Look Cleopatra, I'd just encourage you to think as critically as possible about the statements you made in your earlier post, especially in light of what Glory has said. Don't reply immediately, spend some time. Consider, how, for example, rape statistics vary from country to country, and see if you can find a correlation with a liberal attitude to pornography. For me, it's an interesting observation that countries that have what I'd consider to be an extremely backward attitude to women, also ban pornography outright. This may be misleading I'm not sure, but I think it's food for thought.
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Comic books = pornography?
- Thread starter Cinorjer
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- cbldf comic books pornography
Glory said:
I have read plent of studies. I have also read studies which contradict them.
Yes, I offered up anecdotes. That is all we have. Anecdotes. These anecdotes illustrate the fact tha using porn does not make one into a predator. For every molester who uses porn there is a nonmolester who uses it. For every rapist who uses porn, there is a nonrapist who uses it. Blaming porn is convenient but ultimately not supportable. We will have to look elsewhere for the cause of these problems.
Glory
Can you mention ONE study according to which : " For every molester who uses porn there is a nonmolester who uses it. "
Lucy, Your Highness, I am using sources from your county because USA is the leading country in such surveys.
Cleopatra said:I am terribly sorry Lucy I didn't mean to offend you by calling you an American.
That doesn't bother me. I don't mind being called an American, particularly. It's just a possible indication that you have to slow down a bit, and check your facts and figures. In any case, I apologize for my uncharitable remarks earlier. I'm very capricious.
Cleopatra said:
First of all I am not pro-prohibition of porn and second I was having in mind the Report of the Attorney General coming from the U.S Department of Justice, do you want a complete reference?
Yes, especially since the AG is a fundie and this administration has a history if ignoring reports that don't agree with preconcieved notions, possibly falsifying others or at least picking ones that support thier position.
Lucy:
If you have read my posts, you'd realize that I am NOT against pornography.
I do not want it banned or prohibited or anything.
BUT we cannot dismiss just like that the fact that there are surveys that relate pornography to violence.
I didn't suggest you to embrace these surveys, I just said that they exist.
And BTW since you are so definite about your opinions do you know why we will never have a definite answer about this issue?Have you ever heard of the methodological problems that are related to those surveys, I am asking since you advised me to apply some critical thinking.
You are capricius... Why?
Why do you ask me to tolerate your caprices?
Please, spare me the BS, ok?
edited to change a my to me
If you have read my posts, you'd realize that I am NOT against pornography.
I do not want it banned or prohibited or anything.
BUT we cannot dismiss just like that the fact that there are surveys that relate pornography to violence.
I didn't suggest you to embrace these surveys, I just said that they exist.
And BTW since you are so definite about your opinions do you know why we will never have a definite answer about this issue?Have you ever heard of the methodological problems that are related to those surveys, I am asking since you advised me to apply some critical thinking.
You are capricius... Why?
Why do you ask me to tolerate your caprices?
Please, spare me the BS, ok?
edited to change a my to me
Marc said:
Yes, especially since the AG is a fundie and this administration has a history if ignoring reports that don't agree with preconcieved notions, possibly falsifying others or at least picking ones that support thier position.
These are ridiculous things. Do you know what makes your country a leading power in the scientific research of all sorts?
It's ability to get over politics. We are talking about a serious thing here.
Haven't you ever heard that pornography is a gross industry that is related to child prostitution and drugs?
Try the issue 112 of the Reports of the Attorney General but you don't need to go that far.
I mentioned once in Paltalk to some members of JREF that USA is lthe eading country in producing pornographic material and they laughted at me until Mr. Skinny did a google search and they apologized afterwards.
Jesus people! I am pro freedom of expression myself but this doesn't mean that I am willing to sugar coat some facts.
Cleoptara,
The only thing I am certain about was that your first post lacked critical thinking.
You also sounded as though you were taking these surveys you refer to at face value, and you are now asking me to consider their 'methodological problems'.
The only thing I am certain about was that your first post lacked critical thinking.
You also sounded as though you were taking these surveys you refer to at face value, and you are now asking me to consider their 'methodological problems'.
Aparently you are not that familiar with american government. Yes we have great scientific research, but don't expect it to have much influence on government. Remember, the CIA had a secret Psychics project for a while, the National Institute of Health has been saddled with an office that does nothing but promote alternative medicines. The current administration is trying to fight AIDS with an abstinance only agenda, has even forced health agencies to remove information on the benefits of condom use from their websites, and stopped funding to an inernational organization that helps women because of accusation that it supports forced abortions in China, accusations that the government admits that it can't back up. Then you can get into the whole Iraq thing as to the differences of what the government says and what they have actual evidence for.Cleopatra said:These are ridiculous things. Do you know what makes your country a leading power in the scientific research of all sorts?
It's ability to get over politics. We are talking about a serious thing here.
and as others have stated, there is just as much research showing no connection between porn and the horrors you cite.
[qb]Haven't you ever heard that pornography is a gross industry that is related to child prostitution and drugs?[/qb]
Yes, usually from religious groups that are against porn to begin with.
and I'm not surprised. Just as the US is a leading country in producing all kinds of movies and entertainment. That however does not demonstrate any conection between all porn and organized crime, drugs, and child prostitution.[qb]I mentioned once in Paltalk to some members of JREF that USA is lthe eading country in producing pornographic material and they laughted at me until Mr. Skinny did a google search and they apologized afterwards. [/B]
Your statements sound like someone who sees 3 card montey players who cheat people and deal drugs on the side, then extrapolate from there that all casinos are therefor criminal organizations that deal in drugs.
The only thing that you are certain Lucy is that I am one of the weakest minds in this forum.
What do you call critical thinking? The fact that you turn your personal tastes into facts?
I enjoy pornography too, so? Does this makes it harmless?
No I do not take the surveys at face value because I know the chief methodological problem that such surveys put. And I know it not because I am a genious but because I have read what a leading scientist in this field has said.
Now open your eyes Lucy it's not the weak mind that is speaking but James Check of the Dept of Justice of Canada in the " Effects of violent and non-violent pornography" "
" The argument that there atr not enough studies that show a connection between pornography and violent crime is a smoke-screen. Those who promote this stance well know that such research will never be done. It would require a sampling of much more than a thousand males, exposed to pornography throught puberty and adolescence, while the other group is totally isolated from its influence in all its forms and varying degrees. each group would then have to be monitored throught the commission of violent crimes or not. In spite of the lack of such researches , thought, the FBI's own statistics who that p.is found at 80% of the scenes of violent sex crimes, or in the homes or perpetrators".
What do you call critical thinking? The fact that you turn your personal tastes into facts?
I enjoy pornography too, so? Does this makes it harmless?
No I do not take the surveys at face value because I know the chief methodological problem that such surveys put. And I know it not because I am a genious but because I have read what a leading scientist in this field has said.
Now open your eyes Lucy it's not the weak mind that is speaking but James Check of the Dept of Justice of Canada in the " Effects of violent and non-violent pornography" "
" The argument that there atr not enough studies that show a connection between pornography and violent crime is a smoke-screen. Those who promote this stance well know that such research will never be done. It would require a sampling of much more than a thousand males, exposed to pornography throught puberty and adolescence, while the other group is totally isolated from its influence in all its forms and varying degrees. each group would then have to be monitored throught the commission of violent crimes or not. In spite of the lack of such researches , thought, the FBI's own statistics who that p.is found at 80% of the scenes of violent sex crimes, or in the homes or perpetrators".
Marc said:
Aparently you are not that familiar with american government. Yes we have great scientific research, but don't expect it to have much influence on government. Remember, the CIA had a secret Psychics project for a while, the National Institute of Health has been saddled with an office that does nothing but promote alternative medicines. The current administration is trying to fight AIDS with an abstinance only agenda, has even forced health agencies to remove information on the benefits of condom use from their websites, and stopped funding to an inernational organization that helps women because of accusation that it supports forced abortions in China, accusations that the government admits that it can't back up. Then you can get into the whole Iraq thing as to the differences of what the government says and what they have actual evidence for.
Interesting but it doesn't address the topic and certainly you don't refute the arguments.
and as others have stated, there is just as much research showing no connection between porn and the horrors you cite.
As others, you forgot to mention one of these surveys.
Yes, usually from religious groups that are against porn to begin with.
FBI and Interpol are not religious groups.
and I'm not surprised. Just as the US is a leading country in producing all kinds of movies and entertainment. That however does not demonstrate any conection between all porn and organized crime, drugs, and child prostitution.
You will have to show me that, unless you want me to take your statistics at face value and reject Interpol's and FBI's data.
Your statements sound like someone who sees 3 card montey players who cheat people and deal drugs on the side, then extrapolate from there that all casinos are therefor criminal organizations that deal in drugs.
Simplistic but I am willing to see my fault. You will have to persuade me with facts that Interpol, FBI and the US Dept of Justice are lying.
Cleopatra said:
These are ridiculous things. Do you know what makes your country a leading power in the scientific research of all sorts?
It's ability to get over politics. We are talking about a serious thing here.
Not really. It's a large amount of money, and the ability to attract scientific talent from all over the world. The vast majority of scientific output is not controversial and has nothing directly to do with government.
I think Marc's comment is quite reasonable, and is not inconsistent with the scientific reputation of the US.
Haven't you ever heard that pornography is a gross industry that is related to child prostitution and drugs?
Actually, I haven't. Most pornography involves only consenting adults as far as I know. Drugs? That's an entirely separate issue.
I mentioned once in Paltalk to some members of JREF that USA is lthe eading country in producing pornographic material and they laughted at me until Mr. Skinny did a google search and they apologized afterwards.
Relevance? I can't imagine why Mr. Skinny, or anyone else, would be surprised.
A-ha! A correlation!Cleopatra said:In spite of the lack of such researches , thought, the FBI's own statistics who that p.is found at 80% of the scenes of violent sex crimes, or in the homes or perpetrators".
JamesM said:
A-ha! A correlation!
Do you dismiss it? I'd like to hear that because I do not have personal statistics on the matter and I have to rely on the data of FBI, Interpol and US Dept. of Justice.
Cleopatra said:
What do you call critical thinking? The fact that you turn your personal tastes into facts?
What are you talking about? My personal tastes? Facts?
Now open your eyes Lucy it's not the weak mind that is speaking but James Check of the Dept of Justice of Canada in the " Effects of violent and non-violent pornography" "
" The argument that there atr not enough studies that show a connection between pornography and violent crime is a smoke-screen. Those who promote this stance well know that such research will never be done. It would require a sampling of much more than a thousand males, exposed to pornography throught puberty and adolescence, while the other group is totally isolated from its influence in all its forms and varying degrees. each group would then have to be monitored throught the commission of violent crimes or not. In spite of the lack of such researches , thought, the FBI's own statistics who that p.is found at 80% of the scenes of violent sex crimes, or in the homes or perpetrators".
This is very poor Cleopatra. How much pornography would you expect to find in the homes of non-perpetrators? This point has already been made to you. Allow me to quote Glory thus,
"Lastly, lets not confuse correlation with causation. They are different and utterly independant phenomena."
It is very pertinent to the topic. The only evidence you have provided is mentioning some report from the AG. I have pointed out that a single report, especially from the current administraion, is not neccesarily credible. I, and Glory have also refuted the arguments by pointing out there are studies that directly refute the claims you made. It is you who are not refuting the other's argument, instead just continu making claims without backing it up.Cleopatra said:
Interesting but it doesn't address the topic and certainly you don't refute the arguments.
and what work of their directly links all porn to organized crime, drugs, and child prostitution? I'm sure it is possible to find a few agents that would agree, after all one person I know was invited to speak at a debate on if D&D leads to satanism and suicides. One of the debaters for the claim was an FBI agent.
FBI and Interpol are not religious groups.
and where is YOUR data that you seem to expect me to take at face value? You are the one making the claim that there is a connection here.You will have to show me that, unless you want me to take your statistics at face value and reject Interpol's and FBI's data.
Already supplied examples of how the US does lie and distort in order to promote an agenda. Not necesarily saying they are lying, but could be relying on heavily biased or misrepresented studies.Simplistic but I am willing to see my fault. You will have to persuade me with facts that Interpol, FBI and the US Dept of Justice are lying.
LucyR said:This is very poor Cleopatra. How much pornography would you expect to find in the homes of non-perpertrators? This point has already been made to you. Allow me to quote Glory thus,
Do you have a statistic that shows how much pornography one expects to find in homes of non-perpetrators?
As I said to James I do not have personal statistics and I have to rely on FBI, Interpol and US Dept of Justice.
Where do you rely to make your assumptions?
"Lastly, lets not confuse correlation with causation. They are different and utterly independant phenomena."
This statement is like Coca-Cola, it applies in every occassion.
Show me your statistics, please.
Cleopatra said:
Do you have a statistic that shows how much pornography one expects to find in homes of non-perpetrators?
No, I don't. That's the point I think.
As a correlation, no. But how do we differentiate between the two following cases:Cleopatra said:
Do you dismiss it?
1. Exposure to p. causes them to become perpetrators.
2. The tastes of the perpetrators causes them to have a liking for p, in the same way that one could argue that violent people like violent films without the films causing them to be violent.
It is impossible to infer cause and effect from a study of the sort you mention. One could do so from a randomised trial or one could obtain evidence for a causative mechanism from elsewhere, but the correlation itself, while it does not argue against case 1 above, does not prove it, as there are alternative scenarios that it would also be true for.