I've noticed that too. In a couple debates I've asked the other person if gay porn is ok then because there are no women involved. I saw one article by one of these 'womens lib' type who seems to be more anti-men than for equality. The article was bashing another article on an adult website catering to some unusual fettish. It made no difference that the site was founded by a women, who was simply sharing her own fantasies and interests (on a free site) that ended up growing into a free and a pay site that catered to people with similar interests. The writer blasted the site as catering to men and objectifying women. Guess women are not allowed to have sexual interestes then.Cinorjer said:
Comic books = pornography?
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Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
Although feminists constantly deride pornography as degrading to women, they have little to say about the large body of stuff that degrades men.
Especially in the BDSM line, the male-as-submissive and domininant-female image is immensely popular.
Especially in the BDSM line, the male-as-submissive and domininant-female image is immensely popular.
To be fair, there are at least two major camps within the feminist literature on porn--one rabidly anti-porn, the other just as rabidly pro-"women can choose to watch, act in, or produce porn just as freely as men" (If someone can get me a shorter title, I'll edit). Both have extensive literatures behind their views.Marc said:
Cleopatra, the studies you list are 20 years old; they really represent the beginning of the search. They are cited as gospel in some camps; reviled and dismissed in others. Their replication has been spotty, but I'll have to wait till I can get to my office to say more on that. Suffice it to say that there is plenty of ammunition for the lawyers on both sides at this point.
Okay, sorry I have been gone a few days. I had to get some space between me and the boards. Every time I thought about posting I felt like I was doing homework in my hardest class.
Anyway, I have found that if you go to Google and enter the question, “Does pornography cause violent behavior?” You’ll find a lot of material on the matter. These days the answer seems to be, “We don’t know.” On the one hand, the fact that pornography is found to be big with sex offenders does seem compelling and significant. On the other hand, the studies that have been done which, we have been told by the US government, indicate that porn is a cause of rape have a number of problems. Also, the studies, as data, have been widely misused by entities such as the Meese committee.
For example, one of the studies relies on the testimony of convicted sex offenders. "When I seen that movie, it was like somebody lit a fuse.... I just went for it, went out and raped”, said one perpetrator. Obviously such a statement could be self serving yet the study does not take note of that. I do not trust a researcher who ignores such obvious bias in an interview subject.
Also, as has been stipulated previously, the general population’s violent or nonviolent responses to pornography can not be assessed.
As far as the misuses of data are concerned, consider the following.
The individuals who use studies to illustrate that porn is linked to violence are guilty of:
• making no distinction between violent and nonviolent sexual stimuli;
• not distinguishing between short-term versus long-term effects of such stimuli;
• ignoring the limits of laboratory studies, which cannot test for violent behavior outside of the laboratory.
The above is according to Julie A. Allison and Lawrence S. Wrightsman who performed a meta-analysis of several key studies on perpetrators of rape and more generalized samples of sexually aggressive men.
The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) studied 41 incarcerated offenders guilty of performing between 10 and 78 rapes each. The sample most closely resembles the classic stereotype of the rapist as a predatory stranger and home invader. The results cannot, therefore, be generalized to the majority of rapists. Involvement in the armed forces is artificially inflated by the existence of a draft system in effect during the Vietnam War era.
The results of the analysis are that more research is needed to accurately determine what, if any, is the connection between porn and violence.
What strikes me is that I have noted a number of conclusions which reveal more about the researchers than the subjects, in my opinion. For instance, a researcher noted that men with a strongly masculine streak would, after viewing a pornographic movie, sit closer to female researchers during the questioning phase and generally seemed more flirtatious. This led the researcher to conclude that viewing porn caused men to be more sexist toward women. I do not think that is indicated at all. I do not view flirtatious men as sexist. If researchers do not put checks and balances on their own biases, how can they be trusted?
Also, studies show that violent nonsexual material(films, images) causes men to be more violent. If one concludes that violent porn increases violent tendencies, how can one know if it is the sexual content or the violent content that spurs violence? Questions like this are why I will not let up on the correlation/causation issue.
Glory
Article is available at http://www.crime.smartlibrary.org/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=1721
Anyway, I have found that if you go to Google and enter the question, “Does pornography cause violent behavior?” You’ll find a lot of material on the matter. These days the answer seems to be, “We don’t know.” On the one hand, the fact that pornography is found to be big with sex offenders does seem compelling and significant. On the other hand, the studies that have been done which, we have been told by the US government, indicate that porn is a cause of rape have a number of problems. Also, the studies, as data, have been widely misused by entities such as the Meese committee.
For example, one of the studies relies on the testimony of convicted sex offenders. "When I seen that movie, it was like somebody lit a fuse.... I just went for it, went out and raped”, said one perpetrator. Obviously such a statement could be self serving yet the study does not take note of that. I do not trust a researcher who ignores such obvious bias in an interview subject.
Also, as has been stipulated previously, the general population’s violent or nonviolent responses to pornography can not be assessed.
As far as the misuses of data are concerned, consider the following.
The individuals who use studies to illustrate that porn is linked to violence are guilty of:
• making no distinction between violent and nonviolent sexual stimuli;
• not distinguishing between short-term versus long-term effects of such stimuli;
• ignoring the limits of laboratory studies, which cannot test for violent behavior outside of the laboratory.
The above is according to Julie A. Allison and Lawrence S. Wrightsman who performed a meta-analysis of several key studies on perpetrators of rape and more generalized samples of sexually aggressive men.
The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) studied 41 incarcerated offenders guilty of performing between 10 and 78 rapes each. The sample most closely resembles the classic stereotype of the rapist as a predatory stranger and home invader. The results cannot, therefore, be generalized to the majority of rapists. Involvement in the armed forces is artificially inflated by the existence of a draft system in effect during the Vietnam War era.
The results of the analysis are that more research is needed to accurately determine what, if any, is the connection between porn and violence.
What strikes me is that I have noted a number of conclusions which reveal more about the researchers than the subjects, in my opinion. For instance, a researcher noted that men with a strongly masculine streak would, after viewing a pornographic movie, sit closer to female researchers during the questioning phase and generally seemed more flirtatious. This led the researcher to conclude that viewing porn caused men to be more sexist toward women. I do not think that is indicated at all. I do not view flirtatious men as sexist. If researchers do not put checks and balances on their own biases, how can they be trusted?
Also, studies show that violent nonsexual material(films, images) causes men to be more violent. If one concludes that violent porn increases violent tendencies, how can one know if it is the sexual content or the violent content that spurs violence? Questions like this are why I will not let up on the correlation/causation issue.
Glory
Article is available at http://www.crime.smartlibrary.org/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=1721
For instance, a researcher noted that men with a strongly masculine streak would, after viewing a pornographic movie, sit closer to female researchers during the questioning phase and generally seemed more flirtatious. This led the researcher to conclude that viewing porn caused men to be more sexist toward women.
A "strongly masculine streak" rated on what scale? I know a professional wrestler who is by any external definition the most masculine person you've ever met. Now, any normal person without a political agenda would look at these results and say "I conclude that, for men who enjoy that sort of thing, looking at pornography makes them horny!" Well, duh!
But of course in the case that started this thread, it was all artwork, not photographs. So you can't even claim women were degraded in the production of the work.
On a related note, Neil Gaiman's Endless Nights graphic novel (read: comic book in hard cover) is finally out, and several of the stories are definitely pornographic. In particular, the story about Desire is drawn by Milo Manara and is fantastic! Full of naked women, showing people having sex, even a witch thrown in there to tick off the Fundies, yet it's a wonderful story of desire and what happens when all your desires are fulfilled. Yet, this story would be labeled obscene and result in conviction by Bible Belt communities.
A "strongly masculine streak" rated on what scale? I know a professional wrestler who is by any external definition the most masculine person you've ever met. Now, any normal person without a political agenda would look at these results and say "I conclude that, for men who enjoy that sort of thing, looking at pornography makes them horny!" Well, duh!
But of course in the case that started this thread, it was all artwork, not photographs. So you can't even claim women were degraded in the production of the work.
On a related note, Neil Gaiman's Endless Nights graphic novel (read: comic book in hard cover) is finally out, and several of the stories are definitely pornographic. In particular, the story about Desire is drawn by Milo Manara and is fantastic! Full of naked women, showing people having sex, even a witch thrown in there to tick off the Fundies, yet it's a wonderful story of desire and what happens when all your desires are fulfilled. Yet, this story would be labeled obscene and result in conviction by Bible Belt communities.
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
Think along the following lines:
1. Define pornography. As I pointed out above, it can vary widely. Even the courts have had considerable difficulty.
2. What percentage of the general populace "uses" pornagraphy, and at what frequency or level.
3. What percentage of "users" are sex criminals of various sorts?
4. What percentage of "non-users" are sex criminals?
5. How do the two figures ( non-user percentages and user percentages) compare?
6. Is there a proven causal factor? Do folks with various sexual proclivities find themselves drawn to various kinds of porn, or is it the "using" of porn that inspires the behaviour?
Again, researchers in the field maintain that our sexual personas, complete with whatever oddments we're likely to exhibit, are fully formed at a very early age, long before any exposure to porn would even be recognized as such.
1. Define pornography. As I pointed out above, it can vary widely. Even the courts have had considerable difficulty.
2. What percentage of the general populace "uses" pornagraphy, and at what frequency or level.
3. What percentage of "users" are sex criminals of various sorts?
4. What percentage of "non-users" are sex criminals?
5. How do the two figures ( non-user percentages and user percentages) compare?
6. Is there a proven causal factor? Do folks with various sexual proclivities find themselves drawn to various kinds of porn, or is it the "using" of porn that inspires the behaviour?
Again, researchers in the field maintain that our sexual personas, complete with whatever oddments we're likely to exhibit, are fully formed at a very early age, long before any exposure to porn would even be recognized as such.