irrelevant.

"Bizarre concept"?

How will I know?

You might think so but it wasn't.

Not just the word. Please to show meaning absent consciousness. You claim to have done that but I can't prove a negative. You've only explained that events take place whether or not there is consciousness. a.) You can't prove that. b.) You can't prove a material world. c.) You can't show meaning without consciousness.

Well that is what words do they represent things, some conscious and some not, one of the “meanings” that word is used to convey is “cause meaning effect”. If as you have asserted “Rocks exist and roll down hills a priori” and “The cause and effect are a priori” or with out conscious observation then the meaning of “rocks” “exist” “roll down hills” “cause”, “effect” and thus even “meaning” are the same given a lack of consciousness as given consciousness. Without consciousness only the ability to convey meanings goes away but meaning themselves, what the words were constructed to represent, remain.

You do not have to prove a negative just prove your assertion that “meaning” requires consciousness. So far you have mostly argued that the conception, contemplation, assessment, qualification and perception of “meaning” require consciousness, which I have not argued with. Then you’ve made an assertion that claims meaning (cause and effect) without consciousness.

a.) I do not have to, since it is what is consistent with the evidence. If you have a better way to explain the evidence please provide it.
b.) I do not have to, since it is what is consistent with the evidence. If you have a better way to explain the evidence please provide it.
c.) I do not have to, since it is what is consistent with the evidence and your more recent assertions. If you have a better way to explain the evidence and your more recent assertions please provide it.


They are not modifiers. Words are used to convey meaning. I chose these words to convey meaning. That meaning can only be conveyed, understood, contemplated or perceived via consciousness.

Indeed, but words are not the meanings that they convey but only represent them. Remember

This is not an answer to anything. It is entirely irrelevant to the point at hand. You are engaging in fallacy. Flight isn't feathers and/or wings. A chair isn't wood and nails. That something is composed of constituent parts doesn't make the constituent parts the self same thing.

If constituent parts are not “the self same thing” then representations are not either. Without consciousness the word “chair” would not be able to convey meaning but the meaning that word represented, the chair itself, remains and has meaning or consequences (cause and effect). By later including words specifying only the conscious aspects of meaning you of course limit your relevance of meaning to what we call consciousness. Those words were not included in your original assertion that brought us to “meaning”.

No. You are playing the game. I'm talking about consequences that have meaning. You think there is significance to space time outside of the realm of consciousness. Significance is a human construct. That something happens doesn't mean that it is significant absent consciousness.

Their introduction was a modification of the applicability of “meaning” to specifically limit it to only your preferred conscious applications. If all you care to refer to now are the conveyance, conception, contemplation, qualification, assessment and/or perception of “meaning” requiring what we call consciousness, then I do not see an issue.


Please to show meaning conveyed, contemplated or perceived without consciousness?

I never made those claims, repeating them will not change that.

What does it mean to say there is meaning without consciousness?

I have said it before, if you need it repeated I’ll let you do it this time.


Rocks exist and roll down hills a priori. The cause and effect are a priori…

It doesn't mean anything.

It means just what you said. Also it means what I have said before that such “a priori” “cause and effect” enables what you choose to perceive as consciousness.


You are in essense saying that colors exist without light.

My car is blue that color is due to absorption, reflection and scattering properties of its surface, those properties do not change just because of the absence of light.
 
TMiguel,

You are off topic.

Again, by using the pedagogy of the unknown, the kid and the adult are both pupils and teachers of each other.

In other way, you have no idea about the thing that you are criticizing, in this case.

Because you do not realise the seriouse of your proposal, that is why I belive your place is in a mental hospital.
 
It would be rather ironic if I reported you, because I agree that you know something about math, and I understand your frustration.

But attack the argument, not the poster--membership agreement.

It's particularly tempting to call a crank insane, but--how would you express it--they are just partially overlapping sets--the cranks and the insane, that is.

No, I get mad myself when someone pretends to use technical vocabulary about music that they don't understand.

But don't get yourself banned. We'd be down one good mind, and still be trying to figure out what the **** he's talking about.

eta: i shouldn't play mod. but I'm bothered by some JREF poster's naivete' about mental-health issues, and I don't like the accusation of real insanity as a rhetorical device--because mental illness and the suffering it causes is real.

carry on.
 
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My car is blue that color is due to absorption, reflection and scattering properties of its surface, those properties do not change just because of the absence of light.
:rolleyes:

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. Properties, in and of themself, do not color make. No light, no color.

You do not have to prove a negative just prove your assertion that “meaning” requires consciousness.
There's nothing to prove. It's axiomatic. You can't have one without the other.

Demonstrate meaning sans consciousness. It can't be done. If you are unconscious you can't even make an argument.
 
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It's particularly tempting to call a crank insane, but--how would you express it--they are just partially overlapping sets--the cranks and the insane, that is.

[...]

But don't get yourself banned. We'd be down one good mind, and still be trying to figure out what the **** he's talking about.

I second that. Don't get yourself banned, TMiguel! Don't attack the arguer. Don't even attack the argument - see Skeptic's advice in the Deeper than primes thread.

TMiguel,

You are off topic.
Of course, your peddling of your PDF's is totally off-topic too. They're about mathematics, not about consciousness.

And it's obvious that Doron's "mathematical" theories are total crackpottery. He's been peddling them on various internet fora since begin 2003 and has never been able to explain them satisfactorily - not in 1600+ posts here, nor in 2600+ posts on IIDB, or in 458 posts on skepticalcommunity.com, or in 1800+ posts on physicsforums.com, or else. Various posters on those fora have tried to reason with him, to no avail. Laugh at him, ignore his arguments and he'll go away. Don't try to argue with him, it leads to nothing.

Read the post of Skeptic I linked to above, and the post after it.

And of course, it has nothing to do with consciousness either.
 
:rolleyes:

Your argument is fundamentally flawed. Properties, in and of themself, do not color make. No light, no color.

That was not the argument. The properties remain only your perception of them (what you perceive as color) is dependent on light.

There's nothing to prove. It's axiomatic. You can't have one without the other.

So pick the axiom you prefer and there is nothing to prove (including your axiom)?


Demonstrate meaning sans consciousness. It can't be done. If you are unconscious you can't even make an argument.

It is one of the meaning of “meaning” (your cause and effect a priori) but then why should you let one of the actual meanings of “meaning” stand in the way of your preferred axiom.
 
That was not the argument. The properties remain only your perception of them (what you perceive as color) is dependent on light.
You are moving the goal posts. Let's stick with my point.

RandFan
You are in essense saying that colors exist without light.
That stands. Color does not exist without light.

So pick the axiom you prefer and there is nothing to prove (including your axiom)?
Meaning is a construct of consciousness. It doesn't exist outside of consciousness.

It is one of the meaning of “meaning” (your cause and effect a priori) but then why should you let one of the actual meanings of “meaning” stand in the way of your preferred axiom.
What are you talking about? There is no meaning without consciousness.
 
That stands. Color does not exist without light.

Isn't that arbitrary? You could also argue that colours only exist in human minds, so colours can't exist without humans. Alternatively, you could argue that the way objects reflect light of particular frequencies defines their colour, so that colours are emergent properties of objects, and don't require humans.
 
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