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Dear Hans

Thanks for your analysis. I will study the power point presentation, once again, in the light of your observations and come back.

Murthy


Hans' analysis was actually of the published paper, not the PowerPoint presentation.

Hans, I salute you. I chose not to read it in deatil because it acknowledged up front that it contained nothing but speculation, but thank you for your analysis.

I had a closer look at the PowerPoint slides, at least the part following the summary of the published paper, which did contain some experimental data. I concur with JJM in finding it very much wanting in numerous ways.

Sigh. :nope:

Rolfe.
 
Try again.

Page 2 - Structured Water Pseudoscience and Quackery - well, I guess it's relevant.

Page 3 - Masaru Emoto's nonsense about ice crystals; CSIRO's department of Land and Water

Page 4 - Department of Environment and Water Resources; Building a structure to support a cup of water (out of straws, pipe cleaners, rubber bands, paper clips and toothpicks!); the economics of water supply; and "Mentally Influencing the Structure of Water".

By page 5, only 4 of the links were actually related to the subject.

The search is rubbish; what this proves is that whatever Roy was trying to establish with his search was not, in fact, established.

sorry, try again. none of the wierd citations on your list were on my list. which is certainly relevant to an intellectually stimulating inquiry into the merits of googling for research purposes, but i continue to think it better to examine the way roy used his data, than whether he used the quotation marks ... or missed the comma ... i mean, you did miss the comma.

right?

does it matter?

...right.... it doesn't.
 
hans said: No, that happens to be your private strawman. You have, elsewhere, beaten it to and beyond death, but that doesn't change the fact that it is your fabrication: Skeptics don't claim anything about future developements, we just observe that current physics fail to support homeopathy.

Hans


you in fact claim that plausibility of future discoveries that would support homeopathy are vanishingly improbable.
 
sorry, try again. none of the wierd citations on your list were on my list.
If you do the invalid search without the quotes - as Professor Roy did - then they are there.
which is certainly relevant to an intellectually stimulating inquiry into the merits of googling for research purposes, but i continue to think it better to examine the way roy used his data, than whether he used the quotation marks ... or missed the comma ... i mean, you did miss the comma.
You seem upset about that comma. Please try to relax.

Now, do you agree that (a) Professor Roy's claims about Google searches are meaningless, (b) he got it wrong anyway, and (c) you also got it wrong?

Yes. Fine. Subject closed.

Now, while you were conferring with the Chicago Manual of Style, both the paper and the presentation were completely dissected by Hans and Rolfe. Any comments? I also linked to a paper demonstrating that water does not form any of the structures that Professor Roy suggests. Any comments on that?
 
If you do the invalid search without the quotes - as Professor Roy did - then they are there.no, sorry, you are wrong. i did the search all ways. your citations did not come up. try again.

You seem upset about that comma. Please try to relax.nice try. but your continued perseveration on the errors in roy's googling technique have derailed this thread - why not just give it up?

Now, do you agree that (a) Professor Roy's claims about Google searches are meaningless, (b) he got it wrong anyway,i have no strong feelings about google searches, and have never claimed that this "methodology" was roy's strong suit, so, once again, please just give it up and (c) you also got it wrong? not at all. your search returned different results than did my search. feel free to spend all the energy you want to, trying to figure it out.

Yes. Fine. Subject closed.very good - you are doing the best impersonation of a bad skeptic i've seen since joining this thread - happily, most of the discussion, including hans' and rolfe's, have been exemplary.

Now, while you were conferring with the Chicago Manual of Style,ahh, so your sympatico with rolfe stops with expectations for literacy? very good. give it up, ok? both the paper and the presentation were completely dissected by Hans and Rolfe. Any comments? I also linked to a paper demonstrating that water does not form any of the structures that Professor Roy suggests. Any comments on that? guess. after all, i suspect you know exactly what i am thinking. but, if you want to discuss matters, try being civil, sweetie. or ask hans. he will be able to tell you what i think.

this conversation closed.

bach (ahhh, it's good to be "back"):D
 
Well Hans, I admire your intestinal fortitude. When I got to this sentence in the introduction of that paper (p. 2):
These observations mimic the same phenomena known for generations in H2O’s close relative, SiO2.
I started laughing and couldn't read any further. I showed it to the chemist who shares my office and he ranted for minutes about the idiocy of that one sentence.
 
Just wondering if you really meant "bvw12" in the context of the whole Bach theme.

I mean, "Weinen, Klagen, Sorgen, Zagen" is just so appropriate in this context, isn't it? It would be such a pity to spoil it for the sake of a typo.

Rolfe.
:) i like that, rolfe, thank you. just reading the "weinen, klagen..." generates a tear ... as all of bach does.

and, yes, quite appropriate to context!

but, i confess that it is not a typo, but a little (very little) effort at making fun of the skeptical habit of adopting disguises (alternate screen names) when trolling ... ooops, i mean 'visiting' ;) ... our own websites. so, bvw12 was a little jab i adopted on my first visit to fabled randiland, my "real" name being, of course, bwv11 ... how's that for a disguise? :blush:

in any case, i also like Lobet Gott in seinen Reichen, in our present context, though otherwise i am not a religious man.:D

neil
 
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To the OP:
they are using the fact that two different structures exists in preceipitating Sol-gels as an example of water polymers?

This is just stupid. What they are showing is the difference between spinodal decomposition and Nucleation in a phase seperation process. To visualize this difference, look at the way oil and water seperate (nucleation) and look at the way miso soup seperates (spinodal decomposition). it has more to do with the gains in free energy and the interface between the two phases then some imaginary water polymer.

Water doesn't polymerize, it hydrogen bonds. These are not strong enough to claim "polymer".
 
Well Hans, I admire your intestinal fortitude. When I got to this sentence in the introduction of that paper (p. 2):
These observations mimic the same phenomena known for generations in H2O’s close relative, SiO2.

I started laughing and couldn't read any further. I showed it to the chemist who shares my office and he ranted for minutes about the idiocy of that one sentence.

It's much more fun to subsitute common names into that sentence:

These observations mimic the same phenomena known for generations in water's close relative, sand.
Yup, they are relatives. They both exist on a beach!
 
hans said: No, that happens to be your private strawman. You have, elsewhere, beaten it to and beyond death, but that doesn't change the fact that it is your fabrication: Skeptics don't claim anything about future developements, we just observe that current physics fail to support homeopathy.

Hans


you in fact claim that plausibility of future discoveries that would support homeopathy are vanishingly improbable.
No, that is how you insist on misinterpreting me. I could say "misunderstand", but I think you are too smart for that.

I have said that there is vanishing little room for a discovery that supports homeopathy within our present body of knowledge. Therefore, such a discovery would require rewriting of large parts of our text-books.

In other words, what I sayis that if homeopathy is right, then a lot of the things we presently know are wrong.

This is not just a question of some obscure mechanism that might presently hide within quantum mechanics or molecule clusters. It is a question of thousands of lab procedures, millions of test results that would be skewed if agitation of water or alcohol made the solvent take on any properties from a no longer present solute. It is a question of our understanding of pathology and pharmacology being fundamentally wrong. It is a question of our present, very comprehensive, knowledge of pathogens being completely worthless.

Hans
 
...the skeptical habit of adopting disguises (alternate screen names) when trolling ... ooops, i mean 'visiting' ;) ... our own websites.
Really? Trolling, eh? When?

Do you mean when we try to use the same names we have here but have the registration refused, and we then get IP-banned before we can even post?

Or is it after we register then just say nothing, but someone notices the "Randiland" username on the members list, and they have a major upset and demand the "spies" be banned?

Or is it after we register and are allowed post, but then get banned the first time we ask a relevant honest question?

Or perhaps it is all in your imagination? Because we don't even have to bother registering any more. On the homeopathic forums, they will rapidly accuse each other of all sorts of "skeptic" stuff and spying and whatever whenever any of THEM start asking honest questions! Have you seen nchpakistan.com these days? Only the nuttiest survive...
 
hans wrote: No, that is how you insist on misinterpreting me. I could say "misunderstand", but I think you are too smart for that.

I have said that there is vanishing little room for a discovery that supports homeopathy within our present body of knowledge. Therefore, such a discovery would require rewriting of large parts of our text-books.in other words, you are saying that the chances of such a discovery being made are vanishingly small-something you have explicitly agreed to in the past.

In other words, what I sayis that if homeopathy is right, then a lot of the things we presently know are wrong.

This is not just a question of some obscure mechanism that might presently hide within quantum mechanics or molecule clusters. It is a question of thousands of lab procedures, millions of test results that would be skewed if agitation of water or alcohol made the solvent take on any properties from a no longer present solute. It is a question of our understanding of pathology and pharmacology being fundamentally wrong. It is a question of our present, very comprehensive, knowledge of pathogens being completely worthless.right, you are saying it is enormously improbable that such discoveries will be made. i'm glad we agree.
 
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Yesterday, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Zep
An excellent starting point.

Now here's the next question: How do you propose to ensure that any proof you obtain is sufficiently robust as to be effectively unassailable? What is your criteria for "proof"?

neil replied: you like big questions, huh? ok - i have two standards:

1. comprehensiveness of the evidentiary record (which will differ depending on the type of evidence and the type of research), and

2. independent corroboration (not just replication, but also corroboration by independent means)


***
as for the trolling business, a single example: do you remember the time a group of you guys openly discussed your strategy to come over to hpathy and stuff the ballot boxes with negative votes on a poll? otherwise, luminaries such as catriona, manon thebus, fatman, zookeeper, and others with enormously vile mouths represent the worst of the skeptical community. by contrast, the present thread, for the most part, reflects the positive qualities that can adhere to disputation.

but the little remark i made was not made to offend - i hardly understand how anyone would take personally, as offensive, a remark that was made only to reference a limited number of individuals who's behavior was grossly inappropriate but who were so determined in their offensiveness as to dominate skeptical presence in our forums for at least a few years - and yes i agree, their behavior was certainly as objectionable as the behavior you yourself have observed at nch.

personally, i don't like participating in exchanges with homeopaths who's main disputational method is insult, and though you may be surprised to learn that some skeptics can also be habitually insulting, to me such people are a fact of life that most human communities have to cope with.

being a gentle soul, wouldn't you agree?

neil
 
.in other words, you are saying that the chances of such a discovery being made are vanishingly small-something you have explicitly agreed to in the past.
*snip*.right, you are saying it is enormously improbable that such discoveries will be made. i'm glad we agree.

OK, I looked back at your post here, and you actually talked about probabilities in this case, so fine, I concede the point. That so many parts of the past century of scientific work is wrong is very (or insert your own adjective, within reason) improbable.

What you have said earlier is that I/we claim to know what future discoveries can and cannot bring, but let's not revive that.

Hans
 
***
as for the trolling business, a single example: do you remember the time a group of you guys openly discussed your strategy to come over to hpathy and stuff the ballot boxes with negative votes on a poll? otherwise, luminaries such as catriona, manon thebus, fatman, zookeeper, and others with enormously vile mouths represent the worst of the skeptical community. by contrast, the present thread, for the most part, reflects the positive qualities that can adhere to disputation.

On the trolling issue, allow me to point out that except for a short period at otherhealth (which was revoked and probably due to certain rabid members of the administration), and the ill-fated Pakistani NCH forum which banned all known skeptics, I have been free to post in homeopathic forums for years. I have seen moderator abuse, but I have not been banned.

That said, Neil's list of offenders surprises me a bit. Apart from being ancient (I can't even remember manon thebus), I dont seem to remember any of them being particularly vile (but sometimes somewhat direct). Catriona, for instance, struck me as at least as polite as myself, but I could be wrong. Do you happen to have any examples of Catriona's "vile mouth"?

Hans
 
Could you do something for us all, please: Learn to use the Quote function, and use it properly. Thank you.

as for the trolling business, a single example: do you remember the time a group of you guys openly discussed your strategy to come over to hpathy and stuff the ballot boxes with negative votes on a poll? otherwise, luminaries such as catriona, manon thebus, fatman, zookeeper, and others with enormously vile mouths represent the worst of the skeptical community. by contrast, the present thread, for the most part, reflects the positive qualities that can adhere to disputation.
OK, an answer in two parts.

1) No, I don't remember that incident at all. It must have been so far in the past and so unimportant that it really has stayed in the forefront of my mind...not. However can you pick which one was me? It will be very difficult for you! ;)

2) "Vile mouths"? Care to provide an example of this? PS. We do rather like to see evidence here, so if you wouldn't mind...

but the little remark i made was not made to offend - i hardly understand how anyone would take personally, as offensive, a remark that was made only to reference a limited number of individuals who's behavior was grossly inappropriate but who were so determined in their offensiveness as to dominate skeptical presence in our forums for at least a few years - and yes i agree, their behavior was certainly as objectionable as the behavior you yourself have observed at nch.
I'm not offended in the slightest. I don't know what gave you that idea. It's just that my usually impeccable memory has no recollection of any such activity taking place.

personally, i don't like participating in exchanges with homeopaths who's main disputational method is insult, and though you may be surprised to learn that some skeptics can also be habitually insulting, to me such people are a fact of life that most human communities have to cope with.

being a gentle soul, wouldn't you agree?

neil
Certainly I agree. Skeptics DO tend to ask questions that force others to search within themselves, and oftentimes these people don't like what they are forced to see clearly. Which is disturbing for their little fantasies, and so they have to blame SOMEBODY, so they turn on the skeptic who asked the question - they are an easy target. So of course they will call skeptics habitually insulting when all they are really is inquiring minds.

Manners are usually not the issue at all - more often than not the skeptics have been VERY polite, not even using immoderate language or "the wrong words" or mentioning taboo subjects. But when the fantasies come crashing down, someone has to get the blame, even if the reason is totally made up.

It's all about towering pride built on total ignorance, usually. You have met Joe Delivera, haven't you. ;)
 
OK, an answer in two parts.

1) No, I don't remember that incident at all. It must have been so far in the past and so unimportant that it really has stayed in the forefront of my mind...not. However can you pick which one was me? It will be very difficult for you! ;) in itself, an unimportant example, but handy because it stands out as so ludicrous in and of itself. about 4 years ago, i would guess.

2) "Vile mouths"? Care to provide an example of this? PS. We do rather like to see evidence here, so if you wouldn't mind... look up mousey, manon thebus, prester somebody, zookeeper, over at hpathy. personally, i don't include them in my resources files, and in fact have for some time now enjoyed blocking their access to our forums.

I'm not offended in the slightest. I don't know what gave you that idea. It's just that my usually impeccable memory has no recollection of any such activity taking place. OK.:-)

Certainly I agree. Skeptics DO tend to ask questions that force others to search within themselves,ahh, now i understand. but, you see, the problem is that the present thread, for the most part, is an excellent example of an excellent discussion. sometimes a little over the top, but nothing that i would describe as vile. and oftentimes these people don't like what they are forced to see clearly.really? now, my usually impeccable memory has not recollection of that sort of behavior going on. hmmm, d'ya think i, or perchance even vous, might be influenced in our recollections by bias? if you answer that, please address both sides, as i am interested in all the evidence, not merely that which flatters my side. Which is disturbing for their little fantasies, and so they have to blame SOMEBODY, so they turn on the skeptic who asked the question - they are an easy target. So of course they will call skeptics habitually insulting when all they are really is inquiring minds.

Manners are usually not the issue at all - more often than notindeed at least this is the case in the present thread. if, however, you want examples of blemishes on what you appear to perceive as the pristine complexion of the totality of the skeptical communities public deportment, as i suggested, visit hpathy and search for the above names. the skeptics have been VERY polite, not even using immoderate language or "the wrong words" or mentioning taboo subjects. But when the fantasies come crashing down, someone has to get the blame, even if the reason is totally made up.

It's all about towering pride built on total ignorance, usually.ahhh, so perceptive, so moderately couched, so well documented. you outperform yourself, don't you? You have met Joe Delivera, haven't you. actually, no. ;)
zep, pay attention: self-congratulatory rhetoric aside, human behavior is more complex that you seem to realize, and human communities more diverse in their habits than fit into one-sided little scenarios such as you have invented.

but the topic is worthwhile, at the least because it impinges on another topic of interest, namely, "bias and objectivity," terms you have doubtless heard of, and regarding which you give the impression of claiming pride of ownership.

sooo, were you one of them? have you ever been blocked from participating at hpathy?

neil
 
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zep, you asked a question, this is the third time i am posting my response:

post_old.gif
Yesterday, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Zep
An excellent starting point.

Now here's the next question: How do you propose to ensure that any proof you obtain is sufficiently robust as to be effectively unassailable? What is your criteria for "proof"?

neil replied: you like big questions, huh? ok - i have two standards:

1. comprehensiveness of the evidentiary record (which will differ depending on the type of evidence and the type of research), and

2. independent corroboration (not just replication, but also corroboration by independent means)
 

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