Merged Cold Fusion Claims

Status
Not open for further replies.
A "secret waveform" is needed to "activate" mystery powder? By doing extra-super-special resistive heating? Wow.

A "trade secret waveform produced" with a TRIAC, at that.

TRIAC do one thing: they turn on, and stay on until current drops below some fixed threshold. All you can control is when they turn on. Your choices for the resulting waveform are...rather limited:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Phase_control.svg/471px-Phase_control.svg.png

One noteworthy issue is that the resulting waveform can be extremely non-sinusoidal, which can lead to inaccurate measurements from instrumentation that assumes sinusoidal waveforms.
 
Also, you have a cylinder whose external surface was at 700 degrees and cooling radiatively. Try to get that much heat to flow out of a nickel powder. It won't, the powder will melt first. So much for "special nanocrystalline nickel" or whatever it was.

Y'know, even if you think there's nothing fraudulent in the rest of the setup, this might be the kicker. They're claiming a miracle of thermodynamics here:

a) A SiN tube, cooled by free convection, which reached 700C and 2000kW.
b) The heat source was inside the SiN, conducting through it, so clearly the interior was somewhat hotter.
c) There was apparently an air gap between the SiN cylinder and some sort of sapphire cylinder. The sapphire cylinder must have been even hotter to push 2000W across this air gap.
d) There's another thermal resistance (smaller, but not negligible) required to push heat across the sapphire ...
e) Inside another air gap is a steel surface, hotter still to push heat across the air gap to the already-hot sapphire ...
f) Inside the steel is supposedly 300mg (i.e a few cubic millimeters) of loose powdered nickel (!) which has to be SO HOT that it conducts or radiates 2000W to its steel shell.

That's quite a heat transfer problem---cooling a fuel material that outputs 6MW/kg? That's 100-1000 times the power density (10^3--10^4) of the fuel pellets in a typical nuclear reactor. I don't know about your local reactor engineers, but my local reactor engineers recommend using a billion dollars' worth of really expensive coolant pumps, high-thermal-conductivity coatings, etc., to prevent their fuel from melting down.

Rossi claims to have taken a spoonful of fuel 1000 times more intense, and stuck it in a tube, wrapped it in multiple ceramic blankets, and it sorta just worked. Huh.

Note that there's no heat-transfer difficulty if the thing was heated by the resistors.


a) A SiN tube, cooled by free convection, which reached 700C and 2000kW.
b) The heat source was inside the SiN, conducting through it, so clearly the interior was somewhat hotter.
c) The sapphire tube was heated by resistors to a somewhat hotter temperature.
d) The useless thing inside (steel tube, nickel powder if any, etc.) was in equilibrium with the resistor-heated tube around it.
 
Me too. And I have to say I don't quite trust the impartiality here. But I'm not so sceptical that I'm going to dismiss scientific evidence.

You're right. However, in this case it's not simply a matter of checking the scientific evidence. This case is somewhat unusual, in that there is a high risk of deliberate fraud. The normal scientific process is not always that good at detecting fraud (which is one of Randi's main teachings), so if we suspect the possibility of fraud, we need to perform due diligence to exclude it.

The paper while badly written, making use of bizarre experimental methods, and having a discussion full of wrong interpretations, nevertheless makes a number of measurements which are difficult to dismiss.

- The power meter is of good quality and appropriate for measuring complex waveforms.
- The IR thermometry, while poorly calibrated, and prone to a number of unaccounted errors, is unlikely to be bad enough to dismiss the claim of "anomalous" heat.
- The fact that the device "core" could not be examined without first being taken to another facility and returned, is odd, but given the size of the core, and level of anomalous heat, a known energy source could not have been concealed within it, even if sleight of hand had meant that the core was swapped prior to examination.

This leads us to 2 possible conclusions:
1. There is an unknown source of energy within the e-cat.
2. There is an unrecognised and unmonitored method of delivering energy to the e-cat.

2 is clearly more likely and needs to be excluded with care, particularly given the circumstance where there is a high risk of fraud.

So, if I were trying to smuggle in energy, how would I do it. Lasers? RF transmitters? Possible, but dangerous and expensive.

What about confusing an electricity meter with capacitors, complex waveforms etc.? It's certainly possible to slow or reverse a mechanical electricity meter with capacitors, but modern electronic meters will generally see through this sort of tampering. Same with waveforms. Most electronic meters will accurately measure even the most complex waveforms. What about DC currents? Possible, but technically difficult, and there is the problem that you need also to provide a DC voltage.

What about mislabelling or otherwise tricking the experimenters into measuring the wrong thing? This is where it gets very easy. When you connect an electricity meter, you connect a voltage probe and a current probe to each "phase" that you wish to measure. To smuggle in a near limitless supply of
energy, we simply need to convince our examiners to connect the meter to certain wires, while using other wires to carry the power.

Here's how I'd do it: A normal 3 phase power lead has 5 cores, and 5 pins on the plug. Neutral, Phase (hot/Live) 1, Phase 2, Phase 3 and Earth/Ground. Keep P1, P2 and P3 connected as usual, and label/colour code them appropriately. Perhaps, I'll conveniently separate the wires out, ready to have probes connected. Meanwhile, I'll disconnect the earth wire, and rewire it as a "secret" phase wire.

I'll use my "trade secret" power supply, to suck power from the monitored phases as and when required, to make things look good. But it will also suck power from my "stealth phase" wire, cunningly disguised as a safety earth.

Of course, the current flowing in my stealth wire, will appear in the neutral wire - but that's alright, you don't need to measure neutral current to measure power - in fact most power meters *don't* measure the neutral current, because it is only in rare conditions that measuring it is of any use (and energy metering is not one).

So, do we have any evidence that this sort of scam might have been at play? Well, yes, kinda. There is some weak circumstantial evidence which suggests something like this may have been going on.

The experimenters say they were not able to measure the power flowing from the power supply unit to the e-cat device, during the experiments showing "anomalous" power. However, for the control run, they were freely permitted to connect their meter to the output of the power supply, and verify the power flows. Of course, had this type of connection been permitted during the real "experiment" then any attempt to smuggle in electrical energy would have been obvious.
 
You know the funny thing ? This is the same shenanigan than we had years ago when the circus started.

Nothing changed. Not even the actor in the play. Not even the man behind the curtain, Rossi, imposing condition prone to cheating.

And still the choir sing his praise.
 
You know the funny thing ? This is the same shenanigan than we had years ago when the circus started.

Nothing changed. Not even the actor in the play. Not even the man behind the curtain, Rossi, imposing condition prone to cheating.

And still the choir sing his praise.
The "independent" examiners even include individuals associated with these earlier tests. As to motive: a pro-Rossi blogger notes in http://nickelpower.org/2013/05/20/the-independent-report-is-here/#comment-22553
Since this test is finally good enough to show a result, even if not to the level that Rossi promised, then I’d think Rossi’s finances are now safe and his financiers somewhat mollified,
The one difference is that on previous occasions the contraption puffed steam. This time it makes a cylinder go red hot, which is indeed more impressive.
 
The one difference is that on previous occasions the contraption puffed steam. This time it makes a cylinder go red hot, which is indeed more impressive.

If you're impressed by kettles without thermostatic cut offs.
 
I'm sure that, especially given all the eminent scientists and wealthy investment interests involved, these concerns have been addressed.
Rossi would be an out and out fool to reveal more than he has at this point.

Almost two years ago, and still as valid now as it was then.

Rossi would be a fool to reveal that he is a charlatan, then the cash flow would stop.

If it was real then he would be richer than Bill Gates in preproduction. He would sell more shares at higher prices than Facebook.

Look smoke, look shiny lights!
 
This leads us to 2 possible conclusions:
1. There is an unknown source of energy within the e-cat.
2. There is an unrecognised and unmonitored method of delivering energy to the e-cat.

2 is clearly more likely and needs to be excluded with care, particularly given the circumstance where there is a high risk of fraud.

So, if I were trying to smuggle in energy, how would I do it. Lasers? RF transmitters? Possible, but dangerous and expensive.

What about confusing an electricity meter with capacitors, complex waveforms etc.? It's certainly possible to slow or reverse a mechanical electricity meter with capacitors, but modern electronic meters will generally see through this sort of tampering.

Here is how Rossi has fooled the bunch of physicist this time:

He has given them the thick insulated cables to measure with a
"clamp ammeters" (that is stated in their paper and can be seen on their setup) These clamps simply "hug" the cable from the outside and don't
touch any wires.
This type of measurement uses magnetic field created by the current flowing trough a wire. The calculation of the current has an assumption of a single, non-wound and non-shielded wire. However, internal structure of the cables used in this setup were not exposed. It can be seen that they are thick enough to hide things like shielding, winding, or even ferrite rings that could completely distort the magnetic fields and so the validity of the measurement.
It looks like while focusing a lot on temperature measurement, they got fooled by simple electric measurement distortion. Cables are definitely thick enough to deliver several kW of power while apparent "measured" current would be much less if magnetic field that is being measured is partly shielded. Input power underestimated - "unexplained energy" appears... Rossi did it again!
 
@Ben M

Where does the 2000 kW figure come from? Maybe 2 kW but they don't claim 2000, do they? Also what's a SiN tube?
 
@Ben M

Where does the 2000 kW figure come from? Maybe 2 kW but they don't claim 2000, do they? Also what's a SiN tube?

Sorry, that's a typo in the post. Yes, it's 2kW. (And I typed it correctly in the calculations with which I justify my objection.) Their two ceramic tubes are described as silicon nitride (SiN) and corundum (Al2O3 aka sapphire) respectively, both of which are common engineering ceramics.
 
So Ben, if you are experienced with infrared images (or anyone who is), what would you expect their figures 3, 7, and 8 in their paper to look like if they had a tubular source of heat inside, measuring 3mm x 33cm and emitting about 2kW? Would that show through the wall to the IR camera?

Their paper is at ecat[dot]com/files/Indication-of-anomalous-heat-energy-production-in-a-reactor-device.pdf

(the system won't let me post actual links)
 
Last edited:
Here is how Rossi has fooled the bunch of physicist this time:

He has given them the thick insulated cables to measure with a
"clamp ammeters" (that is stated in their paper and can be seen on their setup) These clamps simply "hug" the cable from the outside and don't
touch any wires.

Damn, you're right. I missed that. I'm kind of shocked.

It's worse than that---these particular clamp ammeters, like most such devices, only measure AC. All Rossi had to do is to use a rectifier in his "mysterious triac box"; the box could easily be made to deliver 2kW DC while only allowing 360W "ripple" to be measurable on the AC instrument.

There's a lesson here, folks. There is one way and only one way to do a fraud-proof power measurement: you intercept all conductors between the device and ground with shunt resistors. You read out both ends of each resistor with an oscilloscope. If there's a connection (a table, a frame, a chassis, etc.) that the inventor insists is "grounded", attach a grounding strap to it and leave it there during the entire experiment. There is, as far as I know, no way to hide electrical power input to such a setup.
 
Just a niggle here, Ben. Their December test used the clamp on ammeters between the control box and the device. For the March test, they placed the ammeters on the cables running between the mains supply and the control box.

Now I would not put it past Rossi to alter his mains supply. After all, he "goosed" the power in a previous experiment and got caught as you can see here:

news.newenergytimes[dot]net/2011/08/05/reviewing-ny-teknik-video-did-rossi-play-with-power-setting/

He would have had to know when to up the power but that's not too hard. A stooge could tell him or he could simply view the whole proceedings in the comfort of his oil-heated office on closed circuit TV.

When will these so-called scientists and skeptics learn? You can't do an "independent" experiment when you use the claimant's lab and equipment! And his mains power source.
 
So Ben, if you are experienced with infrared images (or anyone who is), what would you expect their figures 3, 7, and 8 in their paper to look like if they had a tubular source of heat inside, measuring 3mm x 33cm and emitting about 2kW? Would that show through the wall to the IR camera?

Everything involved (ceramics & steel) is opaque to IR. So, the question is "if the interior heat source looks like X, does the exterior get uniformly or nonuniformly hot?" (Some non-temperature-related nonuniformity could be created by changes in the emissivity, but I doubt this matters.) Roughly speaking, I'd expect the steel to have a high enough conductivity (and the air gaps low enough) that the steel reaches a uniform-ish temperature no matter what shape the heat source is. So, no, I don't think anything would show through.
 
A couple of more reviews of the Levi et. al. experiment:
The E-Cat is back, and people are still falling for it!
I’m done pretending that this is science, or that the “data” presented here is scientifically valid. If this were an undergraduate science experiment, I’d give the kids an F, and have them see me. There’s no valid information contained here, just the assumption of success, the reliance on supplied data, and ballpark estimates that appear to be supplied “from the manufacturer.”

Tommaso Dorigo impressed by a cold fusion paper
To summarize, the preprint is complete rubbish and the authors are probably linked to Andrea Rossi personally ...
As you can see neither author is impressed with the experiment.
 
Damn, you're right. I missed that. I'm kind of shocked.

It's worse than that---these particular clamp ammeters, like most such devices, only measure AC. All Rossi had to do is to use a rectifier in his "mysterious triac box"; the box could easily be made to deliver 2kW DC while only allowing 360W "ripple" to be measurable on the AC instrument.
Bwahahahaha. Wow, I'm shocked too. I was thinking all those clever things such as feeding it high frequency AC, while, they just used clamp meters, and AC ones at that, not even DC clamp meters! Still, just *how in the world* can one think themselves a physicist if they do not ****** know how clamp meters work. I mean, yes, yes, they're not electricians, what ever, if you're a scientist you shouldn't be living in a magic filled world where any device you use is 100% magical.

If you come to someone's lab by the way you shouldn't even use DC clamp meters, because one could put two wires into what you think is 1 wire cable)
There's a lesson here, folks. There is one way and only one way to do a fraud-proof power measurement: you intercept all conductors between the device and ground with shunt resistors. You read out both ends of each resistor with an oscilloscope. If there's a connection (a table, a frame, a chassis, etc.) that the inventor insists is "grounded", attach a grounding strap to it and leave it there during the entire experiment. There is, as far as I know, no way to hide electrical power input to such a setup.
But you see, that's why the waveform is industry trade secret! You can't use the scope or you'll learn the secret.

For the March test, they placed the ammeters on the cables running between the mains supply and the control box.
You can use half-wave rectifier with an inductance in series with it... you can consume DC current from AC supply, it's just that to avoid saturating the transformer you'd be advised to connect a load of opposite polarity to another outlet. You don't even need explicit rectifier, you can switch your triac to get that.
 
Last edited:
Welcome here maryyugo! We met on Nickelpower if I remember correctly, before you were banned from it. I have survived there (so far).

Yup. Hi Craig. It's amazing how Rossi keeps trucking along bamboozling more and more people all the time like some demented energizer bunny of a scammer. :)
 
The kicker for me is that it it's supposed to produce lots of heat but cools down unless warmed up by an external source... :boggled:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom