Common Sense

[Belz...]

Failure is imminent... according to what? Your opinion? Your speculation?

Er... I'm sure even you would recognise that, in this situation, failure is imminent. Or do you think that heat-weakened steel columns bearing many times the weight they were designed to carry are invincible ?

How would arab terrorists get access to plant explosives in the buildings? That's why you fly planes into buildings.

Precisely.

What increasing mass? The floors were exploding... so how was the upper mass increasing in size? Were the floors pancaking? That couldn't be the case, cus NIST says a pancake collapse isn't possible on the WTC Towers... even though, they also claim the upper mass increased in size as it fell... so, how is it increasing in size? The floors are exploding outward... so what material is being added to the upper mass that increases its size as the collapse progresses?

I can see that asking questions is far more fun than actually answering them.

Does NIST have proof that the upper mass was increasing in size...

How could it possibly DEcrease ?

Everyone knows what? That the upper mass was increasing in size? How do they know this? We can't even see the upper mass for the majority of the collapse, so what tells us it's increasing in size?

Common sense. And this time it agrees with reality.

There is absolutely no proof that the towers could have fell the way they did from the damage that was done.

Easily said when you don't read the relevant data.

Common sense tells us... given the knowledge of free falls speeds... that these towers could not have collapsed as fast as they did without a synthetic catalyst like explosives.

And the explosives would've accelerated the collapse how ?

Why? Because that would mean this steel structured building not only failed... but offered virtually no resistance. 10 floors failing per second... that's fast.

Yes, I expect that a floor wouldn't offer any significant resistance to such a huge, falling mass.

Please, don't project your biases onto me. I'm non-partisan... and by that I mean... I think 99% of all politicians (democrats and republicans) are evil.

"Evil" ?

That's an objective opinion if I ever heard one.

 

[DavidJames]

I've now put 28 in the same mental ward as Christophera. I don't believe 28 is mentally stable and I won't be responding to his posts anymore.

 

[Horatius]

All they need to do is release a suitcase nuke or dirty bomb... wherein killing 150,000 people and you will have complete and utter chaos, which will bring about martial law. This can all happen in the span of one day... It will be like 9/11 times 50... Can you imagine it? Are you ready?

Man, you go to bed at a reasonable hour, and you miss all the good stuff. That freefall "calculation"? Classic. Thank you all for saving it from the Memory Hole.

Now he's (mis-)quoting Team America:World Police? I think we've officially pushed him off the edge.

 

[LashL]

I was going off of freefall times that someone else came up with. According to this video, freefall for steel beams a certain size would be 4.7 seconds over the distance of 100 meters.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ml_n5gJgQ_U

So we divide 100 meters into the height of WTC 2 (415m) We get 4.15.

4.15 X 4.7 = 19.505 seconds.

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

 

[Horatius]

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

I think that was the "Mason Jar" moment. As in, that's what he was drinking the bootleg gin out of....

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Oh.
My.
Rule 8ing.
God.

Was that the "Perry Mason moment" that 28th promised?

And, had he not been ignoring half the forum, he would have seen one of the several times I posted http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2207994#post2207994 and perhaps caught himself before hitting submit.

 

[Big Les]

Actually, it's 450/11.

I was in Team America (Spotswoode in fact) idiom (911 x whatever). Any way you cut it, it's sig material.

 

[JonnyFive]

Oh lord... I just waded through the 17 pages of this thread that magically appeared over the weekend.

28th Kingdom, I notice that you have yet to post a single shred of real evidence for your theory of controlled demolitions... or whatever it is you subscribe to these days. You have failed to address your misunderstandings of physics, especially how acceleration works.

You have yet to post calculations of what happened that actually adhere to the laws of physics and mathematics. You can't simply multiply the time it takes something to fall 100m by 4 to get the time it takes it to fall from 400m. The fact you don't even understand that simple fact is highly damaging to your credibility.

Please post some evidence if you wish to change minds here. Insinuation and "it doesn't look right"/"common sense" are not evidence, sorry.

 

[R.Mackey]

[28^th Kingdom's denial] And this the original: [28^th Kingdom's incredibly stupid math error]

Holy smoking crap!

Maybe you should try some microwaves sometime... clearly whatever you're doing isn't working for you.

I believe they were some kind of star wars rocket/beam/lasers. It's kind of hard to explain - but I mean... they are like strong and fast... you know? Oh yea... and invisible... so no evidence is left in sight... that was the clever part of the whole blackjack cards.

It's hard to explain because it didn't happen.

I've already beat the Star Wars hypothesis to death, in this post. I don't expect you to understand a word of it, or indeed even to acknowledge your own shortcomings in education, but please give it a read. Ask questions if you want help.

I'll be glad to answer any and all questions as best I can, without insult. Learning is a positive thing. However, having seen the depth of your knowledge, there is clearly no need to put any credence whatsoever in your conclusions -- and those, I shall ignore.

 

[Belz...]

Mackey... don't you understand how abstract your calculations are?

That's one way of saying you don't understand physics, don't trust experts and don't want to change your views.

just abstract data and terms... that cannot be applied to the physical world of sight and sound and/or converted into visual simulations... because they are inconceivable i.e. unimaginable i.e. not plausible.

That's the problem with you twoofers. You don't trust numbers because you didn't go to school and don't understand how mathematics can effectively MODEL REALITY.

Here is what you might not understand.... our 5 senses are how we perceive reality.

And poorly at that.

Our five senses are separate from our thoughts (metaphysical - beyond the physical world)

An interesting, and unsupported assumption that would better be discussed in the philosophy and religion subforum. However, you are wrong. Our thoughts are very, very much dependent upon the 5 senses.

In order to prove something is possible in the physical world... you must show proof that can be observed with the 5 senses i.e. visual simulations.

Patently false. Or do you deny the existence of atoms ?

Your theories/calculations only exist in the infinite realm of thought where anything is possible...

That's a fine admission that you don't understand physics and mathematics.

When you look at angles that show the unobscured collapse of WTC 2... you can see that the building is still falling faster than the debris, down to at least the last 400+ feet.

Now who's defying the laws of physics ?

How can I disprove something that is beyond my senses? I can't... I can neither prove it nor disprove it... that's why the million dollar challenge (according to what I know of it) seems to be a paradoxical impossibility.

Keep digging that hole, 28. Now you've shown a total misunderstanding of the nature of evidence and the scientific process.

Do you have thoughts? There is your proof. Thoughts are a psychic ability that creates a communication link between the immaterial and material worlds.

Or just brain chemicals dancing around. Take your pick.

We already know that invisible forces (beyond the 5 senses) can move physical objects. Just go play with some magnets and you will espy that.

That doesn't make them metaphysical. Boy, oh boy. You don't know much about anything, do you ?

 

[Kage]

I'm starting to seriously question 28th reading comprehension, since he has asked for the same proof twice (how long does it take an object to fal from freefall?)

I think that this is less of an argument about how commons sense works than how 28th doesn't use it anyway.

I think he is probably asleep.

 

[Belz...]

That perception is part of the sixth sense. The sixth sense is an all inclusive perception that includes everything beyond the 5 senses.

And therefore NOT a sense at all. How do you manage to debunk yourself like this ? I don't get it.

And, why the need to cast invectives at me and my intelligence?

Your what ?

Are you serious? Who uses a microwave to cook food...

I do... does wonder on bacon or other thin pieces of meat.

I don't even understand this one...the waves are perceived with hearing.

You HEAR the radio waves ? That's one, powerful set of lobes you have.

Nothing exists until observed.

Solipsist nonsense. Go away, sophist.

 

[Architect]

I see he's still claiming that we made up HIS crap calculation...

 

[HeyLeroy]

Some quotes that come to mind when I think of Troofers:

Facts are stupid things.

Ronald Reagan, 1988

I have opinions of my own -- strong opinions -- but I don't always agree with them.

George H. W. Bush

Animals, which move, have limbs and muscles; the earth has no limbs and muscles, hence it does not move.

Scipio Chiaramonti, professor of philosophy and mathematics, University of Pisa, 1633

X-rays are a hoax.

Lord Kelvin

My dynamite will sooner lead to peace than a thousand world conventions. As soon as men find that in one instant whole armies can be destroyed they surely will abide by golden peace.

Alfred Nobel, inventor of dynamite.

Atomic energy might be as good as our present-day explosives, but it is unlikely to produce anything very much more dangerous.

Winston Churchill, 1939

Christ cannot possibly be a Jew. I do not have to prove that scientifically. It is a fact!

Joseph Goebbels

 

[HeyLeroy]

That perception is part of the sixth sense. The sixth sense is an all inclusive perception that includes everything beyond the 5 senses.

Dude, we have more than five senses. Five senses is an old fallacy. We have a sense of balance. We have a sense of hunger. We have a sense of spatial awareness. There are more, but I'm on ignore anyways.

 

[A W Smith]

so are you implying that if theres nothing around to be visibly affected wind and magnetic fields dont exist?



again, not all microwaves produce heat in an object, do they not exist? (and wtf are you living "off the grid" or something? everyone owns a microwave)



yep, definately off the grid....whats with the internet though?



do you hear the radio waves, or the sound waves after they are converted by a speaker?



maybe we are all just figments of your imagination, maybe your asleep and dreaming all of this

yup Kaziinsky's cabin must have a new tenant

 

[The Almond]

The term "damping ability" doesn't really apply.

Tell that to the Star Trek writers. Those inertial dampers sure made jumping to warp easy. Now if the WTC had a set of those...

 

[Architect]

But tall buildings do somethimes have intertial dampers, to help minimise the sway caused by wind (or earthquake) loadings. Funnily enough the infamous Citicorp Building is a classic case.

 

[Belz...]

No, I only eat whole unprocessed foods... mostly raw and organic. I would advise you do the same... lest you risk losing brain cells.

I see you believe in OTHER forms of nonsense. Typical. CTers usually have a plethora of idiotic beliefs in their portfolio.

Hey, I think I'm starting to catch on to this left-brain debunking game. SCORE!!

"Score" ? What is this, to you ? A game. We're discussing an event that killed thousands.

I don't claim everyone is a gov employee... because... I have a strong intuitive sense... which allows me to tell you all apart.

What a convenient excuse. You can eschew logic and reasoning because you "feel" things through.

The receiver converts the waves into audio dear boy... the speaker merely magnifies the sounds to a level perceivable to our ears.

Holy hell. Technology, too ? Is there ANYTHING you know anything about ?

Man, I would pay... money - GOOD MONEY to see someone create a visual simulation of the WTC 2 collapse. Wow, that would look so comical... you don't even know.

Yes, yes it would. Seeing a layman with no experience who doubts the expertise of structural engineers from around the world getting his behind handed to him by a computer is surely something of comedic value.

I'm gonna find the video for freefall. You people think the debris hit the ground first... yet you can't see the tower, because it's obscured by the debris...

And your strong intuitive sense tells you that it hit the ground before the debris, when we can clearly see the debris falling in front of the top block ?

NIST didn't even investigate the events of the collapse... they focused entirely on the pre-collapse. Unbelievable.

Quite believable, in fact. Why would they investigate the collapse once it's started ? Any first-grade student knows that, once that top section comes down, the rest is academic.

What was the purpose? To investigate the collapses, right?

Wrong again. To study the CAUSES of the collapse. This is supposed to help recommendations for future buildings, methinks.

"Try not to get too bogged down in the details."

It's a good thing that real investigators and scientists don't follow THAT advice.

Politicians (democrats and republicans) are the scummiest people on the earth.

Sweeping statement.

 

[The Almond]

But tall buildings do somethimes have intertial dampers, to help minimise the sway caused by wind (or earthquake) loadings. Funnily enough the infamous Citicorp Building is a classic case.

I saw a documentary about Japanese Pagodas where the Japanese would put a vertical, flexible wooden beam in the center to act as a Tuned Mass Damper during earthquakes, offsetting the vibration effects. Recalling how hard it was for me to design a mass damping system in my earthquake structural design class, I was amazed that their architects were able to do it so accurately without computer models and simulations.

/derail