Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[This is The End]

It definitely was about slavery and all the attendant issues, but it wasn't about slavery in the South, which was not actually threatened (despite the stump rhetoric) but rather slavery in the new states in the West.

Well, you have to start somewhere..... and so did the North .

 

[sarge]

Well, in that case, you're certainly right and I certainly didn't.

It amazes me you can still think that all Duke-ish Southerners are "white supremacists", but hey, that's apparently what you think.

Funny how folks can think things which seem completely implausible to you.

Funny how folks can attribute to an opponent an argument he didn't make when folks figure out they are wrong.

I didn't say all Duke-ish southerners. I said all Duke-ish southerners that, in the 70s, drove a car called the General Lee that was adorned with a Rebel Flag and played Dixie. And yes, all of those good ol boys were absolutely aware of the racial symbolism of the flag. It is an inescapable conclusion.

There are 3 possibilities here.

1. Sarge knows what everyone thinks and believes.

2. The human mind is incapable of thinking or believing these things which sarge deems impossible to think or believe.

3. Sarge is wrong.

My own experience and what I've read about the human brain lead me to believe that options 1 and 2 cannot be correct.

false dilema

 

[Piggy]

Are you saying it's a clear symbol of Southern identity, in general? In other words, would a black southerner consider it just as much a symbol of his cultural heritage as a white southerner? Because it's funny, one doesn't see southern black people flying it so much, even if they're proud of their regional identity.

It gets kinda muddy, in my experience, when you try to get at this.

Objectively, no, there's no way it's a symbol of universal Southern identity. I mean, it's not on anything in my house either.

But if you were to ask a lot of white folks who see it as a badge of contemporary Southern identity, they'd probably say something like "Well, they've got their own thing" (as though blacks could choose to just chill out and accept the SAC) or "It's my family's heritage", meaning that it's their tradition and if other people have different traditions, well, that's their business just leave us to our business.

 

[Piggy]

So you're basing your opinion on psychically knowing what people "truly" believe, not only now, but 200 years ago?

No, I'm saying exactly what I mean.

Consider the fact that not all political rhetoric is what's actually believed by those touting it, and often the most heated of it is the least sincere.

And rhetorical analysis of historical documents isn't arbitrary. There are limits to what you can deduce, but you can often deduce a heckuva lot.

In any case, it would be grossly naive to simply take the political rhetoric of any period at face value. And at times of war especially.

 

[Piggy]

Funny how folks can attribute to an opponent an argument he didn't make when folks figure out they are wrong.

I didn't say all Duke-ish southerners. I said all Duke-ish southerners that, in the 70s, drove a car called the General Lee that was adorned with a Rebel Flag and played Dixie.

Oh, I see... you literally meant only those who actually called their car "General Lee" and had the Dixie horn and a Rebel Flag on the hood during the 1970s. Only those people are definitely "white supremacists".

Well, pardon my mistake, then.

 

[Piggy]

false dilema

Why?

 

[Pup]

Let me ask you this....

Go listen to GOP talking points for a week. Not the campaign stuff, but the current elected leadership in power. Listen to what these guys say. Then come back and tell me how much of it you think they believe when they go home, and how much of it is rhetoric that's necessary to get votes.

When you've done that, then come back and let's analyze the rhetoric of the mid-1800s.

Well, when reading period northern political rhetoric, one can see two trends, an unpopular one and a popular one: the abolitionist rhetoric talking about ending slavery right here, right now, liberty for all, irrepressible conflict, etc., and the more middle-of-the-road rhetoric, talking about compromise, respecting property with the fugitive slave act, just stopping the expansion of slavery but not ending it.

One of those two would definitely get more votes than the other. In fact, Seward probably lost the Republican nomination because he talked too much about abolition, while Lincoln won it because he was more middle-of-the-road, and had backed off from things like his "house divided" speech.

So if you're implying that people said things they didn't really believe, just to get votes, I'd say yes, absolutely. Northern politicians realized that speaking openly about nationwide emancipation would make them lose races, regardless how they really felt. (I don't think most wanted it, but it was political suicide to say you did, if you did.) Most didn't have any idea that the momentum behind abolition would pick up so strong, so fast, so they saw no need to jump on that bandwagon for political reasons.

But in the north, it was pretty much just political rhetoric, all with an eye toward the ballot box. The outspoken abolitionists being threatened and beaten up and having their property vandalized in northern cities--the brave people who were actually taking action to match their beliefs--were the tiny minority.

As far as what the south believed... well, it wasn't just rhetoric down there. They actually took action too. Secession declarations weren't written to get votes from anybody--it was too late for that. They were preparing for war and preparing to put their careers and lives on the line. So when they said they needed to secede, because the new northern power base wouldn't stop until all the slaves were emancipated, not only did history prove them right later, but they were fitting their actions to their words at the time.

 

[Drachasor]

There are important differences here.

The swastika was the central symbol of Nazism, and never evolved into a symbol of contemporary Germany.

And would it be ok for it to be used today if the Germans using it pretended that Nazis were not against the Jews and that was a very minor part of WW2? If they said the Nazi Flag was just a symbol of german power, solidarity, and work ethic? The only "evolution" the Confederate Flag has undergone is a whitewashing of history. That's extremely abhorrent and I don't see why it should be condoned anymore than the original meaning of the flag.

And the St. Andrew's cross was not an official emblem of the CSA. It is much more widely used today than it was during the Civil War, most commonly as a symbol of the contemporary South.

St. Andrew's cross is part of the flag, but the flag and the cross are not the same thing.

Of course, in the intervening time, the SAC has been overtly used by some very violent and dangerous bigots, as has the swastika.

Let's call it what it is. The Confederate Flag. I don't see why you want to refer to the flag as just part of what it is. It would be like calling the American flag "the bars" or something.

So yes, the SAC can indeed symbolize the actual 1860s Confederacy, which fought to expand slavery into the West and whipped up public fervor with threats of the abolition of slavery.

And it can symbolize the Klan and other hate groups.

True.

But in the minds of a lot of people, especially young people, that's all history book stuff and it's really about being Southern today. Naive, yeah, but that's the way it is.

Here it is symbolizing denialism and a whitewashing of historic fact regarding slavery. Nothing good here either.

And in the minds of other folks it's about refusing to believe that their ancestors were bad people, and anger at others who try to insist that they agree that they were.

It's just not simple.

Except it is a symbol of those ancestors supporting and fighting for slavery. Even Lee is culpable here, despite the fact he free his slaves before joining. While in some ways he was a good guy, he made a monstrous decision to fight in support of a State that seceded just so it could be sure they'd still have slavery.

So yeah, it is about refusing to believe their ancestors were bad people. Part of this is denying what the war was about. At best they were good people who made a horribly monstrous decision and fought for the wrong side. Some found some measure of redemption later -- Longstreet is probably a prime example of this, and for this he was largely hated in the South. That said, acting like the Civil War had two respectable sides is grossly wrong, but this is exactly what whitewashers do.

I see no reason to look on with acceptance on those that fly the Confederate flag. Edit: I respect the free speech involved in flying it. I am merely saying it's really offensive and should be considered as such.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

the Confederate BATTLE flag, to be precise

 

[Undesired Walrus]

this person can fly any flag they like. I'm free to have whatever opinion I like about it.

What if the flag showed hardcore pornography?

 

[Baylor]

What if the flag showed hardcore pornography?

What state is he from? I'd like to move there.

 

[Tricky]

And I hate to have to say this even more, but college football teams and defunct boogie bands are much more defining to Southern identity at the moment than anything having to do with the Civil War.

And stock car racin'.

Piggy is right. Much of the south has abandoned the Stars and Bars as their "symbol", and those that retain it do so with full knowledge that it is a considered a racist symbol. There are very many southerners who are very ashamed of the racist history of the south and who reject racism entirely.

But they still yell "Roll Tide" every Saturday in the fall. I have many relatives, especially in-laws, who are still quite racist, but football unites us.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The US Civil War was most definitely about slavery.

Stop trying to end his self delusion about his history.

 

[Dancing David]

It gets kinda muddy, in my experience, when you try to get at this.

Objectively, no, there's no way it's a symbol of universal Southern identity. I mean, it's not on anything in my house either.

But if you were to ask a lot of white folks who see it as a badge of contemporary Southern identity, they'd probably say something like "Well, they've got their own thing" (as though blacks could choose to just chill out and accept the SAC) or "It's my family's heritage", meaning that it's their tradition and if other people have different traditions, well, that's their business just leave us to our business.

I agree, , people are complex and issues are never simple. There is a strange thing that happens up north here, remember where the NAACP started?

A good friend of mine served in WWII, and he was a mix of features. He called black people ******* most of the time, except around me. He swore up and own that he would be ashamed if he ever had sex with a black woman. But he said his best drinking buddies were black men in his youth because he knew they would never have sex with his sisters and visa versa. And he treated all people equally, he was good friends with our black neighbors and friends with a nurse from mexico.

Culturally he believed that white and blacks should not have sex with each other, but that was it. They could live together and work together, just not get married, But he loved kids, and that was 'mixed' kids as well.

I have known huge numbers of people like this, they are 'cultural' racists, they have racist beliefs. Yet they interacts with people of other races, work with them, have friends, etc... They do not discriminate, which is really strange.

Then there are those who belong to the aryan nation, and the kkk. And they are angry, they do discriminate and are often violent.

 

[kedo1981]

Again, it's "A" Confederate BATTLE flag" not "THE" "Confederate BATTLE flag" there were several.

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yes, it is A Confederate BATTLE flag ( there were over 180 ) , but it happens to be " THE " Confederate BATTLE flag, under discussion in this thread ...

 

[Piggy]

As far as what the south believed... well, it wasn't just rhetoric down there. They actually took action too. Secession declarations weren't written to get votes from anybody--it was too late for that. They were preparing for war and preparing to put their careers and lives on the line. So when they said they needed to secede, because the new northern power base wouldn't stop until all the slaves were emancipated, not only did history prove them right later, but they were fitting their actions to their words at the time.

This is where you swerve off course.

Secession also had to be "sold". Some of the more radical fringe believed the rhetoric, but there's no reason to believe that more mainstream politicians did.

What they indisputably did believe was that a Republican presidential victory would seal the deal for non-slave expansion and would effectively roadblock parity with slave expansion.

It's a lot like the Republican/Democrat arguments today -- the struggle for power results in lots of extreme rhetoric ("death panels", "holding the nation hostage", and so forth) as well as highly dysfunctional decisions like maybe not paying all our debts.

So the slave and free states saw themselves in a power struggle which simply became an end unto itself, like the party battles of today.

The big upshot of all that is that the slave states, stupidly, talked (and elected) themselves into a situation where secession became pretty much inevitable.

So the proximate cause for the war was expansion of slavery in the West, with a lot of scary rhetoric from the South thrown in about slippery slopes and universal abolition and the destruction of the entire Southern "way of life" and the decimation of the Southern economy by the North, while the larger (if less proximate) cause was the state of antagonism between the two camps.

You can draw parallels also between the Civil War and the slide into the equally tragic First World War.

 

[MaGZ]

Piggy,

I will buy into the pride in heritage thing when large numbers of southern blacks start flying this famous KKK emblem over their houses. I grew up in the south and remember naively thinking that 'the south will rise again' was just pride in one's region. Then I heard those charming folks from The White Citizens Council singing outside my grammar school the year it was going to be desegregated....To the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic... "Glory glory segregation. We don't want no integration...", ... His truth is marching on was replaced with "the south will rise again".

I was ten. And it shook the scales from my eyes. They weren't talking about building up the region (with emphasis on "region" of the country) but using it as a call to arms.

You know full well that the battle flag was co-opted by the Klan. Living in the region for generations, you also know full well that there are many blacks who are very proud of their southern rural roots, their culture, their families and their upbringing. Yet they're not flying the stars and bars Confederate battle flag.

Why is this only a symbol to white people?

Because it is a symbol of White Southerners who fought and died for an independent Southern Nation--an Idea that continues to this day.

 

[slingblade]

And stock car racin'.

Piggy is right. Much of the south has abandoned the Stars and Bars as their "symbol", and those that retain it do so with full knowledge that it is a considered a racist symbol. There are very many southerners who are very ashamed of the racist history of the south and who reject racism entirely.

I would tend to agree, being from Oklahoma, having blood relatives in Arkansas, and in-laws in Georgia.

The most common saying I heard was, "Yes, I know (it's seen as a racist symbol), but I don't mean it that way."

And as far as I could tell, these folks were sincere.

My brother had a confederate flag tattoo, but I wouldn't have ever considered him a racist, much less the stereotypical southern racist. In his later years, he regretted that tatt.

 

[sarge]

because it is a symbol of white southerners who fought and died for an independent southern nation where racism was embodied in the institution of slavery--an idea that continues in a lunatic fringe of white racists to this day.

ftfy.