Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[catsmate]

In what aspect ? Fission gives them all they need. You could build smaller, cheaper and safer subs, but it would be no revolution, as the fission reactor was.

If a Rossi type device was real you could build high endurance boats as small and as cheap as current diesel electric models, it would be a significant change in naval warfare.
If such devices would directly produce electricity, without the turbines and other equipment needed to handle steam, such boats would combine the range and speed of nuclear subs with the silence and cheapness of diesel-electric ones.

 

[Craig B]

What, you think that just because somebody's in the military they can't be a fanboy? I suspect you've never served.

No I haven't. They got rid of conscription here before I reached the age for national service. But surely the military don't take it too well if they find out they've been stung. Don't they go back and blow the miscreant's brains out? They've got the technology for that!

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

But surely the military don't take it too well if they find out they've been stung. Don't they go back and blow the miscreant's brains out? They've got the technology for that!

You might think so, but the PR is terrible.

My point is that you can't make that kind of judgment about soldiers just because they're soldiers. Soldiers, like anybody else, can be complicated, and falling for a guy with a scam is hardly rendered impossible by intelligence.

 

[The Man]

No I haven't. They got rid of conscription here before I reached the age for national service. But surely the military don't take it too well if they find out they've been stung. Don't they go back and blow the miscreant's brains out? They've got the technology for that!

Yeah but they are still having trouble tracking them down using that new locator system they bought..

...the Sniffex http://www.propublica.org/article/sec-bomb-detector-bought-by-military-was-front-for-scam-717....

 

[maryyugo]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers. You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. ...

This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. ...

Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another. ...

Nonsense. Essen has demonstrated that he is GROSSLY incompetent to evaluate Rossi contraptions. First, he allowed Rossi to get away with passing off wet steam as dry steam. Essen used a relative humidity meter to measure this and it won't work for that purpose.

Second, Essen *never* asked, much less compelled, Rossi to conduct blank runs or electrically generated heat calibrations for his public demonstrations-- the ones which Essen found encouraging. To do so would have revealed that the measurement method was faulty, yielding way more indicated heat at the output than was present. This was most likely done with misplaced thermocouples.

Essen never complained on the October 2011 test of a so-called megawatt plant in which a diesel generator supplied all the power, the distinguished guests were kept sequestered in a room away from the demonstration, and nobody got to see how data were collected and analyzed or for that matter if such a thing even took place!

Essen is a clown operating in areas he knows nothing about and that's before we even get to examining the gear for deception. Essen found nothing to criticize in the current experiment despite Rossi providing the venue in his lab, using his mains power socket, and having his close and uncritical associate Levi furnishing inadequate and inappropriate instruments to measure the input power.

Nobody proved fraud maybe but it's very easy to show that both Defkalion and Rossi have lied repeatedly and flagrantly about who tested their gear, who they worked with, who was asked to certify it and what it was they were testing. Rossi associates himself with quacks and cranks who sell magnetic motors and generators in Germany and with a nut in Australia who sells what should be billion dollar distributorships for peanuts. I've reviewed all the old Defkalion lies on their now closed and deleted forum in the past and I won't repeat it here but it's a voluminous record of total crappola.

Be patient, you suggest? Why? It would take less than week for Rossi to resurrect one of his older, smaller, lower temperature and much easier to test ecats and for him to get it properly tested by a truly independent group. Why should any one have to wait for that? This is nonsense. Nobody with a technology like Rossi and Defkalion claim to have would behave in that manner unless they were stark raving insane.

 

[Mister Earl]

Nobody with a technology like Rossi and Defkalion claim to have would behave in that manner unless they were stark raving insane.

Or deliberate frauds, as in this case.

 

[Dancing David]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers. You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. Many on this board are the self-appointed final arbiters of what is possible and what is not possible and there is a mob mentality of attacking that which you do not understand and those that point out that you don't know what you don't know. Most amusing. You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons. A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1
This shows points and counterpoints. While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. A few of those were memorably ludicrous such as the 30kW of beamed microwave radiation that must have been powering an earlier version of the ECat. "Guiseppe, si sta facendo caldo qui." Caldo, indeed.
Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

I am saving this to post in a year pteridine, it will be just as likely you will be eating raw crow.

 

[Craig B]

I am saving this to post in a year pteridine, it will be just as likely you will be eating raw crow.

Rossi fanboys will never eat crow. They'll just keep saying, the jury's out; give the guy more time. And if Rossi suddenly disappears to South America with the money, they'll say, it's all a Big Oil or Islamicist or Camorra or Big Science or Pathoskep conspiracy.

 

[pteridine]

I am saving this to post in a year pteridine, it will be just as likely you will be eating raw crow.

If you wish, you may save it as an example of fine literature and a proper post.

The rush to judgment and premature condemnation by scientists and their sycophants on this board is unwarranted. Rossi travels his own path to exposition and development. The posters on this board are inconsequential to him and his process and they cannot dictate any terms or conditions. They find fault with whatever he does and how he does it. They have no evidence of fraud but say he must be scamming because he does not do what they wish him to do with respect to third party tests, open disclosure, academic studies, etc. They speak of evidence and rigor but don't hold themselves to that standard when claiming fraud. He thinks that there is a fusion reaction and that is also a basis for attack; no 511keV gamma so there must be fraud. Assuming that because his explanation is flawed that there can be no heat generated is also flawed. Not surprisingly, there are many theories of what is happening with Rossi's experiments and those of others. Possibly they are all incorrect. If this works and can be commercialized, it may be used long before all the details of a theory are worked out.

I have asked others to show evidence of fraud such as a wire capable of carrying the extra power [only 136 amperes at 220v for 30kW; a subtle 00 awg copper wire would work after derating for multistrand insulated] or any instruments that have been shown to have been corrupted. How about the 30 kW of microwave power, beamed into a room/oven filled with people [I had to put that one in there because it was so idiotic].

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

Patience.

 

[Craig B]

Patience.

See what I mean? They will never eat crow. Never, never will they give up.

 

[Mister Earl]

pteridine, if that nut actually had a useable product, he'd patent it. He'd patent it and specifically detail the mechanism. He would want that patent protection. Even if his engineering chops weren't up to snuff, he could license someone else to manufacture a better model for him. They couldn't "steal" it from him because of that patent protection.

So I gotta ask you, supposing for a moment that this thing is real (it isn't), why would he torpedo his own pet project?

His actions are not consistent with someone who has found something both useful and legitimate. An actual discovery would be patented with all information disclosed, to ensure the mechanism was likewise protected. An actual inventor would permit all and sundry to both test his device in any way they saw fit, and encourage others to build their own and replicate his results. Again, even if his engineering chops aren't up to snuff, there's plenty of other folks whose aforementioned chops are quite up to the task, and they'd confirm and verify his claims.

But his actions aren't consistent with an actual discovery. They are consistent with a con man. Testing only happens in methods he permits. These tests are done, not in any manner that proves nor disproves his claims, because confirmation isn't a goal and is not relevant. All he needs do is keep attention up enough about his proto-project, and he can use that to steal more money by lying to donors. He's in it for the small cash, because the big cash that comes with an actual product is not possible in this case.

The man is a thief. Short. Simple. Done.

You can dress it up any way you like. But actions speak far louder than words, and as noted above, the actions of this man show that it is all an intentional lie with the goal of getting money he does not deserve.

Pick a new hero. This one is not deserving.

 

[Mister Earl]

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

He is offering a device that delivers energy through a mechanism that is not possible. He has taken money with this promise, and spent that money. That is fraud.

 

[Aepervius]

Rossi fanboys will never eat crow. They'll just keep saying, the jury's out; give the guy more time. And if Rossi suddenly disappears to South America with the money, they'll say, it's all a Big Oil or Islamicist or Camorra or Big Science or Pathoskep conspiracy.

Some do recognize they were gullible and move on, away from further scam. In the last years I have known one.

However for the rest, 100% agreed on never eating crow. Remember the Steorn Guy ? The crushing majority of the "steorn's fan" never ate crow. Many of them moved onto other free energy scam, including rossi's. It is not in their personality to eat crow. Once a scam peter out they move onto the next.

 

[Aepervius]

I have asked others to show evidence of fraud such as a wire capable of carrying the extra power [only 136 amperes at 220v for 30kW; a subtle 00 awg copper wire would work after derating for multistrand insulated] or any instruments that have been shown to have been corrupted. How about the 30 kW of microwave power, beamed into a room/oven filled with people [I had to put that one in there because it was so idiotic].

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

Patience.

From which test are you speaking of ? Because the last one was with triphase 380, so your "220", well... Secondely there are far far more easier way to fraud. Rossi had a rat nest cable and was providing the tri phased plug going into a "proprietary" wave triac modulator. See upthread : there are far more likely way in the cabling or in the estimation of the power where the trick is.

Ask yourself why he will never truly allow an independent set up to be tested, or why he will not allow a new isotopic analyzis of his resulting "copper" ashes. Ask yourself that very hard.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

Pteridine, you have lost me. I admit it. So could you

a) define exactly which test you are talking about (there have, after all, been several - a link would be nice) and
b) please provide a link to the analysis which establishes 30 kW

Thanks in advance

 

[Dancing David]

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

Show me where Rossi allowed people to actually monitor the electrical lines into the machine and placed it in a still water bath to measure heat output. You can't because so far Rossi has not allowed a demonstration that actually allows for valid measurement of the electrical input. Why is that pteridine?
Why has he not preformed your standard calorimetry?


I imagine I will show your post in a year, and from the pattern so far Rossi will have no evidence to show.

 

[Horatius]

They find fault with whatever he does and how he does it. They have no evidence of fraud but say he must be scamming because he does not do what they wish him to do with respect to third party tests, open disclosure, academic studies, etc.

That highlighted word right there is why you fail at understanding our objections, and why you continue to fall foo what is (to the rest of us) an obvious scam.

The things people have listed here - proper calorimetry, proper monitoring of input power, proper monitoring of radiation output, proper analysis of the isotopes in his powder after test test - aren't just what we "wish" he would do; it's what he must do in order to do real science.

Proper measurements, done by the correct instruments, carried out in the proper manner, are absolutely essential to doing real science. Without such proper methods, there's simply no way we can, without being in the room ourselves, determine if he really has anything real happening.

Now, why would he, for over two years now, consistently refuse to do proper experiments? It's not like he hasn't heard about these problems; they've been raised in pretty much every single venue that has bothered to discuss his claims. The only reason he has is that he doesn't want to do proper experiments.

And why would he not want to do proper experiments? It's not because he doesn't want to convince people his technology works. If that were true, he wouldn't be doing any demonstrations at all. The only rational reason he could have for not wanting to do proper experiments is that he knows his technology doesn't work, and he's determined to hide that fact for as long as possible.

But, as has been said, we don't expect you to ever acknowledge that. I understand Rossi's perfectly rational reasons for carrying on as he has - the scam won't work otherwise. I despair at ever understanding your reasons for continuing to fall for his nonsense, however.

 

[maryyugo]

Well put, Horatius.

 

[Mister Earl]

The rush to judgment and premature condemnation by scientists and their sycophants on this board is unwarranted.

No, it is warranted. The guy's a fraud, he's using normal fraud tricks, and he's being treated like a fraud and pointed out to be a fraud. That's what this is. Myself and others have already stated, ad nauseum, what he would need to do to be taken seriously. But he will not and can no do this because he is a fraud.

Rossi travels his own path to exposition and development.

"He's not a fraud. He's just a special case where he doesn't need to prove his claims or let others replicate them. We should just take his word for it because he's a swell guy."
I'm thinking of a number between "one" and "no". You get two guesses.

The posters on this board are inconsequential to him and his process and they cannot dictate any terms or conditions.

Of course. Just as you can't stop us from calling the fraud a fraud. He can do whatever he likes. He's the one that'll have to deal with the jail time in the end.

They find fault with whatever he does and how he does it.

You are wrong. If he were to say, make and consume a sandwhich, I don't think anyone would fault him for his methods. Ingredients, perhaps.

They have no evidence of fraud but say he must be scamming because he does not do what they wish him to do with respect to third party tests, open disclosure, academic studies, etc.

No, he's a fraud because he's taking money on promises he cannot deliver. Period. That's fraud.

They speak of evidence and rigor but don't hold themselves to that standard when claiming fraud. He thinks that there is a fusion reaction and that is also a basis for attack; no 511keV gamma so there must be fraud. Assuming that because his explanation is flawed that there can be no heat generated is also flawed. Not surprisingly, there are many theories of what is happening with Rossi's experiments and those of others. Possibly they are all incorrect. If this works and can be commercialized, it may be used long before all the details of a theory are worked out.

Know what's an AWESOME way of finding the truth of this matter? Let him patent everything, give his device to actual scientists to test independantly, let others construct and test their own to confirm his results. It is supremely telling that he does not do so.

I have asked others to show evidence of fraud such as a wire capable of carrying the extra power [only 136 amperes at 220v for 30kW; a subtle 00 awg copper wire would work after derating for multistrand insulated] or any instruments that have been shown to have been corrupted. How about the 30 kW of microwave power, beamed into a room/oven filled with people [I had to put that one in there because it was so idiotic].

The onus is on him to prove his claims. He takes deliberate actions to avoid proving/disproving his claims. He conducts "tests" with arbitrary and pointless rules and does not permit others to approach or test the device. All interaction with his toy are only under situations of his choosing. This is not the actions of a man with a discovery. This is the action of a man afraid someone will see the man behind the curtain. This is the action of a fraud.

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

He's promising a device in exchange for donations now. A device he knows he cannot provide. Hence the stalling tactics. He's a fraud.

Patience.

"There's a sucker born every minute."

 

[ben m]

Show evidence of fraud, David. Not speculation. Not innuendo. Evidence. If there is no evidence, how can one claim fraud?

There are several undeniable lies already:

a) Rossi has lied repeatedly about the nickel/copper isotopes. On one hand, he showed an "isotope analysis" that he claimed to be copper from his reaction ashes. (It was non-radioactive, isotopically-natural copper.) On the other hand, he claims to be starting with 62Ni specifically to restrict the reaction to 63Cu for radioactivity reasons. I.e. he claims that his reaction ashes are either radioactive or isotopically-pure. One of these is a fraudulent claim. Rossi's defenders can speculate about which one was fraudulent, i.e. that he's lying to "protect" some secret, but there is no evidence for this, is there? (The speculation "they're both lies" is at least as good, and probably better.)

b) On video, we see Rossi holding a gently-misting pipe and claiming that it's evidence of 10kW (or whatever, I forget) of steam, which is obviously not true. This is a lie. Rossi's defenders can speculate about why he would point to a teacup's worth of steam and call it a kettle---lying to protect secrets, confused about the plumbing, mistaken about how much steam had condensed already---but there's no evidence for any of this, is there? (The speculation "there was no 10kW to begin with" is just as good, probably better.)