Common Core Standards

[Brainster]

When you said parents can't help do you mean they're not allowed to, or that the parents don't understand the problems?

The latter. Here are some sample questions:

--Grade 2 addition:

Solve using your place value chart and number disks, composing a 10 when necessary: 53 + 19

--Grade 2 subtraction:

Craig checked out 28 books at the library. He read and returned some books. He still has 19 books checked out. How many books did Craig return? Draw a tape diagram or number bond to solve.

Solving the problems is easy. Figuring out what a place value chart or a number bond is, not so easy.

 

[Minoosh]

The latter. Here are some sample questions:



Solving the problems is easy. Figuring out what a place value chart or a number bond is, not so easy.

Both depend on vocabulary that has presumably been introduced in class. Not knowing vocabulary may make parents feel stupid. Feeling stupid makes people fearful. Feeling fearful makes them feel angry. Feeling angry makes them post rants on the Internet ...

The first is problem is just regrouping, as far as I can tell. Maybe the disks help some kids. Having a "place value chart" is IMO superfluous at this point - they just need to know ones and tens, and this could be modeled perfectly with pennies and dimes. Poker chips would also work (and this is probably what the discs really are). *But: These problems make sense only if they bring the manipulatives home with them.* Then parents say, Oh! They're talking about pennies and dimes! (Or poker chips!) Now I get it.

The second problem is actually an algebra problem. Find the missing addend. I think it's great kids do this in second grade. A tape diagram is probably a number line. I don't know about the number bond, though.

So these methods help some kids but others just pick up on it quickly and don't need charts, diagrams, poker chips or any of it.

BTW gobbledegook significantly predates Common Core.

The World Bank once did a study and determined the best tutor for a second-grade math student was a third-grade math student. Very disruptive would that be.

 

[elbe]

According to wiki a number bond is something we've all learned just likely never called it as such.

 

[Minoosh]

According to wiki a number bond is something we've all learned just likely never called it as such.

"Math facts" maybe doesn't sound sophisticated enough?

ETA: "Math sentences" is what I've most recently seen on kindergarten homework. These and the times tables are equations; why don't we just call them that? Because (IMO) Americans are afraid of equations.

ETA2: Now what can we call the times tables? Scalar matrices?

 

[Brainster]

According to wiki a number bond is something we've all learned just likely never called it as such.

Okay, so 28-19. Draw a number bond to show what we all have used.

 

[Minoosh]

Okay, so 28-19. Draw a number bond to show what we all have used.

If kids have workbooks with examples maybe the problem would be clearer. It's inordinately hard to decipher if presented with no explanation.

I think it would be something like:

Number sentence: n (books) + 19 (books) = 28 (books)
Related number sentence: 28 - 19 = n
n = 9
He returned 9 books.

I remember drills on how to rewrite number sentences with minor changes, but in very recent K-3 experience I saw no mention of "number bonds." This was at a math academy run by Soviet immigrants. The concepts haven't changed in decades. New lingo so a new generation can feel "bad at math."

 

[Brainster]

If kids have workbooks with examples maybe the problem would be clearer. It's inordinately hard to decipher if presented with no explanation.

I think it would be something like:

Number sentence: n (books) + 19 (books) = 28 (books)
Related number sentence: 28 - 19 = n
n = 9
He returned 9 books.

I remember drills on how to rewrite number sentences with minor changes, but in very recent K-3 experience I saw no mention of "number bonds." This was at a math academy run by Soviet immigrants. The concepts haven't changed in decades. New lingo so a new generation can feel "bad at math."

Yeah, I knew that 9 books was the answer. I asked for a number bond.

 

[Minoosh]

Yeah, I knew that 9 books was the answer. I asked for a number bond.

Right. And I was trying to figure out what that would look like, given the definition on Wikipedia.

Do you really think that I thought you didn't know the answer?

If you have a better idea what the instructions meant, please share.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

The social curriculum is a big deal in all schools, but it intersects the sub cultures and societies that intersect the school.

The biggest challenge say for kindergarten is for those students who have not been to a pre school or structured day care.

They spend many weeks learning that shoving is not an acceptable way to resolve conflicts.

So homeschool kids are violent and it takes weeks to train them that violence is not acceptable. lol. Since parents are the primary role models for children, we can conclude that homeschool parents are violent.

Since you've made such a fantastical claim about violence in kids that have not been to pre-school or day care do you mind providing some evidence about this? Golly, this is such a grave accusation that there ought to be scads of peer reviewed publications on it...

yeah, Brainster - if this is all so straightforward then why is it that a number of well-educated adults can't figure it out?

Economy of effort is really important to us in both academics and the physical education of our kids.

 

[Minoosh]

So homeschool kids are violent and it takes weeks to train them that violence is not acceptable. lol. Since parents are the primary role models for children, we can conclude that homeschool parents are violent.

I don't think that is what he was saying. Some sage once noted that posts starting with the word "so" often were introducing a straw man. In this case, it's pretending the other poster had said anything like home-school parents are violent. And, this is just me, but "lol" strikes me as introducing a mocking tone, implying superiority and thus personalizing the argument.

Also, the set of students who don't have experience with large group of peers does not equal the set of home-schooled students so I see an implied false equivalency.

The "since" is, for me, another red flag. It (IMO only) indicates a poster might be trying to introduce a questionable premise into a rebuttal. In my case I think I paid more attention to my older brothers (i.e. peers) than to my parents, so I don't accept "parents are the primary role models" as fact, though if you have evidence I'll look at it.

"And we can conclude ..." implies a closely reasoned argument, which yours isn't. I just happen to have an interest in what happens in public education, and in my experience it's a fact that 5-year-olds sometimes shove each other. I didn't derive any inferences about their parents from that. Not enough information. I can tell them to stop if they don't want to miss recess.

FYI, I agree with a lot of what you say about resources parents can devote to instruction vs. the public education system. If I weren't so interested in understanding what we can do with finite resources, I wouldn't be so obnoxious about trying to keep discussions re: standards respectful and evidence-based.

 

[Varanid]

My children are all very smart; I don't have any doubts about their ability to learn the stuff they need to know. And I think everyone learns it eventually anyway.

Ding to the ding ding. My highlighting. I think this becomes less true with advancing age/education, but as a general principle, in my view, simply providing an environment conducive to learning is one of the most important pieces of the pie.

I've long maintained that the social function of schools (up to and including colleges) is at least as important as the educational function.

You betcha'. I completely agree, school is as important (if not more) for social development than it is for intellectual development. I (as a full-fledged, card-carrying nerd) remember precious little biology that I learned in high school. However, I could write volumes about the social customs I ********** up, er, learned about, in the same time.

School teaches you how to behave with the other members of the ant hill. Which long gave me reservations about homeschooling...

I have taught a lot of environmental ed programs to home school groups (and groups from public and private schools) over the years. I have had at least passing experience with the entire gamut, from kids wearing homemade dresses who recited bible verses before lunch to pink-haired 9 year olds with Che Guevara t-shirts and attitudes. As much as some of them annoy me, my experience has been remarkably unremarkable. Most are as well adjusted as any 9 or 15 year old is, which is to say, not at all. Jokes aside, they do not seem to me, to be any more socially awkward than the great unwashed lot of them.

Long before I started teaching, I would naively opine that homeschooled children were missing a social component of their education. While I remain convinced that this is a distinct possibility, I think that the modern trend is moving towards homeschool groups. This is arguably great for the kids' social development, but kind of defeats the idea of an individualized approach to education. Rather than tailoring the children's education to suit their needs/aptitudes, the parents tend to be overwhelmed by the enormity of the commitment, and tend to go with the flow, and sign up for whatever the group is doing.

This would be a problem, except for my comment above. They will learn what they need to learn (Basics -reading/writing/arithmetic).

We're not sure which is worse - the lack of education or the lack of decent social skills the public schools are responsible for.

I understand your sentiment, but like it or not, your children must learn to deal with the products of the public school system. Not withstanding my comments above (damn, this is a complex issue...) I am glad I went to public school and learned that some people are smart, some people are not, some people are dicks, some people you should avoid, some people are pretty friggin' cool, etc... but, I guess if I was a part of a homeschool group....

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

< Snipping post reeking of condescension and arrogance, while failing to address the point>

lol. I noticed you failed to address the POINT, which was the poster making the ludicrous claim about VIOLENCE in those who have not had pre-school or daycare. That would included homeschool kids so naturally I took offense with this outrageous statement:

They spend many weeks learning that shoving is not an acceptable way to resolve conflicts.

Still waiting on anyone to submit evidence for such a ludicrous claim.

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I understand your sentiment, but like it or not, your children must learn to deal with the products of the public school system.

Really?! Incredible! I never considered such a thing.

I am glad I went to public school and learned that some people are smart, some people are not, some people are dicks, some people you should avoid, some people are pretty friggin' cool, etc... but, I guess if I was a part of a homeschool group....

You have not learned to make a coherent statement yet, so by all means tell me what you are trying to say here, because it sounds pretty stupid so far.

It takes public school to know some people are smart and some are not? Or that some people should be avoided? lol. Please, make a complete statement here that has something to do with public schools doing something that a homeschooler is not capable of. One thing we have already done is tour the closest public school during classes.

We also bring our kids to the school playground when there are lots of other kids there. You are obviously working with a false premise that homeschool kids do not get social interaction, which is completely wrong. What they get is us deciding what those interactions are going to be, and us being there to supervise.

 

[Minoosh]

Still waiting on anyone to submit evidence for such a ludicrous claim.

I took your post to task because I preferred to remain on the topic of what kind of standards we can reach in public school.

You went from a poster saying "kids at school for the first time need to be taught not to shove" (roughly) to figuring you had proved the poster was saying "Home-school parents are violent."

Now you want evidence of a "ludicrous claim" but I can't tell which claim you're talking about: What the poster said, or what you pretend the poster said.

Possibly you can't tell the difference.

 

[Minoosh]

You have not learned to make a coherent statement yet, so by all means tell me what you are trying to say here, because it sounds pretty stupid so far.

Is there any way you could be persuaded to address the argument, not the arguer?

Eh, probably not.

 

[Dancing David]

lol. I noticed you failed to address the POINT, which was the poster making the ludicrous claim about VIOLENCE in those who have not had pre-school or daycare. That would included homeschool kids so naturally I took offense with this outrageous statement:



Still waiting on anyone to submit evidence for such a ludicrous claim.

Wow, way to go addressing my post out of context.

My experience is not with home schooled kids and you just imagined I meant you.

Way to go, no offense was intended.

 

[Dancing David]

So homeschool kids are violent and it takes weeks to train them that violence is not acceptable. lol. Since parents are the primary role models for children, we can conclude that homeschool parents are violent.

Since you've made such a fantastical claim about violence in kids that have not been to pre-school or day care do you mind providing some evidence about this? Golly, this is such a grave accusation that there ought to be scads of peer reviewed publications on it...

yeah, Brainster - if this is all so straightforward then why is it that a number of well-educated adults can't figure it out?

Economy of effort is really important to us in both academics and the physical education of our kids.

Wow, that isn't what i said at all but please ride you horse around all you want. I mean really I supposed I paint with such broad brushes you assumed I meant you?

There are many home day cares that are basically rules free and that is what I meant, but please take umbrage at whatever you want.

 

[Dancing David]

Alaska Bush Pilot,

You sure made up a bunch of crap didn't you?

" pre school or structured day care"

What do you think structured means while you are galloping around on your Horse of Indignation, could you perhaps consider that 'structured' has many meanings and that I never stated home school parents were violent? Structure occurs on many levels of the social exchange normative behavior of politeness is a structure...etc, taking turns, waiting in line, not speaking out of turn when someone else is answering a question. these are all 'structure'

Most home school situations are highly structured, some less so. Sheesh.

seriously do you have to look for stuff to be offended by?

I seriously meant no offense to you or home schooling in any way.

Structure = expectations, and I have dealt with many a kindergarten students who has been in an in home day care with no expectations, they are used to shoving and wrestling as way of dealing with others, sometimes they call people names and swear. Especially those whose older siblings have taught them 'don't be a punk'. I have seen kindergartners 'front' and threaten others, as well as throw punches, why? because that is what they were allowed to do with no consequences.

Now I wonder exactly how many home schools are like that?

Hmm?

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

First this:

I seriously meant no offense to you or home schooling in any way.

Thank you.

Now this:

Most home school situations are highly structured, some less so. Sheesh.

What kind of background do you have in homeschool education to make sweeping statements about them? A sincere question.

Structure = expectations, and I have dealt with many a kindergarten students who has been in an in home day care with no expectations, they are used to shoving and wrestling as way of dealing with others, sometimes they call people names and swear. Especially those whose older siblings have taught them 'don't be a punk'. I have seen kindergartners 'front' and threaten others, as well as throw punches, why? because that is what they were allowed to do with no consequences.

That's why we don't like the kids from the public schools. The verbal abuse/bullying is worse than the physical abuse. While a professor for two decades I saw the results of all three - public schools, homeschool (very big up here), and the religious schools. The comportment and maturity of the public school kids was the worst. While professing, I coached five straight state high school wrestling championship teams and spent quite a bit of time interacting with the teachers and the kids. I did middle school programs over the years too, and since I was an elected member of the local government funding the schools I also interacted with school board members directly. Some of us ran our campaigns in tandem.

This background left me increasingly appalled and ultimately convinced of the necessity of home schooling because the system is just too large and broken for us as parents to do anything about. The irony in my experience is that the public school parents are on average much less informed than the homeschool parents, who simply leave things up to the system, but who are also quick to turn around and act like home school parents are the village idiots, not even realizing interaction with other people is a necessity.

lol. minoosh - a very feeble attempt at evasion and diversion. The poster above specifically brought up the social education, as did another poster, and boy do we get this in spades from people who are reacting to the fact we home school.

They seem to know that the academic performance is higher for the home school kids, so this is actually the first thing out of their mouths - and it's the same kind of absurd stuff Mr. Purple uttered as if we didn't have any idea that socialization or interaction with public school kids was something to think about. It is generally one of the highest things on the list for homeschoolers.

The socialization has two components, one of which is interaction with their peers and the other is the way in which they are managed by the staff and administration. We do not like either.

When people speak with our four year old they are amazed that he seems like a small adult instead of a whining child.

Exactly.

 

[Dancing David]

First this:



Thank you.

Now this:



What kind of background do you have in homeschool education to make sweeping statements about them? A sincere question.

Well, lets see, I was homeschooled for many years, while living in Mexico.
I have acquaintances (3), friends (2) and coworkers (3) who have home schooled their children.

That's why we don't like the kids from the public schools. The verbal abuse/bullying is worse than the physical abuse. While a professor for two decades I saw the results of all three - public schools, homeschool (very big up here), and the religious schools. The comportment and maturity of the public school kids was the worst.

it depends, my experience was mixed, depending on where we lived. It was not so good here(71-76).

In our district currently however there is no more 'blind eye' towards aggressive behavior.

While professing, I coached five straight state high school wrestling championship teams and spent quite a bit of time interacting with the teachers and the kids. I did middle school programs over the years too, and since I was an elected member of the local government funding the schools I also interacted with school board members directly. Some of us ran our campaigns in tandem.

This background left me increasingly appalled and ultimately convinced of the necessity of home schooling because the system is just too large and broken for us as parents to do anything about.

Our system is seeking to change things, with various levels of success. The bigger issue is always what happens away from school.

The irony in my experience is that the public school parents are on average much less informed than the homeschool parents, who simply leave things up to the system, but who are also quick to turn around and act like home school parents are the village idiots, not even realizing interaction with other people is a necessity.

More generalization, want scorn and derision, work in a public school.