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Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

phildonnia said:
Interesting fact I found: according to Dr. Wik E. Pedia, the 'X' shape was used, rather than an upright cross so as not to alienate Southern Jews.
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What, both of them?

Hellbound said:
I thought is was "More, more, more"?
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:drinkspit:


Piggy said:
I disagree. Seems to me, for a lot of people, it's more a symbol of "You can't tell me what to do or what to say or what to wear, and you're not going to tell me I can't fly a flag my ancestors [supposedly] fought under".

It's like the whole "They're coming to take away our guns" thing. People push back against that if they believe it's true (regardless of the fact that it isn't).

And folks get ticked off if you try to tell them that this symbol of Southern identity -- which is what it has become for lots of folks -- is now forbidden.
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So a symbol for Southern Pigheadedness, then? ;)
 
ZirconBlue said:
phildonnia said:
Interesting fact I found: according to Dr. Wik E. Pedia, the 'X' shape was used, rather than an upright cross so as not to alienate Southern Jews.
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What, both of them?

<snip>
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They're everywhere, man.

http://www.guidebookamerica.com/news/antebellum_jews/index.htm
Jews in Antebellum South?? Yes, Indeed!

In 1820 there were just a couple of thousand Jews in the United States, but anti-Semitism in Central Europe combined with cheaper transatlantic ship passage to swell the population through the mid-1800's, with many of the immigrants landing in Louisiana just as the cotton empire moved westward toward the fertile lands bordering the Mississippi River. Their experiences have often been overlooked in southern history, but a new exhibit in the West Feliciana Historical Society museum in St. Francisville attempts to rectify that omission.

...

As these hard-working immigrants prospered, the South became the center of Jewish population in the country, offering religious and political freedom as well as the possibility of great financial success. Synagogues and temples were built, cemeteries established and charitable organizations formed as the Jews shared their prosperity in great and far-reaching philanthropies, funding museums and zoological parks, civic improvements and levees, hospitals and public schools for both black and white students.
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:eek:
 
Drachasor said:
And would it be ok for it to be used today if the Germans using it pretended that Nazis were not against the Jews and that was a very minor part of WW2? If they said the Nazi Flag was just a symbol of german power, solidarity, and work ethic? The only "evolution" the Confederate Flag has undergone is a whitewashing of history. That's extremely abhorrent and I don't see why it should be condoned anymore than the original meaning of the flag.
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I'm not concerned with what would be "OK". Just what people actually think, as opposed to what other folks assume they must (or could not possibly) be thinking.


Drachasor said:
Let's call it what it is. The Confederate Flag. I don't see why you want to refer to the flag as just part of what it is. It would be like calling the American flag "the bars" or something.
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But it wasn't "the Confederate Flag". Not the flag we're talking about here.

The SAC is what we're discussing -- which is what that particular design is commonly called.

Of course, the term "stars and bars" is now widely associated with it as well, so much so that it's probably a more popular term for it, but for this thread it's probably best to use the more traditional reference for SAB.


Drachasor said:
Here it is symbolizing denialism and a whitewashing of historic fact regarding slavery.
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How do you know? What's your basis for saying that?



Drachasor said:
Except it is a symbol of those ancestors supporting and fighting for slavery.
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If that's true, then US flags from before the Civil War must also be symbols of supporting slavery and fighting to establish a slave state.

You're simply trying to assert that what you see in the flag is the only thing anyone could possibly see in it, and if they claim to see something else, then they're either lying or somehow wrong about it.

Which to me is absurd.

Drachasor said:
I see no reason to look on with acceptance on those that fly the Confederate flag. Edit: I respect the free speech involved in flying it. I am merely saying it's really offensive and should be considered as such.
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Which you do. And that's your way of feeling about it. So be it.
 
ZirconBlue said:
So a symbol for Southern Pigheadedness, then? ;)
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Yeah, actually. That's a good way to put it.

Or it can be.

It can also be a symbol of outright hate, even when slathered with a denial and the word "love".

But some little high school girl in the Alabama exurbs who slaps a Bocephus Rebel Flag sticker on her truck window is just doing the equivalent of yelling "woo hoo!" or wearing a Smith & Wesson belt buckle. She's not even thinking about wars or slavery.
 
Piggy said:
Not the flag we're talking about here.

The SAC is what we're discussing -- which is what that particular design is commonly called.
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When I hear the term "St. Andrew's Cross" in terms of vexillology, I think (as do most people outside of the USA) of the Scottish flag, which has a much more long-standing claim to that name. What you're discussing isn't the Scottish flag, so call it something else.
 
Madalch said:
When I hear the term "St. Andrew's Cross" in terms of vexillology, I think (as do most people outside of the USA) of the Scottish flag, which has a much more long-standing claim to that name. What you're discussing isn't the Scottish flag, so call it something else.
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It really doesn't matter what they call their flags in Scotland. It doesn't somehow void American nomenclature for our flags.
 
Speaking as Brit with a real love of Southern US Rockabilly & Blues. The rebel flag (that's what we call it here) is really nothing more than a 'logo' symbolising American Southern Music... but what do we know. :)
 
Arisia said:
I've never heard anything else besides the Scottish flag called St. Andrew's Cross. Of course, I'm a New Englander of Scottish descent.
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Sure, that's not surprising.

But go to Google images and search for St. Andrew's Cross with the terms Confederacy or CSA or Civil War and see what you get.

And that's not surprising either. I mean, you had a lot of Scots-Irish boys up in those Southern Appalachian hills.

It's funny, my dad and his brother are deep into the genealogy in their retirement years, and they've gotten to the point of roaming around rural court houses and libraries and churches and graveyards.

Anyway, one letter they found was from some hillbilly ancestors if mine -- themselves descendants of men who'd been kicked out of England and later out of Ireland -- who were paying their local and state tax on their land and livestock and whiskey, just noting that they weren't including the portion for the federal government, which they did not know the location of and as far as they could tell had received no services from.
 
Stray Cat said:
Speaking as Brit with a real love of Southern US Rockabilly & Blues. The rebel flag (that's what we call it here) is really nothing more than a 'logo' symbolising American Southern Music... but what do we know. :)
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There are a lot of people over here who see it that way too, although they would add "and culture", despite the protests that this is impossible.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Not only were there fairly prominent Jewish communities in the south, particularly in New Orleans, Charleston and Savannah, but they were supporters of the Confederacy, and fought in the war.

http://www.jewish-history.com/civilwar/Default.htm


Unlike the completely disproven lie* that blacks fought for the Confederacy, there were numerous Jewish "rebs".


*I'm sure MaGZ will be along with a Metapedia article to prove me "wrong".
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I always thought the Jews settled in Savannah to make money off the slave trade.
 
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