Common Sense

[westprog]

What is the probability that all of these (first time) events occurred within hours of each other on the same day and at the same location?

Now... compare that - with the probability of explosives being used... and then tell me which scenario is more likely.

He's right. It was certainly an amazing coincidence that both towers got hit by planes on the same day. It's almost as if someone planned it.

 

[stateofgrace]

I have stated why so many people compare the collapses of WTC 1, 2, 7 to Controlled Demolitions... and that is because the only other time in history where we have seen images of tall buildings falling/crumbling to the ground in seconds is during a CD. I have also stated that I don't think WTC 1, 2 or 7 were CD... but rather another type of "demolition." Make no mistake... they were demolitions, just not controlled demolitions by exact definition.

Now... people try to debunk the Silverstein...quote, of pulling WTC 7:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7he_sAVs0A

By saying that he was referring to the firefighter effort in WTC 7. (Even though reports show that the firefighters had already left WTC 7 earlier in the day... maybe because - gee, let's see... the other two buildings had already crumbled to the ground. Do you really think any firefighters stayed in WTC 7 after WTC 1 & 2 fell)

And, also by claiming that... "pull" or "pulling" isn't a term used in CD. Well... fair enough... but these three demolitions weren't CD, so that's not a completely accurate comparison.

"Pulling," although, not commonly used when referring to a CD... is a word used when referring to demolitions.

"(4) "demolition" means the act of pulling down, destroying, removing, or razing a building or structure, in whole or in part (including the demolition of exterior walls or roof), or commencing such work with the intent of completing the same, all as determined by the building commissioner; provided, however, that the term "demolition" shall not include the ordinary maintenance or repair or an addition to any building or structure."

http://www.umass.edu/masscptc/bylaws/Demolition Delay 2 Chat.html

And, if you want real-world evidence of this word in use... than look no further than a demolition crew at ground zero, who uses this term in reference to demolishing WTC 6:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBDcXm7bc24

Some claim... that, 'pull it' is a term used by firefighters to evacuate a building. I have heard some firefighters say that this is a term which originated many many years ago... and that, most of today's firefighters no longer use it.

I have seen people make a point about how Silverstein would know old firefighter terminology... and someone replied, he probably didn't... he was quoting the Fire Department Commander. But... that's not true, because Silverstein's exact words are:

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I remember getting a call from the, uh, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'You know we've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is, is pull it.' Uh, and they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."[/FONT]

Read, just for once in your life read something other than CT BS.

http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.doc

 

[Firestone]

'pull it'

I love it when CTist come with the "pull it" argument.
You really have to be short of good arguments to come up with this silly self-debunking thing.

No wonder that 28th Kingdom does it!

 

[Paul]

"Pulling," although, not commonly used when referring to a CD... is a widely recognized term used by demolition crews.

"(4) "demolition" means the act of pulling down...

Seriously, is that the best you can do; a quote from a bylaw that happens to include the word pulling?

 

[Horatius]

Um.... Krypto. Left brainer

Yes, that's "Krypto the Super Dog". Excuse me for using his proper title, rather than being overly familiar, by using his name. Some of us prefer to maintain decorum!

I mean, you wouldn't expect me to call Superman "Kal-El", or even just "Kal", would you? Miss Manners would faint!

 

[28th Kingdom]

Seriously, is that the best you can do; a quote from a bylaw that happens to include the word pulling?

I guess you missed this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBDcXm7bc24

 

[28th Kingdom]

So now... I would like all of you great scientific minds to give me the probability of what Silverstein meant by his quote to, "pull it," in reference to WTC 7. Is it more likely that Silverstein was improperly using archaic firefighter terminology to refer to removing firefighters who weren't even in WTC 7... or is it more likely that Silverstein was using a very common and modern demolition term that refers to bringing down a building?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7he_sAVs0A

Please, also view this video before you reply:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_43SwWD9A

 

[The Doc]

I guess you missed this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBDcXm7bc24

Woah you really did miss the basics didn't you?

So how was building 6 actually brought down? Explosives? NO.

Building 6 was literally pulled down with cables. So yes, building 6 was actually pulled over. Are you going to tell me WTC7 was cabled up now?

 

[H'ethetheth]

No... here's a better example... Say this 18-wheeler plowed full speed into a 4 foot (thick) steel wall... what would happen to the 18 wheeler? It would either stop dead in its tracks...or it would ricochet off to the side (path of least resistance)

No, here's a better example: Say this boeing 757 plowed into two 757's standing behind one-another in front of a 4 foot thick steel wall.
Everything will eventually stop dead in it's tracks, just like the towers did, but after the impact it wil be mostly a pile of 757 debris stacked against the wall.

The important resemblance being that two similar things, consisting mostly of air and designed to be relatively lightweight, collide. Both are relatively weak structures: They can't take much more than they do every day. They will just crumble when they collide and move on together.

The important difference is that the tops of the WTC towers were being pulled along all the way by gravity.

 

[The Doc]

So now... I would like all of you great scientific minds to give me the probability of what Silverstein meant by his quote to, "pull it," in reference to WTC 7. Is it more likely that Silverstein was improperly using archaic firefighter terminology to refer to removing firefighters who weren't even in WTC 7...

"Pull" is not exclusive to firemen. It is also used by the military in the context of "abort".

Firefighters may not have been in building 7 but they were in close proximity up until the collapse according to the NIST.

or is it more likely that Silverstein was using a very common and modern demolition term that refers to bringing down a buildinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_43SwWD9A

"Pull" is only used in demolition terms to describe pulling a building down with cables.

 

[The Doc]

No... here's a better example... Say this 18-wheeler plowed full speed into a 4 foot (thick) steel wall... what would happen to the 18 wheeler? It would either stop dead in its tracks...or it would ricochet off to the side (path of least resistance)

You ever seen a crash-test video? Guess not...

I'm sure if said 18 wheeler was going at 550 mph it wouldn't just ricochet off to the site.

 

[28th Kingdom]

"Pull" is not exclusive to firemen. It is also used by the military in the context of "abort".

Firefighters may not have been in building 7 but they were in close proximity up until the collapse according to the NIST.



"Pull" is only used in demolition terms to describe pulling a building down with cables.

Why are you avoiding all of the great points I made in response to your post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2244827#post2244827

Please... you all accuse me of running away... now, face the facts, sister.

 

[uk_dave]

Silverstein's "pull it" quote has no place on this thread, which is about common sense versus reality.....

...or 28th Kingdom versus TRUTH

 

[stateofgrace]

So now... I would like all of you great scientific minds to give me the probability of what Silverstein meant by his quote to, "pull it," in reference to WTC 7. Is it more likely that Silverstein was improperly using archaic firefighter terminology to refer to removing firefighters who weren't even in WTC 7... or is it more likely that Silverstein was using a very common and modern demolition term that refers to bringing down a building?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7he_sAVs0A

Please, also view this video before you reply:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_43SwWD9A

You did not read did you ? I will quote for you, apologies for the long post.

The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt. [Fire Engineering magazine, 10/2002]

In another interview, Chief Nigro says,​

The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was [that] the collapse [Of the WTC towers] had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, 7 World Trade Center collapsed completely. http://tinyurl.com/g8c6y

And more from the firefighters.

7 World Trade Center was roaring. I remember being pulled off the pile like just before. It wasn't just before. It was probably an hour before 7 came down. –Firefighter Kevin Howe
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110469.PDF

Hayden: By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse. 


Firehouse Magazine: Was there heavy fire in there right away?
Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety. 


Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?
Hayden: Yeah, we had topull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. –Deputy Chief Peter Haydenhttp://tinyurl.com/zwtrs

There was a big discussion going on at that point about pulling all of our units out of 7 World Trade Center. Chief Nigro didn't feel it was worth taking the slightest chance of somebody else getting injured. So at that point we made a decision to take all of our units out of 7 World Trade Center because there was a potential for collapse.
Q. It was on fire, correct, Captain?
A. Yes, it was on fire at that time. Then they said it suffered some form of structural damage. These things were going on at the same time. The fact that we thought we found Ganci and Feehan and his place at 7 World Trade Center. Made the decision to back everybody away, took all the units and moved them all the way back toward North End Avenue, which is as far I guess west as you could get on Vesey Street, to keep them out of the way. –Captain Ray Goldbach
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110150.PDF

So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. 
– Capt. Chris Boylehttp://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

Someone gave a Mayday. I guess it was someone trapped under one of the pedestrian bridges. We started to go under there to look. One of the Chiefs pulled us out of there. He said don't go under there. ..We searched that building and then we started making another move in and we got pulledout again, because I guess the Chiefs were getting more in control of the situation. They pulled everybody out of there. ...that was probably like four or five o'clock before we stopped. –Firefighter Todd Fredrickson http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110403.PDF

When the third building came down that's where we were (StuyvesantHigh School). We were actually -- they pulled us all back. Actually they pulled us all the way back that far at the point because they didn't want any -- they didn't want us anywhere near it. Everyone was just running around. When the third building came down, we were on that corner in front of the school, and everybody just stood back.

They pulled us all back at that time, almost an hour before it, because they were sure -- they knew it was going to come down, but they weren't sure. So they pulled everyone back, and everybody stood there and we actually just waited and waited until it went down, because it was unsafe. They wouldn't let anyone next to I guess the two piles, we would call them, where one and two was. We stood back. We waited. –EMT Joseph Fortishttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110200.PDF

After that they decided to pull everybody out and I know -- what building was it? Building 5, I believe [sic], the other tall building there, the third building that came down, they were evacuating people. So everyone just pushed up West Street all the way up towards the high school there. I forget the name of the high school. –Firefighter Brian Russohttp://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110450.PDF

Then approximately I guess maybe two hours before number 7 came down, we went into Ground Zero and helped dig around and was there when they located Chief Feehan and one of the chiefs pulled us all out because they said 7 was going to come down. –Firefighter Kevin Quinn
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110339.PDF

So then they aborted us from setting up the tower ladder because they were worried about now Seven coming down. So then they pulled us away. This is where I kind of start remembering a lot.

We came around, I think we took Murray Street down the west side, and we stopped the rig and pulled over to the side and we all got out of the rig. We were standing, waiting for Seven to come down. We were there for quite a while, a couple hours.

During that time a couple of the members felt like we were being useless just standing around. We wanted to do something. So we started trying to walk down, trying to get into the pile. We kept on being turned around from chiefs, because they didn't want us near Seven.

As we were walking, we had to actually get a little closer to Seven. So we turned and looked at Seven, and that's when all the marble siding started popping off the side because it was starting to go down.

We worked our way putting out the car fires, which I don't know if there was ammunition, because there was a lot of cop cars, but there was explosions. Tires were exploding. There had to be about 15 or 20 car fires. We put them out as we worked our way down. –Firefighter Thomas Donato http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110471.PDF

They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on.

Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there.

Finally it did come down. From there -- this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down. That's when they let the guys go on. I just remember we started searching around all the rigs. –Firefighter Richard Banaciski
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110253.PDF

Then we were instructed to search through two or three buildings to make sure they were stable, and then they pulled everybody out because of the pink building. Was it 7 World Trade, that was going?
Q: Right. –Firefighter Adrienne Walsh
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110353.PDF

We operated until they finally started pullingpeople back. ...They pulled us back, I think it was like probably between 4 and 6, because of Seven. Seven was the concern at the time. –Firefighter Fred Marsilla http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

They put another engine company in there which augmented us. And the stream was even good enough to almost reach Tower 7. And then what happened was, we heard this rumbling sound and my father pulled us all back and then with that Tower 7 came down. –Firefighter Peter Blaichhttp://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/blaich.html

These firefighters mention being withdrawn from a different part of the WTC site because other buildings were believed to be in danger of collapse:
So we were in there just for a few minutes maybe and the chiefs pulled us out. They told us we had to get out, so we got out, and then later on we went back in again, and they pulled us out once more, and that was it. –Firefighter Peter Giammarinohttp://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110436.PDF

We proceeded to go back one block to that post then slowly but surely every two minutes or so
when we started to regroup we were pulledback further and further and further until we were behind – until we were past Stuyvesant High School –Firefighter Dean Beltrami http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110359.PDF

READ 28th, READ.

http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Lies.doc

 

[Belz...]

Don't you think that the upper mass' momentum coupled with inertia and the fact that below it is a rock solid 70+ floors of undamaged building with 47 core columns, floors and steel outer columns... would propel it off to the side of the building (where there is no resistance) instead of down and through a structure which had the ability to support (massive resistance) the weight of the upper mass?

Er... no. Ask an engineer. Or a physician. Or a grade-school kid.

That's okay... because all of the thousands of first hand accounts (including firefighters and policemen) of hearing explosions going off... has been debunked as exploding cans of hair spray.. the Towers were only a few miles from Jersey, weren't they?

You DO know that a lot of things can explode in a fire and NOT be C4, right ?

 

[H'ethetheth]

Er... no. Ask an engineer. Or a physician. Or a grade-school kid.

I like that order.












Yes, I'm an engineer.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Silverstein's "pull it" quote has no place on this thread, which is about common sense versus reality.....

...or 28th Kingdom versus TRUTH

Yes, it does... I am using common sense evidence to prove the Official Story to be false... now face the FACTS! Please... stop avoiding all of the pearls I have been casting before you... and start debunking them... otherwise, you concede defeat.

 

[28th Kingdom]

Er... no. Ask an engineer. Or a physician. Or a grade-school kid.

Hahahahahaha... No emphasis necessary.

 

[westprog]

Please... stop avoiding all of the pearls I have been casting before you... and start debunking them... otherwise, you concede defeat.

I'd be interested who thinks 28K is for real. Some of this stuff is too good to be true.

 

[Firestone]

Yes, it does... I am using common sense evidence to prove the Official Story to be false... now face the FACTS! Please... stop avoiding all of the pearls I have been casting before you... and start debunking them... otherwise, you concede defeat.

You have already been utterly defeated on this forum, dear.

By lying, by accusing without evidence, by showing an incredible lack of understanding of ... well of everything really.
By putting half the forum on ignore, and by in fact ignoring the rest of the forum as well.

Even for a 9/11-CTist you have performed poorly, and that says it all.