Merged Cold Fusion Claims

[phunk]

You sure that's it? Couldn't they have done a better job of hiding it? Rossi's had months, or up to about 2 years in fact, to set up his machine. He's a most ingenious man, as was shown by the Petroldragon affair. Is he going to make a blunder like that?

The picture wasn't Rossi's machine, I'm talking about the guy doing the demo with cheese to show how easy it is to fool people with an ammeter.

Rossi could easily use a similar method and hide it better.

 

[Aepervius]

While many speculate on fraud and incompetence of the various observers, no one can show fraud or incompetence on the part of the observers.

One can definitively show incompetence. The fact that some part were done in "secret" by Rossi, the fact that some stuff were not verified (no gamma radiation count, no DC count AFAIK initially, although now they pretend it was done even if it was not in the report, etc...).

You have all concluded that since you can't explain it or don't like the possibility, it can't be happening. Many on this board are the self-appointed final arbiters of what is possible and what is not possible and there is a mob mentality of attacking that which you do not understand and those that point out that you don't know what you don't know. Most amusing.

What's most amusing is that you don't understand the burden of proof. We have science that say "X", Rossi comes and says "it is not X it is Z" but provide no evidence verifiable independentely. *shrugh* anybody seeing your posting history can saee you bought it hard. I can imagine it is emotionally hard for you to let go.

You know the funny things ? I heard the same paragraph told to me about Steorn. And where are Steorn now ? No where.

You say that there can be no fusion [maybe there isn't] without 500+kev gamma. Rossi says that there is low-level gamma and neutrons.

And yet there is enough energy to get red hot. OK Rossi pretend to be shielding agaisnt 100 keV gamma... Now did you bother to calculate how much shielding would be needed ?
As far as I remember you need at least 1 cm 0.25 cm (*) of steel to stop 50% of the gamma radiation (or was it lead ?). His device has nowhere near 1 cm thickness steel. And if you want to stop 99.9% of the radiation (and let only 1/1024) you need at the very least 10 cm 2,5 cm. And even then you still have 0.1% of gamma radiation.

(*) 1 cm of iron/steel is for 500 KeV if one pretend to believe rossi , that would be a halving thickness of 0.25 cm at 100 KeV. That is still nowhere near what is claimed to be present in the gizmo.

"Rossi himself has claimed on a few occasions that gamma radiation is produced by the E-Cat, but only lower frequency gammas (< 100 keV) and that they are absorbed by the device shielding (and thus one source of heat energy). No gamma radiation has been detected outside the device during formal semi-independent testing."!

Somewhere on the web you can probably find the halving thickness of various material. Bottom line the gizmo of Rossi never offered that much shielding.

A more measured commentary is a draft google document at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JkYKd3Ipwz64ZuHzbdSdayk26VxOcQIo4K8E3t1Fmqs/mobilebasic?pli=1
This shows points and counterpoints.

"rossi said" is not even interresting. I could do the same with "Steorn said".

While Rossi and Defkalion may not have not proved their cases, no one who claims fraud has proved theirs, either. A few of those were memorably ludicrous such as the 30kW of beamed microwave radiation that must have been powering an earlier version of the ECat. "Guiseppe, si sta facendo caldo qui." Caldo, indeed.
Consider that Rossi may actually have what he claims and that a rush to judgement may have you eating crow cooked by an ECat. Be patient and all will be revealed....one way or another.

Rossi was convicted of Fraud. Rossi has an history of device misteriously not working or disappearing in a fire, and not being able to be reproduced. Ever.

I haven't YET eaten any crow, because I haven't YET seen any evidence whatsoever of anything which could not be simply expliqued by fraud. See that's the problem with no independent verification (especially since rossi dictate the condition and keep a lot of stuff for himself. Souper Sekreet)..

 

[Dancing David]

I don't argue by Google document; I use it as an example of a more measured response. This seems to be something that the scientists on this board don't seem to be able to come to grips with.
Have you ever considered that Rossi may have found something and misnamed it? That his theory, and those of many others, might not be correct?

Yes he may have, but until he allows others to measure the energy flow in and the heat input out with a still water bath, there is no data to suggest he has found 'something'. So far nothing. I seem to recall that two years ago there was going to be the big reveal, still hasn't happened.

It may be he has found something, there is no reason to believe so.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

And yet there is enough energy to get red hot.

Aepervius, I hate to seem to be taking pteridine's side, but you are essentially criticising a strawman position. Your insistence that Rossi's process, if real, must produce 511 kev gammas and neutrons ignores the details of his claims.

First, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am morally and intellectually certain that Rossi is a fake. Got it? He's a con artist. But.

Let us make two assumptions.

1) Rossi's "atomic catalyst" is by some bizarre twist of nature, real. Nickel-hydrogen fusion can take place with almost no input energy.
2) Rossi's nickel powder has been isotopically selected so that it consists only of 62Ni and 64Ni.

And don't let's get started on how absurd these are. The first is scientifically ludicrous; the second, economically. But let's make them anyways.

Rossi's process now consists of the conversion of 62Ni and 64Ni to 63Cu and 65Cu, respectively. Since both copper isotopes are stable, there is no beta decay and no 511 kev gamma radiation. Likewise, no neutron emission.

Furthermore, if someone on this forum has the nuclear physics chops, an energy analysis of the basic Ni + H = Cu fusion needs to be done. Since nickel is right at the peak of the curve of binding energy, such a process would produce only a small amount of energy, at least compared with hydrogen fusion, and might even be a net energy loss. Assuming a small energy gain, this would (arguably) manifest itself in the production of low-energy radiation. Such as something like 50 - 100 kev gamma radiation. Depends on how much energy is produced. Of course, if the net energy is negative, that kills Rossi's claims right there. One can only hope. But until the calculation is done there is no way of telling.

My point is not that Rossi is legit or even credible. It is that your technical objections are not consistent with the details of his claimed process and constitute a strawman argument.

And as for getting the container red hot? Radiation with an energy of one or two kev will do just fine. (It's called infrared). Actually, radiation of almost any energy will work, if there's enough of it.

 

[Aepervius]

It consisted of an AISI 310 steel cylinder, 3 mm thick and 33 mm in diameter, housing the powder charges

Even at 100 KeV that would only halve that gamma intensity.

The other cylinder is 10 cm in diameter.

No thickness is quoted. It is difficult to find the half thickness of Aluminium (ETA 1.5 cm) and Oxygen, but it msut be lower than Iron. Guessestimating it at 1 cm for halving thickness.

10 cm diameter, 5 cm radius, the inside tube was 3.3 cm diameter so rounding down to next 0.5 : 1.5 cm radius, the heating element I would say at least 0.5 mm radius, leaving at most 5-0.5-1.5=3 cm corundrum and silicon nitride.

So 3 cm, let us say this is 3 halving thickness at 100 KeV (carbon =2 cm ; Iron=0.25 cm). 3 mm steel is about 1 more halving thickness.

So we had 4 to 5 halvingthickness. Which means being generous that there should be at least 3 to 6% of the radiation generated by eCat at 100 keV going out. And that is generous because normally we would be at 500 keV meaning we would not even *one* halving thickness total all material counted.

no gamma was that ever detected.

 

[Aepervius]

Aepervius, I hate to seem to be taking pteridine's side, but you are essentially criticising a strawman position. Your insistence that Rossi's process, if real, must produce 511 kev gammas and neutrons ignores the details of his claims.

His claim is that 100 keV gamma are generated.

First, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am morally and intellectually certain that Rossi is a fake. Got it? He's a con artist. But.

Let us make two assumptions.

1) Rossi's "atomic catalyst" is by some bizarre twist of nature, real. Nickel-hydrogen fusion can take place with almost no input energy.
2) Rossi's nickel powder has been isotopically selected so that it consists only of 62Ni and 64Ni.

And don't let's get started on how absurd these are. The first is scientifically ludicrous; the second, economically. But let's make them anyways.

Rossi's process now consists of the conversion of 62Ni and 64Ni to 63Cu and 65Cu, respectively. Since both copper isotopes are stable, there is no beta decay and no 511 kev gamma radiation. Likewise, no neutron emission.

Furthermore, if someone on this forum has the nuclear physics chops, an energy analysis of the basic Ni + H = Cu fusion needs to be done. Since nickel is right at the peak of the curve of binding energy, such a process would produce only a small amount of energy, at least compared with hydrogen fusion, and might even be a net energy loss. Assuming a small energy gain, this would (arguably) manifest itself in the production of low-energy radiation. Such as something like 50 - 100 kev gamma radiation. Depends on how much energy is produced. Of course, if the net energy is negative, that kills Rossi's claims right there. One can only hope. But until the calculation is done there is no way of telling.

My point is not that Rossi is legit or even credible. It is that your technical objections are not consistent with the details of his claimed process and constitute a strawman argument.

And as for getting the container red hot? Radiation with an energy of one or two kev will do just fine. (It's called infrared). Actually, radiation of almost any energy will work, if there's enough of it.

1 to 2 KeV is Xray. Infrared is 1eV and lower.

See above I did the calculation with the wavelength specified by Rossi.

The problem is, it still does not jives.

 

[Craig B]

The picture wasn't Rossi's machine, I'm talking about the guy doing the demo with cheese to show how easy it is to fool people with an ammeter.

Rossi could easily use a similar method and hide it better.

OK. Thanks, I misunderstood.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

1 to 2 KeV is Xray. Infrared is 1eV and lower.

Ack! you're correct, of course, I misread the calculator. Sorry. But the point stands: almost any frequency will do the job if there's enough of it.

The problem is, it still does not jives.

Until you know what the fusion ought to produce, there's no way to tell for sure.

 

[Aepervius]

Ack! you're correct, of course, I misread the calculator. Sorry. But the point stands: almost any frequency will do the job if there's enough of it.

That's true, but see once you say it is IR, you get *another* problem : how to get IR photon only from a reaction as energytic as to produce multi KeV energy.

Look , I would be ready to accept a new effects, a new reaction. But not without evidence. And the hidding, the fact rossi is a known fraudster, the theater where rossi lead any test by the nose, all that are enough to dismiss any claim not shored up by evidence. So we have to go by what WE do know right now.

I am sorry, but it was rossi claim anyway that 100 KeV gamma was created. It was his claim it was shielded, when it obviously cannot be. It was NOT his claim to create 100000's of IR photon in his creation.

Until you know what the fusion ought to produce, there's no way to tell for sure.

Sure we do know. Science now says 512 KeV gamma photon. Rossi saxys 100 keV. See upthread.

Even worst is that the isotopic composition of the resulting reaction should be a mess of isotopic element.

It would be reeeallly easy for Rossi to prove his claim : take a quantity X of normal nickel with known natural isotopic composition, react for whatever time he wants, then give the rest to isotopic analyzis , mass spectroscopy. Include a NDA if you want, melt it down to exclude special pretend "fine structure" in the powder (anotehr claim by rossi at one point).

Eh voila. Easily demonstrated.

Now ask yourself why he did not do that recentely. (heck if I recall correctely the initial analyzis of what he gave as copper sample showed *normal* isotopic copper composition which would be utterly impossible starting from natural Ni with the pretend reaction. I think Rossi did not realize such analzis was possible or otherwise would have stopped it. Now you know why such analyszis will not be allowed ever again).

 

[ben m]

Furthermore, if someone on this forum has the nuclear physics chops, an energy analysis of the basic Ni + H = Cu fusion needs to be done. Since nickel is right at the peak of the curve of binding energy, such a process would produce only a small amount of energy, at least compared with hydrogen fusion, and might even be a net energy loss. Assuming a small energy gain, this would (arguably) manifest itself in the production of low-energy radiation. Such as something like 50 - 100 kev gamma radiation. Depends on how much energy is produced. Of course, if the net energy is negative, that kills Rossi's claims right there. One can only hope. But until the calculation is done there is no way of telling.

The analysis is pretty easy. 62Ni has a mass defect of -66.74 MeV. Hydrogen has a mass defect of 7.28 MeV. 63Cu has a mass defect of -65.58 MeV. Therefore you gain 6.12 MeV if you can fuse them.

The way that you "gain energy" in fusion is that the system (p+62Ni), no matter how you squeeze it together, does not overlap with the wavefunction of the 63Ni ground state. Instead, it overlaps with the wavefunction of some 63Ni excited state. "Fusion" consists simply of entering the excited state (generally, with emission of a prompt photon), and then decaying from there by gamma emission. There are a lot of choices of which gammas and which levels you go through, but none of them agree with the Rossi excuse. The problem: the first excited state of 63Ni is already 670 keV above the ground state. Every single known 63Ni* decay involves one or more gammas above 670 keV.

(And that 670 keV state is almost certainly an excitation of a neutron shell. Fusion will start by populating an excited proton shell, which I'd expect to have a first excited state in the 2-MeV ballpark. If I have time tomorrow I'll crack out my Goeppert Mayer and and work out a gamma ray spectrum for the whole system in the single-particle shell model approximation.)

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

That's true, but see once you say it is IR, you get *another* problem : how to get IR photon only from a reaction as energytic as to produce multi KeV energy.

And, as I pointed out, there was no guarantee that the reaction would in fact produce multi-keV energy. Fortunately, ben_m has laid that one to rest.

I am sorry, but it was rossi claim anyway that 100 KeV gamma was created. It was his claim it was shielded, when it obviously cannot be. It was NOT his claim to create 100000's of IR photon in his creation.

First, why are you sorry? Or did you miss the fact that I think, and have always thought, that he's a fake?

In (much) earlier posts I pointed out exactly the same problems, so you're preaching to the choir here. Furthermore, you've missed the best part. Rossi has claimed that gamma radiation produced by a pile of powder is reliably anisotropic, and that certain aspect angles produce an energy spectrum which can be used to identify the "atomic catalyst".

Sure we do know. Science now says 512 KeV gamma photon. Rossi saxys 100 keV. See upthread.

Actually, science (in the form of ben_m) says otherwise. See his latest. Why the insistence on 511 keV? Because that's characteristic of beta decay? And who says that a properly managed (isotopically restricted) fuel would undergo beta decay?

Even worst is that the isotopic composition of the resulting reaction should be a mess of isotopic element.

Aaand one more time - not if he does major processing of his fuel.

It would be reeeallly easy for Rossi to prove his claim : take a quantity X of normal nickel with known natural isotopic composition, react for whatever time he wants, then give the rest to isotopic analyzis , mass spectroscopy. Include a NDA if you want, melt it down to exclude special pretend "fine structure" in the powder (anotehr claim by rossi at one point).

Eh voila. Easily demonstrated.

Aaand one more time - you're preaching to the choir here.

Now ask yourself why he did not do that recentely. (heck if I recall correctely the initial analyzis of what he gave as copper sample showed *normal* isotopic copper composition which would be utterly impossible starting from natural Ni with the pretend reaction. I think Rossi did not realize such analzis was possible or otherwise would have stopped it. Now you know why such analyszis will not be allowed ever again).

Yeah. He has a smattering of basic nuclear physics, and the ability to appeal to the fantasies of his audience. It's sort of like a guy telling an ugly girl he loves her - she really ought to know better, but giving up the fantasy is too painful, so she puts up with his bad behavior. And she never, never, never admits that there is anything wrong, even getting angry and jumping to his defense if his behavior is criticized by others. Sound familiar?

In the early days, Rossi didn't seem to realize that a lot of science is tightly connected, and you can't just toss off a claim and not have it run smack up against some inconvenient fact. For instance, when the long-term radiation from 59Cu was pointed out, he responded "Of course we remove the 58 nickel", and then never mentioned the subject again. And since he tightly controls the questions which appear on his blog, it's as if the subject is never brought up again. It's rather Orwellian, actually.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

The analysis is pretty easy. 62Ni has a mass defect of -66.74 MeV. Hydrogen has a mass defect of 7.28 MeV. 63Cu has a mass defect of -65.58 MeV. Therefore you gain 6.12 MeV if you can fuse them.

Thank you ben. That was exactly what I wanted to know.

If I have time tomorrow I'll crack out my Goeppert Mayer and and work out a gamma ray spectrum for the whole system in the single-particle shell model approximation.)

Excellent. I look forward to it.

 

[BenBurch]

OK, if this works, why hasn't GE bought it and started selling it to the Navy?

 

[Dr.Sid]

OK, if this works, why hasn't GE bought it and started selling it to the Navy?

They do, but it's secret .. of course ..

 

[Craig B]

OK, if this works, why hasn't GE bought it and started selling it to the Navy?

The notion of secret (natch!) military buyers has been bandied about by Rossi and his fanboys. No evidence of course. But we wouldn't expect any, would we?

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

The notion of secret (natch!) military buyers has been bandied about by Rossi and his fanboys. No evidence of course. But we wouldn't expect any, would we?

In the spirit of objective fairness, I ought to point out that there actually is a potential military buyer - SOCOM. The special forces folks have established a parallel purchasing authority which allows them to buy just about anything they think they need without normal procedures, and it seems reasonable that they might be interested in portable heaters such as the ecat.

The lack of normal checks on purchase allows the SF to quickly buy specialized gear and weapons without waiting for glacial bureaucratic processes of testing and approval, but it has a downside. Special forces attracts a lot of very intelligent people, but not much in the way of focused, highly intellectual researchers (read, pencil-necked geeks). So for unconventional technical equipment, they are pretty much at the mercy of whoever is peddling it. This has resulted in some major fraud, the best-known example being the Sniffex http://www.propublica.org/article/sec-bomb-detector-bought-by-military-was-front-for-scam-717 debacle.

So. If SOCOM can get scammed into buying divining rods (at $6K per), can you really rule out their buying an ecat?

 

[Craig B]

... So. If SOCOM can get scammed into buying divining rods (at $6K per), can you really rule out their buying an ecat?

I don't believe that the 1 MW e-cat exists in any form that would persuade even the most moronic doughboy to reach for his wallet.

 

[tsig]

OK, if this works, why hasn't GE bought it and started selling it to the Navy?

Nuclear subs would be instantly obsolete.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Nuclear subs would be instantly obsolete.

In what aspect ? Fission gives them all they need. You could build smaller, cheaper and safer subs, but it would be no revolution, as the fission reactor was.

 

[WhatRoughBeast]

I don't believe that the 1 MW e-cat exists in any form that would persuade even the most moronic doughboy to reach for his wallet.

What, you think that just because somebody's in the military they can't be a fanboy? I suspect you've never served.