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"Concrete Smashing" via exotic beam device

I am a physicist. I took a first look at LaViolette's website, and drew the conclusion that I didn't need to take a second look. He's convinced that the Biefield-Brown effect is a manifestation of antigravity when it's well known not to be, he claims his theory gives better explanations of phenomena that are already explained but doesn't actually derive these explanations, and he cites without corroboration some anecdotal accounts from third parties of absurd results. Worst of all, his references are principally to his own work going back about 15 years. Google his name and you'll find some highly critical discussions of his work, and some new age crap. He's a crank, pure and simple.

I've certainly googled him before, but don't remember finding anything by certified physicists. Maybe I didn't try hard enough. Beside the Hans Bethe comment, there's a review of one of his books on amazon.com from a Brazilian physicist.

But I wouldn't expect you to be in the least skeptical about what he has to say. After all, it's something you want to hear, so it must be true, right?

I don't appreciate this, but it's sort of par for the course for JREF, isn't it? To answer your question - no, it is not necessarily true. First of all, LaViolette's work on subquantum mechanics probably doesn't qualify as a physics theory, in the sense of it not being mathematical enough. Nevertheless, he has somehow gotten quantitative predictions from it. Hence, he may be "not even wrong", yet nevertheless have gotten a handle on what, someday, will be part of a respectable theory.

As far as the experimental reports of concrete smashing, they also don't need to be true. (What a silly accusation!) From a scientific perspective, it's perfectly legitimate to treat them as tentatively false, until verified independently.

Let's be clear here, though, about one thing. Regardless of your opinion of LaViolette, the claim of smashing 4 inches of concrete, experimentally, in a lab, is an unambiguous one. No mistaking it. So, either the phenomenon is real, or Podkletnov lied to LaViolette, or LaViolette lied.

Do you agree with this last sentence?

When you ask your physicist friends, be sure to mention that the gravity pulses travel at several thousand times the speed of light.

Dave


Will do! Two (or maybe 3) that I will definitely ask are known to me, but not friends. I should have enough time to knock on a few other doors, and if so, these other physicists will be complete strangers.

I will also have copies of the Podkletnov and Modanese paper printed out.

Since you're a physicist, I hereby invite you to contribute to this informal survey, by telling us whether or not you have even heard of the concrete smashing effect claimed (so we're told by LaViolette) by Podkletnov and his team, before reading this thread.
 
So, either the phenomenon is real, or Podkletnov lied to LaViolette, or LaViolette lied.

Do you agree with this last sentence?

No, absolutely not. It's a classic truther false dilemma. Genuine misunderstandings and misinterpretations can occur, and people can make mistakes.

Remember, too, that there are examples of scientists believing things that violated the laws of physics that subsequently turned out not to be true - Fleischmann and Pons are the classic example. Whether they can actually be accused of lying, or simply of being insufficiently self-critical, is a difficult question to resolve. We all want to find new phenomena; sometimes we see them when they aren't there. It's the same sort of mental process, I suspect, as the one that gives rise to a conspiracy theory.

Since you're a physicist, I hereby invite you to contribute to this informal survey, by telling us whether or not you have even heard of the concrete smashing effect claimed (so we're told by LaViolette) by Podkletnov and his team, before reading this thread.

No, I'd never heard of it. I'd heard of Townsend Brown's work on electrostatic thrust-generating systems, and heard of its misrepresentation as an anti-gravity effect, though. LaViolette is largely building on that initial piece of woo.

Dave
 
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Volts * Amps = Watts

Regardless, the required energy levels are not something that could easily be produced without an equally amazing scifi macguffin such as a Zero Point Module from Stargate.


Well, then that should pose no problem because STARGATE IS REAL!!!!!!!
 
i think the real question is how many trips can the delorean make with that amount of power

also, perhaps a bank of mr fusions could provide the requisite power output
 
Back in the day, my profs used to say that Power = Volts * Amps. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Yeah, or P= A2R , or , V2/R

So what's your point?

12,300 trillion volts at what current then metamars?

If the voltage is dropped by half you will have to compensate by upping the current by 2 times. You want to do this with 12,300 billion volts then the current will have to go up by a factor of 1000.

If the material does not matter and all one requires is something with mass to react to the pulse that affects that mass in a time period 1000 times faster than lightspeed would have then we could expect the molecules of air between the transmitter and the target to also be moved just as efficiently. I do not recall there being a superhurricane wind accompanying the tower collapses.

Frankly at the power output you would require I am surprised that the air wasn't crackling with a static discharge of emmense proportions due to the column of air from ionosphere on down to the surface all moving at once.
 
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Yeah, or P= A2R , or , V2/R

So what's your point?

12,300 trillion volts at what current then metamars?

If the voltage is dropped by half you will have to compensate by upping the current by 2 times. You want to do this with 12,300 billion volts then the current will have to go up by a factor of 1000.

If the material does not matter and all one requires is something with mass to react to the pulse that affects that mass in a time period 1000 times faster than lightspeed would have then we could expect the molecules of air between the transmitter and the target to also be moved just as efficiently. I do not recall there being a superhurricane wind accompanying the tower collapses.

Frankly at the power output you would require I am surprised that the air wasn't crackling with a static discharge of emmense proportions due to the column of air from ionosphere on down to the surface all moving at once.

Since we're talking about a device that (apparently) works in a single-shot pulse mode, and since 10 million volts already seems extraordinarily large (that's just a guess), tasked with increasing the power output of such a device, looking to increase the voltage is the last things I'd try. (Well, after confirming that 10 million volts is at the upper end of current technology.)

I'd probably look at scaling up the size of the capacitors, and furthermore look at increasing the frequency with which they can be charged (and hence, discharged). It seems clear enough that Podkletnov has already varied the speed of capacitor discharge (based on LaViolette's statements), so that's also something to look at, though I haven't a clue how that's accomplished.

The right question, in terms of some type of weapon designed to take out, oh, let's just say, a very large object in 10 seconds or less (where time of flight is truly negligible :) ), is "How can I increase the power?" not "How can I increase the voltage?"

Note well that a 10 second destruction window would mean that a premise of 8,600,000 square feet is a straw man. The correct question would have, as a design constraint, 8,600,000 square feet per 10 seconds.

Really, though, shouldn't you be asking Doc Brown how it's done? Quite frankly, I don't even know what a Marx capacitor is. Sounds Communistic.... I'm actually more interested in figuring out if the phenomenon is real, than I am figuring out if it could have been used for nefarious purpose in, oh, let's just say, our country's (US) recent history.

BTW, as far as I can tell, the speed of the beam has nothing to do with it's effect. As stated, at least for the 'pendulum moving regime', only the target's mass seems to matter (there's also a dependence on speed of rise of the voltage). It's a reasonable guess that a beam would create a wind in open air, but considering how much less dense air is than concrete, I wouldn't bet my life on such a wind being noticeable.
 
The correct question would have, as a design constraint, 8,600,000 square feet per 10 seconds.

For those people who find the pulverisation of concrete to be unremarkable, I suppose a better design constraint question is "How do I destroy X many welds of core columns, and Y many bolts of perimeter columns, in 10 seconds?"

An no, ito of a weaponized Podkletnov device, I haven't a clue how to answer that, I'm merely pointing at a question which makes more sense.
 
I'm not a physicist, but I'd like to know what the implications of a device shooting gravity beams at 1000 times the speed of light would be.

Would the beam reach the target before you fired it?

Would it mean that the further you were from your target, the sooner the target would be destroyed?

Have I read too much Sci Fi?

If you're not damn careful the beams will nip round the back of the Universe and zap you before you fired them.
 
I'm not a physicist, but I'd like to know what the implications of a device shooting gravity beams at 1000 times the speed of light would be.
A thousand times the speed of light? So when's the rewriting of Einstein's Theory of Relativity taking place?
 
Since we're talking about a device that (apparently) works in a single-shot pulse mode, and since 10 million volts already seems extraordinarily large (that's just a guess), tasked with increasing the power output of such a device, looking to increase the voltage is the last things I'd try. (Well, after confirming that 10 million volts is at the upper end of current technology.)

10 million volts on a capacitor would be coming pretty close. This has to be DC if you are chraging a capacitor.

I'd probably look at scaling up the size of the capacitors, and furthermore look at increasing the frequency with which they can be charged (and hence, discharged).


If you are speaking 'frequency as in cycles per second of current(like the 60 hertz household supply) then you have no idea what you are talking about. Capacitors can store a charge on their plates. That's the equivalent of a battery. Capacitors simply cannot be a supply of alternating current.
If you mean recycling time then that would depend on the current being drawn which will be limited by the resistance of the circuit it is supplying, the closer to a dead short, the faster the discharge. In recharging the same applies.

Photographic flashes use Dc to run an oscillator that runs at a very high frequency, that is fed to a transformer which bumps the voltage up many times, the o/p of the transformer is fed through a full wave rectifier (diodes) which in turn create a DC voltage to charge a capacitor typically to 600 volts which then on being switched will discharge through the strobe light.
This gets the job done but is incredibly inefficient. If such a circuit was used to charge a very large capacitor (say the size of the towers themselves) the charge time would depend on the amount of current being supplied. There will be losses in the transformer and through the diodes not to mention in the oscillator circuit itself. Then of course this is only the power supply, there will be losses in the beam creation equipment as well.

It seems clear enough that Podkletnov has already varied the speed of capacitor discharge (based on LaViolette's statements), so that's also something to look at, though I haven't a clue how that's accomplished.

Only by reducing the circuit's resistance as 'seen' by the capacitor.
There are problems also with a fast cycle/recyle rate in that the plates of the capacitor are going to move.
The recharge rate must be about an hour in order to use it twice on the towers.

The right question, in terms of some type of weapon designed to take out, oh, let's just say, a very large object in 10 seconds or less (where time of flight is truly negligible :) ), is "How can I increase the power?" not "How can I increase the voltage?"

NO, you still need to increase the power o/p in order to do a floor by floor destruction and now you require the power to keep that o/p at the required level for 10 seconds. Didn't you say this is a single shot pulse? ten seconds is a helluva long pulse.

Note well that a 10 second destruction window would mean that a premise of 8,600,000 square feet is a straw man. The correct question would have, as a design constraint, 8,600,000 square feet per 10 seconds.

NO, 8,6000,000 square feet is not a strawman. (it seems that after all the schooling that Jay Utah gave you, you still don't know what a strawman arguement is)It is only the beginning. You have to calculate the cubic feet of concrete to be pulverised and then calculate the energy required to pulverise it and design a device that can deliver that energy over a ten second time span.


Really, though, shouldn't you be asking Doc Brown how it's done? Quite frankly, I don't even know what a Marx capacitor is. Sounds Communistic.... I'm actually more interested in figuring out if the phenomenon is real, than I am figuring out if it could have been used for nefarious purpose in, oh, let's just say, our country's (US) recent history.

Well you have found one physicist here who says its not real.

BTW, as far as I can tell, the speed of the beam has nothing to do with it's effect. As stated, at least for the 'pendulum moving regime', only the target's mass seems to matter (there's also a dependence on speed of rise of the voltage). It's a reasonable guess that a beam would create a wind in open air, but considering how much less dense air is than concrete, I wouldn't bet my life on such a wind being noticeable.

Why would the speed at which something is moved depend on its mass?

Gravity accellerates a dime at the same rate as silver dollar, a grain of sand at the same rate as both of those or a concrete block. If this is a focre applied to anything of mass then that force should be the same to anything it encounters.

While the speed at which this hypothetical beam travels is immaterial to its supposed effect it certainly is material to determining the veracity of all statements about this beam made by peoiple who propose that it acts 1000 times faster than electromagnetic radiation. If they are going to say that they have results that would contradict Einstein then they had better be able to back that up with extreme certainty and precision.
 
If you are speaking 'frequency as in cycles per second of current(like the 60 hertz household supply) then you have no idea what you are talking about.
I meant frequency of discharge. One discharge per pulse.

Capacitors can store a charge on their plates. That's the equivalent of a battery. Capacitors simply cannot be a supply of alternating current.
Again, my thinking was one discharge per pulse. If you want multiple pulses, you need multiple discharges. If you want high power, you need frequent discharges, at a high frequency. That's pretty clear, isn't it?

If you mean recycling time
OK, if that's the correct term, fine.

There are problems also with a fast cycle/recyle rate in that the plates of the capacitor are going to move.
Engineers and scientists are paid to solve problems....

The recharge rate must be about an hour in order to use it twice on the towers.
You lost me here. Why an hour? Why not 10 minutes? Why not 10 seconds?

In fact, I just checked PM, and it says is takes 120 s to charge the capacitors in that experiment.

NO, you still need to increase the power o/p in order to do a floor by floor destruction and now you require the power to keep that o/p at the required level for 10 seconds. Didn't you say this is a single shot pulse? ten seconds is a helluva long pulse.
I wasn't suggesting a 10 second pulse, I was suggesting a rapid succession of pulses.



NO, 8,6000,000 square feet is not a strawman. (it seems that after all the schooling that Jay Utah gave you, you still don't know what a strawman arguement is)It is only the beginning. You have to calculate the cubic feet of concrete to be pulverised and then calculate the energy required to pulverise it and design a device that can deliver that energy over a ten second time span.

Whatever the details are of the volume of concrete, a weaponized system, capable of destroying numerous floors in a 10 second span, needn't do it all in one shot, and, in fact, given a high enough pulse frequency, needn't do it in only 111 shots. An electron gun "shoots up" thousands of pixels of a computer monitor in a fraction of a second. In one second, it could certainly do so more often than 111 times. In 10 seconds....


Well you have found one physicist here who says its not real.
Dave Rogers opinion seems solely based on his opinion of LaViolette. He gives no indication of even having read the Podkletnov Modanese paper, freely available on arxiv.

I still intend to ask other physicists. I hereby predict that none of them will have seriously looked into this, though I will happily find out that I'm wrong.

Why would the speed at which something is moved depend on its mass?

Gravity accellerates a dime at the same rate as silver dollar, a grain of sand at the same rate as both of those or a concrete block. If this is a focre applied to anything of mass then that force should be the same to anything it encounters.
Huh? I think you mean that if the force varies linearly with mass, then acceleration should be constant.

In PM, they state that the force is, indeed, proportional to mass (so they must mean a linear dependence.) Not sure about the "concrete smashing" domain.

In PM, they also state
If the radiation beam propagates in air, some energy should be depleted from it as it propagates. If air molecules are accelerated exactly like the pendulums, at standard temperature and pressure the energy lost to air from the beam should be on the order of 10^-3 J/m. The velocity shear between the air in the path of the impulse and surrounding atmosphere should, in principal, lead to noticeable air turbulence after the pulse. While extensive studies of the behavior of the air in the radiation beam have not been conducted, observations of the air in the beam path with smoke show that only brief forward and back movement of the particles occurs. There is no significant airflow, as the impulse is very short, and neither turbulence nor vortex phenomena are observed.
(emphasis mine)

Apparently, air turbulence is tiny in the PM regime, but the likeliest reason is simply the shortness of the pulse.

A super duper weaponized beam might well be noticeable, though I get the idea that hurricane level winds won't occur. Then again, maybe they would. Then again, if you parked one of these puppies in the basement....

While the speed at which this hypothetical beam travels is immaterial to its supposed effect it certainly is material to determining the veracity of all statements about this beam made by peoiple who propose that it acts 1000 times faster than electromagnetic radiation. If they are going to say that they have results that would contradict Einstein then they had better be able to back that up with extreme certainty and precision.

I would agree that formal claims about superluminal velocity cannot be accepted without experimental proof, and that if such formal claims were made (such as in a published journal article), and then disproved, we'd certainly have our doubts about other claims. However, smashed concrete is a rather unambiguous claim, and even if Podkletnov, et. al., erred in velocity measurements, it doesn't necessarily follow that concrete smashing has to be discounted.

Not unless Uri Geller is part of the experimental team!!!

BTW, I didn't notice any speed of light claims in the PM paper. So, I don't know if PM have actually made this claim in the literature.

As for informal claims -e.g. hearsay relayed by LaViolette - there's less reason to take them seriously.
 
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"How do I destroy X many welds of core columns, and Y many bolts of perimeter columns, in 10 seconds?"
Easy, fly a 757 in the building and let the impact damage and the fires take care of the rest.


Yeah, that was my thinking. Airplane, jet fuel, office equipment, let burn for about an hour. That should do it.
 
This reference states that Podkletnov hasn't provided any photographics or video evidence of "beams of force capable of shattering brick and warping metal like a sledgehammer"

That doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. What could possibly be the problem with showing something like that?
 
I meant frequency of discharge. One discharge per pulse.


Again, my thinking was one discharge per pulse. If you want multiple pulses, you need multiple discharges. If you want high power, you need frequent discharges, at a high frequency. That's pretty clear, isn't it?


OK, if that's the correct term, fine.

So what is the source by which these giant capacitors might be charged several times a second with millions or billions of volts? Each quick pulse is going to require a set amount of power o/p.


Engineers and scientists are paid to solve problems....

Wow, you can dodge and wave your hands at the same time.:eek:


You lost me here. Why an hour? Why not 10 minutes? Why not 10 seconds?

In fact, I just checked PM, and it says is takes 120 s to charge the capacitors in that experiment.

I was using the max time allowed since the two buildings fell approx an hour apart.

The experiment punched a small amount of concrete. Much more power would be required to do an entire floor's worth. Charge time of a capacitor depends on the resistance AND the capacitance of the circuit. Larger capacitor=more charge= longer charge time

Here is a primer on capacitors.


I wasn't suggesting a 10 second pulse, I was suggesting a rapid succession of pulses.

Which only begs the question of the energy source again.



Whatever the details are of the volume of concrete, a weaponized system, capable of destroying numerous floors in a 10 second span, needn't do it all in one shot, and, in fact, given a high enough pulse frequency, needn't do it in only 111 shots. An electron gun "shoots up" thousands of pixels of a computer monitor in a fraction of a second. In one second, it could certainly do so more often than 111 times. In 10 seconds....


A CRT is exciting molecules to release minute amounts of light and typically has a potential difference between anode and cathode of 20,000 volts. You are proposing something that is billions of times larger in scale. Ask yourself this, why can an ant carry many more times its mass easily whereas an elephant cannot( a scaling up of mass of the two animals of approx 1.6 billion). The effects of scaling up is not necssarily linear.

Dave Rogers opinion seems solely based on his opinion of LaViolette. He gives no indication of even having read the Podkletnov Modanese paper, freely available on arxiv.



I still intend to ask other physicists. I hereby predict that none of them will have seriously looked into this, though I will happily find out that I'm wrong.

They likely have not. There is enough seriously and professionally written material to command their time. Something that is highly anecdotal, not gonna be high on their lists. There is no shortage of crank stuff out there claiming to show Einstein to be wrong. Until someone actually gets down to properly conducting experiments, writing papers and doing the work few will take them seriously. In order to confidently attempt a replication of their experiments that work[.b] needs to be done first.


Huh? I think you mean that if the force varies linearly with mass, then acceleration should be constant.

Correct, I should have stated that gravitational accelleration is independant of mass. So, if concrete is moved 100mm then so should air, steel, tables, people, dust. How again is this beam getting to only the concrete?

In PM, they state that the force is, indeed, proportional to mass (so they must mean a linear dependence.) Not sure about the "concrete smashing" domain.

In PM, they also state

(emphasis mine)

Apparently, air turbulence is tiny in the PM regime, but the likeliest reason is simply the shortness of the pulse.

Tiny air movement=tiny concrete movement.

A super duper weaponized beam might well be noticeable, though I get the idea that hurricane level winds won't occur. Then again, maybe they would. Then again, if you parked one of these puppies in the basement....

Well I'm figuring that you might well want to cause a top down collapse since that's what we saw occuring. How about you postulate a senario and timeline for this that will match what was seen.

I would agree that formal claims about superluminal velocity cannot be accepted without experimental proof, and that if such formal claims were made (such as in a published journal article), and then disproved, we'd certainly have our doubts about other claims.

Bingo, so when might Podkletnov et al be readying themselves to go down in history alongside Newton and Einstein. They're on it as we speak, right?

However, smashed concrete is a rather unambiguous claim,

I can smash concrete in my backyard using sound tuned to the harmonic of the piece to be broken and make it look like its a sooper-dooper new beam that acts at superluminal speed. I wouldn't do that AND attempt to write a paper making that claim. Know why?

and even if Podkletnov, et. al., erred in velocity measurements, it doesn't necessarily follow that concrete smashing has to be discounted.

Well it most certainly does not necessarily mean that it has to be taken seriously either.

Not unless Uri Geller is part of the experimental team!!!

Maybe he changed his name to Podkletnov.:D

BTW, I didn't notice any speed of light claims in the PM paper. So, I don't know if PM have actually made this claim in the literature.

Fine, so when's Sci-Am gonna be doing an article on this now that its out in the open?

As for informal claims -e.g. hearsay relayed by LaViolette - there's less reason to take them seriously.

Heresay and anecdotes are nearly worthless.
 
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Has LaViolette also discovered a way to bend, reflect, or otherwise redirect gravitational force?

If not, then this magic gravity beam can only operate from line of sight.

So, which direction did the concrete-smashing blow come from?

If your answer is "straight down," then the whole contraption has to be in orbit. Which is quite impossible; the total amount of mass lifted into orbit since the start of the world's space programs wouldn't be sufficient to build a power plant that could power it. And there was already plenty of gravitational force pulling straight down on the concrete, more than sufficient to cause complete collapse. No beam needed.

If your answer is any other direction, show me how the debris from both towers (and wtc7, if that's part of your beam theory too) was blasted preferentially away from that direction. If the beam didn't have enough of an effect to make it obvious which direction the blow came from, then how much difference could it have made?

Either way, Occam's Razor says, no concrete-smashing gravity beam.

All you have to do to pulverize an acre of 4-inch-thick concrete is drop it to the ground from a height of a few stories or more.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 

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